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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 14, 2015 4:24:18 GMT -5
[…] the fact that the first 2 regular issues of Spidey have 2 stories each of the size a lead story in AF would have been makes me wonder if those stories were done thinking Spidey would be the lead in AF with other content filling the book rather than as a separate feature called Amazing Spider-Man, and if the first 2 issues doubled up the stories done that way to use them up before full length stories began to appear in #3… -M It certainly feels like they were done at the same time. Subsequent issues were more polished, and progressively so, until they peaked around 1965.
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 14, 2015 4:45:32 GMT -5
His webbing proved to be completely useless in this battle and he only won due to more trickery rather than straightforward superheroics. […] Flash is meaner than ever but also has a respect for heroism, not just Spidey's but his teacher's, showing that he's not exactly a bad guy. Ditko's use of a nine panel grid in his stories, particularly Spider-Man, is famous and it is issues like this that prompted Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore to use the same grid in Watchmen. He beat him using his brain, again. His scientific mind was put to work much more, in the Ditko days. Flash was a bully, but also a Spider-Man fan. That posed the problem of the reader seeing himself in the story, portrayed by a bad guy. The solution was to make the character less of a bully and focus on the Spider-Man fan part, which ultimately won. I remember Dave Gibbons talking about the use of the nine panel grid, IIRC it was just a question of keeping the storytelling simple, given the complexity of the script. They could very well have been influenced by Ditko's Spidey, but I don't remember an explicit admission.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Feb 14, 2015 4:57:11 GMT -5
I remember Dave Gibbons talking about the use of the nine panel grid, IIRC it was just a question of keeping the storytelling simple, given the complexity of the script. They could very well have been influenced by Ditko's Spidey, but I don't remember an explicit admission. In "Watching the Watchmen" Gibbons says the grid was a throwback to the Steve Ditko Spider-Man stories, the Harvey Kurtzman EC stories and European comics, which would distinguish Watchmen visually from the comics of the day. It providing a steady foundation for the pacing of the story was another benefit.
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 14, 2015 5:30:28 GMT -5
I remember Dave Gibbons talking about the use of the nine panel grid, IIRC it was just a question of keeping the storytelling simple, given the complexity of the script. They could very well have been influenced by Ditko's Spidey, but I don't remember an explicit admission. In "Watching the Watchmen" Gibbons says the grid was a throwback to the Steve Ditko Spider-Man stories, the Harvey Kurtzman EC stories and European comics, which would distinguish Watchmen visually from the comics of the day. It providing a steady foundation for the pacing of the story was another benefit. Good to know.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Feb 14, 2015 5:48:27 GMT -5
The Amazing Spider-Man #5 (October 1963) "Marked For Destruction By Doctor Doom!" Script: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko Letters: Sam Rosen Cover: Steve Ditko Summary: At a bowling alley Flash, Liz, their friends and Peter (why is Peter with them?) watch a Spider-Man television special sponsored by J. Jonah Jameson. Flash thinks Spider-Man is the coolest and Liz thinks he's dreamy while Peter badmouths Spidey to avoid being suspected (although really, who would suspect Peter even if he was a fan of Spidey?). Flash tells Pete to buzz off while Dr Doom of all people finishes watching the special in some lair across town. Recently humiliated by his defeat at the hands of the Fantastic Four, he believes he could best them if he had Spider-Man as an ally. Using a captured spider he broadcasts a signal over Peter's spider sense. Spidey follows the signal to its source and finds Doctor Doom. The two talk and Doom tries to play to Spidey's alienation to suggest that as outcasts they'd be a perfect team, although secretly he plans to kill him as soon as they've killed the Fantastic Four. Spidey thinks it's a funny a idea but refuses and Doom declares him to be a deadly enemy. Spidey webs him up but it was only a Doombot. The real Doom emerges and they briefly fight before Spidey ends up out the window and in the river. Doom decides Spidey would be better used as bait in a trap for the FF. Figuring that the best way to catch Spidey would be to learn his identity he sets out to do just that as sets off an explosion in the building. Peter is able to snap a couple pics and leaves. At the Bugle Jameson is happy to pay for the photos but really wants more shots of Spider-Man to blame the explosion on him. Peter says people are beginning to question Jonah's motives for hating Spider-man and Betty says that people are even suspecting JJJ is jealous. Peter takes note of his new ally and realizes how pretty she is (subtle, Stan). Jonah insists that he rails against Spider-Man solely to sell papers. Elsewhere, Flash Thompson is prancing around in a Spider-Man costume to scare Peter as payback for knocking on Spider-Man. Of course, the idiot just so happened to pick the time where a freakin megalomaniacal third-world dictator is tracking Spidey down. Using a device that reads "spider impulses" Doom will track Spidey down in his civilian guise and capture him. Out of sheer luck, Peter is walking down the sidewalk and Flash (in costume) is on the other side ready to scare him while Doom closes in. Seeing Flash, Doom assumes he's the real Spidey and captures him. At home Aunt May's Ed Sullivan broadcast is interrupted by Doom, who brags to the Fantastic Four about having "Spidey" as a captive. If the FF don't disband and surrender to Doom he will kill "Spider-Man." Aunt May, ever the sweetheart, is happy that Spidey will finally get killed while Peter can only wonder how Doom really has. His question is answered immediately by Liz calling up terrified and explaining that Flash has disappeared after trying to pull a prank on "somebody." Peter hangs up, finally glad to be done with Flash. Of course, his conscience hits about two seconds later and he heads out to save Flash. Or he would, if Aunt May didn't forbid him from leaving the house (maybe Peter really is a nice guy but I'm only five issues in and I've had just about all I can stand of this bat). Peter goes down to the basement and removes the master fuse so Aunt May has no choice but to send him to buy a new one. Freed from his beloved smother, Spidey begins the hunt for Doom. For Doom to interrupt a broadcast like that he would need quite a bit of power. His hideout will be near a significant source of power, of which there are only a few in the city. He swings around until his spider sense picks something up and sure enough he ends up at an abandoned factory. Shimmying down an air vent Spidey faces Doom once more. Doom lays out every trick in the boot: Booby traps, Doombots, ray guns, etc and Spidey mixes it up as much as he can but neither side can get a real advantage. The encounter ends when the Fantastic Four shows up and Doom flees. Spidey, remembering he left Aunt May alone at home, leaves suddenly as well. The FF find Flash and the Torch can tell right away he's an imposter, although Reed finds some web and believes Spider-Man had been present as well. At home Peter has to tell Aunt May he was too frightened to go buy a new fuse, while at the Bugle he gets an earful from JJJ about not getting pictures. Betty Brant tells Pete she thinks he's wonderful and Peter thinks about how on the way to school. He assumes Flash would be too humiliated to show up but on the contrary, Flash is big man on campus for having faced Dr Doom. Liz tells Peter she doesn't blame him for being jealous of Flash's masculinity. Observations: For the third time in five issues Peter encounters the Fantastic Four. By this point it's beginning to get a little tiring as it detracts from the grounded nature of the stories. Spidey facing Dr Doom is a neat idea and Ditko clearly has a ball drawing all of Doom's weaponry but I'd rather have seen another new villain. The fight scene between the two is long but has no resolution, as they just fight and fight until it's interrupted. I'm not a fan of action for action's sake so this sort of thing bugs me. The Peter Parker side of things is more interesting. Liz Allan is friendlier to Peter than she had been previously while Betty Brant is obviously being set up as a love interest. Flash's bullying has tamed further. Rather than just bullying Peter for being a nerd he bullies him for not being a fan of Spider-Man, and his big prank is dressing up in a Spider-Man costume. Speaking of which, it was nice on Ditko's part to draw Flash's costume as being slightly loose and ill-fitting. A subtle touch. The "will he or won't he" hero/villain dynamic with Peter pops up again. He isn't self-righteous enough not to toy with the idea of turning against the world or letting Flash Thompson die but ultimately he is too much of a good guy to seriously consider it. This early storyline is pretty much wrapped. JJJ's motivations for tackling Spider-Man are questioned again. In ASM #1 he was a moral crusader who wanted children to worship real heroes instead of celebrities. In the last few issues he has seen Spidey as a legitimate criminal. Now he claims to be driven by profit alone, although there are rumors that he is jealous of Spidey. Whether this inconsistency is accidental or intentional remains to be seen. Overall I think this one is a bit of a dud. The social stuff works but the actual superhero plot just feels weak to me. 3/5Other notes: - Doom, like Chameleon, knows about Peter's spider sense. I can only assume that in the Marvel universe spiders really do have a sixth sense. - When The Thing is criticizing Spider-Man for being an amateur the Human Torch defends him. So far their relationship has been quite friendly. - This issue contains a flashback to the end of Fantastic Four #17, the last time the FF faced Doom.
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 14, 2015 6:15:17 GMT -5
For the third time in five issues Peter encounters the Fantastic Four. […] it was nice on Ditko's part to draw Flash's costume as being slightly loose and ill-fitting. A subtle touch. They were Marvel's flagship, and were seen everywhere. As the Spider-Man franchise consolidated on its own, they slowly faded out. That little detail, was what I enjoyed more about the whole comic.
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Post by spoon on Feb 14, 2015 9:54:09 GMT -5
I'm curious-after reading the first review I dragged out my Masterworks and reread AF#15. On the last page editorial they talk about Spidey continuing as a lead feature in Amazing Fantasy moving forward (but we all know AF #15 was the last issue). Stan has repeatedly told the story of using the "last issue" of AF to put Spidey out there because no one cared what the content was, it was a "last issue." But the editorial page seems to contradict that, and the fact that the first 2 regular issues of Spidey have 2 stories each of the size a lead story in AF would have been makes me wonder if those stories were done thinking Spidey would be the lead in AF with other content filling the book rather than as a seperate feature called Amazing Spider-Man, and if the first 2 issues doubled up the stories done that way to use them up before full length stories began to appear in #3... -M Yes, I've been skeptical of Stan's account for a while that Spider-Man, because I know there was a note about continuing the feature. My reprint in an Essential, which doesn't seem to include the note, but I'm pretty sure I recall it from somewhere. Stan Lee himself says that his memory is faulty and that he's repeated certain stories so much that he's not sure anymore if they are true. Similarly, I'm skeptical of Stan's account that Spider-Man saw a fly crawling on the wall and went through names like Fly-Man and Mosquito-Man before deciding on Spider-Man. It seems more an attempt to create what he thought would be an interesting invention story. First, I don't see flies and mosquitoes crawling on walls. They usually land at one spot and take off from the same spot. Second, spiders are creatures that fascinating to lots of people, beyond those interested in Spider-Man. Few people seem to be fascinated by flies and mosquitoes. I find it implausible that he considered those boring insects before stumbling upon using a spider.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Feb 14, 2015 10:59:08 GMT -5
The Amazing Spider-Man #6 (November 1963) "Face-To-Face With The Lizard!" Script: Stan Lee Art: Steve Ditko Letters: Art Simek Cover: Steve Ditko Summary: In a Florida everglades a lizard man chases humans out of a swamp. Bullets don't affect it and it has super strength. News of the human lizard spreads throughout the country. In New York Spider-Man sees the headline of the latest edition of the Daily Bugle: "The Bugle Challenges Spider-Man To Defeat The Lizard!" Peter decides thats actually a pretty good idea, so he goes to JJJ to see if he can get flown down to Florida to take photos of the Lizard. Unfortunately, JJJ doesn't believe the Lizard actually exists and just used the headline to make cash. And if there was a Lizard Spider-Man would be too cowardly to face him. On his way out of the office Betty tells Peter that she agrees with him. The next day Peter visits the Natural History Museum to hear a lecture on dinosaurs. Flash and Liz are there as well. As the lecturer describes the awesome physical attributes of dinosaurs Peter's spider sense tingles and he notices two thieves sneaking out of the mineral exhibit. Peter breaks away from the group and sneaks off to change. But while he's gone they're detected by a guard and take Liz hostage! Spidey leaps down and smokes them both with one hit. He grabs Liz as she falls and sweet talks her a bit before leaving, thoroughly pleased with himself. Flash tries to get her attention but shes off in lalaland about Spidey's strong arms. Flash ain't happy. He can handle Pete's competition but theres no way he could compete with Spider-Man. Pete's mood is soured when he overhears a radio DJ say the entire country is wondering why Spider-Man won't tackle the Lizard. He decides to pay JJJ a visit. Cornering flattop in his office and webbing him to the ceiling, Spidey makes it clear that he will accept the Bugle's challenge and that if Jonah had any sense he would send a photographer down to Florida to cover it. Jonah calls for Betty to get ahold of Peter immediately and lay some cushions down under him. Too late. Seconds later the webbing gives way. Five minutes later Peter shows up at the Bugle's office. He is about to ask Betty out when Jonah interrupts: They're going down to Florida together. JJJ is going to write the story personally and enjoy a vacation. Aunt May isn't happy about Peter going to see the Lizard but hearing that he'll be travelling with that nice man Mr Jameson reassures her. On the flight to Florida (man, air travel was different) Jonah lambasts Peter for not taking as many good pics lately. Peter passes the time by reading news reports on the Lizard. He notes a small article saying Dr Connors, a reptile expert, lives in the area. Peter makes a mental note to consult him. As soon as they land Peter gets as far away from Jonah as he can and changes into Spider-Man. Heading into the Lizard's territory Spidey starts to have second thoughts. His spider sense alerts him to danger but it's too late: The Lizard grabs his leg and pulls him underwater. Loosening the creature's grip by throwing mud in his eye Spidey gets ashore but the Lizard follows. Spidey realizes that it's no costume, he really is dealing with a giant lizard! He grabs onto the Lizard's tail but gets flung up into a tree. From the treetop he can see Dr Connors' house and drops in to warn him about the Lizard (as if he wouldn't already know). But what he finds is a woman crying about a photo of her husband. She is Dr Connors' wife and he IS the Lizard. She explains how it happened: Having lost his arm in the Korean war, Connors dreamed of tapping into a lizard's regenerative qualities and finding a way to regrow lost limbs and organs. His early tests are successful so he drinks his serum. His arm grows back but also grows scales. Transforming into a lizard he flees his wife, too ashamed of what he had become. The next day he attempts to formulate an antidote but the transformation is affecting his brain. Fearing what may happen if he stayed with his family he wrote them a note telling his wife to leave with their son, Billy. As she finishes her story they hear Billy yell from outside. Spidey looks and sees Billy running in terror from the Lizard, who apologizes for scaring him and begs him to stop. Spidey swings in and grabs the boy but Lizard grabs him. His skin is too tough for Spidey to punch and he's too strong for even his webbing to hold. Spidey is saved by the wife (does she ever get a name?) calling for Billy, causing the Lizard to dive into the swamp. Spidey asks for Connors' notes. He needs to act quickly, the Lizard is becoming less human with every minute. Spidey is able to work up a cure but the Lizard attacks again. He wants Spider-Man dead, then nobody will stand in the way of his world conquest. He beats seven shades of crap out of Spidey and makes off with the lizard serum, planning to inject it into lizards and create an army. Spidey heads out into the swamp with the antidote. His spider sense tells him the Lizard is holed up in an old Spanish fort. He spots the Lizard talking to some alligators and snaps a few pics before the stone gives way and he falls. Evading the gators he chases the Lizard around the fort. They battle inside a tower and Spidey manages to dose him with the antidote. After a delayed reaction the Lizard reverts back to human form, minus one arm. Spidey returns him to his family and Connors burns his notes. Spidey tells him that he technically broke no laws (yet) so the whole incident should remain a secret. The next day Peter meets Jonah at the airport with the photos. To explain how he got them he says he bought them from an Indian guide. Jonah tells him the photos are fakes and tears them up. The Lizard was a hoax and because Peter didn't even get a photo of Spider-Man their time has been completely wasted. Peter gets no pay and in fact owes Jameson for airfare and accommodations. At home Aunt May lets him know he has a huge backlog of chores. He decides to call Liz Allan for a date (as Betty is busy with Jameson). Liz tells him not to tie up her phone line, as she's expecting a call from Spider-Man. At the Bugle Jameson gets a letter from Spider-Man. It says "Roses are red, Violets are blue, I'm still at large, so phooey to you!" Jameson demands it destroyed. The issue ends with an announcement that the Vulture will be returning next issue. Observations: After a slight dip downwards last issue this is a return to form. In fact, it's better than form. What really makes this issue is the story of Curt Connors. This is the first villain who is actually sympathetic. He's not a criminal, he's a scientist trying to make the world a better place. He falls victim to his own work but even when he becomes a monster he still has humanity enough to care for his family (him writing the goodbye note to his family reminds me of the " insect politics" scene in Cronenberg's remake of "The Fly" and it's chilling in both stories). When he tries to visit his son it's really quite sad. Of course, the really cool thing about having a giant lizard for a villain is you have a giant lizard for a villain. Lizard rounds out the Spider-Man rogues gallery quite well. From Spidey's perspective he might as well be invincible. Spidey doesn't actually beat him, he only manages to defuse the situation. The Lizard is his most formidable foe so far, which is balanced out by the Lizard effectively dying (for now; he'll return in a few dozen issues). The romantic seeds planted in #5 start to bloom. Liz's interest in Spider-Man develops into a full blown crush at the expense of Peter's chances with her (mirroring the Flash Thompson situation) while Peter starts to put the moves on Betty Brant. In terms of appearance Peter is loosening up a bit, forgoing a tie for the first time when he tries to ask Betty out. And there is some really great JJJ comedy as well. Perhaps Stan and Steve learned their lesson after having Peter earn an entire year's rent in one day because Peter's standings at the Bugle have taken a nosedive. After turning in some shots of Spidey in #4 he's on the second straight issue of no photo scores (besides the building fire last ish) and Jonah knows it. From his overwhelming cheapness to his horrified reaction to Spidey's letter Jonah is becoming more and more fun with each issue. The only hokeyness in the issue comes from Peter being able to put an antidote together. Yes, he's a smart guy and a science buff but he's only got an 11th grade education, theres no way he should be able to pull something together in five minutes (I don't assume Connors wrote out an entire antidote while still human for Peter to copy). But that can be ignored because the rest of the issue is rock solid with a real emotional core. 5/5Other notes: - Peter tries to learn about lizards by studying dinosaurs but dinosaurs aren't actually lizards. - First usage of "My spider sense is tingling!" - Why does it fall on Spider-Man to deal with The Lizard when, by November 1963, the world was defended by The Fantastic Four, Ant-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Doctor Strange, The X-Men and The Avengers? - Spidey's webbing dissolves for the first time. In #3 Spidey was able to web Jonah's seat and it was still there the next morning. Now it breaks down in seconds.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 14, 2015 11:31:26 GMT -5
The Vulture is still my third favorite Spidey villain after Doc Ock and the Green Goblin. It's probably because I loved the first two adventures so much. My first exposure to the Vulture was the '67 Spider-Man cartoon. This guy: Same here. It took me a while to get used to the old guy. Didn't he become temporarily young at one point, perhaps as a reference to the cartoon version?
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Feb 14, 2015 11:35:27 GMT -5
My first exposure to the Vulture was the '67 Spider-Man cartoon. This guy: Same here. It took me a while to get used to the old guy. Didn't he become temporarily young at one point, perhaps as a reference to the cartoon version? The animated version was Blackie Drago, who first appeared in the Lee/Romita run: Speaking of the show, as a kid I never ever saw a Green Goblin episode and assumed they never used him. I was pretty surprised to find I had managed to miss all of his episodes. I had a similar experience with Batman TAS. Never saw a Ra's al Ghul episode so I never knew the character existed. When I saw Batman Begins I wondered why they chose to make up their own villain.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 14, 2015 11:39:06 GMT -5
Same here. It took me a while to get used to the old guy. Didn't he become temporarily young at one point, perhaps as a reference to the cartoon version? The animated version was Blackie Drago, who first appeared in the Lee/Romita run: Speaking of the show, as a kid I never ever saw a Green Goblin episode and assumed they never used him. I was pretty surprised to find I had managed to miss all of his episodes. I had a similar experience with Batman TAS. Never saw a Ra's al Ghul episode so I never knew the character existed. When I saw Batman Begins I wondered why they chose to make up their own villain. Ah, right. I thought Toomes also got de-aged, but maybe my memories are confused. I saw one Green Goblin episode of the show, just a few years ago, and it was very strange. The Goblin was an actual goblin, using magic, nothing like the comics version. The art for the episode was also weird, not like any other episode I ever saw (possibly a fill-in! )
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Feb 14, 2015 11:54:26 GMT -5
The animated version was Blackie Drago, who first appeared in the Lee/Romita run: Speaking of the show, as a kid I never ever saw a Green Goblin episode and assumed they never used him. I was pretty surprised to find I had managed to miss all of his episodes. I had a similar experience with Batman TAS. Never saw a Ra's al Ghul episode so I never knew the character existed. When I saw Batman Begins I wondered why they chose to make up their own villain. Ah, right. I thought Toomes also got de-aged, but maybe my memories are confused. I saw one Green Goblin episode of the show, just a few years ago, and it was very strange. The Goblin was an actual goblin, using magic, nothing like the comics version. The art for the episode was also weird, not like any other episode I ever saw (possibly a fill-in! ) There was an arc where Toomes was able to de-age himself by absorbing life force but it was in the 90s. That arc got adapted into the 90s cartoon.
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 14, 2015 12:31:42 GMT -5
After a slight dip downards last issue this is a return to form. Taking the character out of his usual surroundings, didn't work for me. Spider-Man has been to the Everglades several times over the years, but even Claremont and Byrne, failed to deliver an interesting story, under those conditions.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Feb 14, 2015 12:47:43 GMT -5
After a slight dip downards last issue this is a return to form. Taking the character out of his usual surroundings, didn't work for me. Spider-Man has been to the Everglades several times over the years, but even Claremont and Byrne, failed to deliver an interesting story, under those conditions. I enjoyed Peter's little field trip, although I wish Stan and Steve had done a little more with Spidey figuring out his way around the Everglades (then again, the story was busy enough as it is).
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 14, 2015 16:53:12 GMT -5
Duel To The Death With The Vulture: 4/5, a good story but I've never been a particularly big fan of The Vulture The Uncanny Threat of The Terrible Tinkerer: 1/5, goofy and not in the fun way In defense of the Vulture.... I keep saying how I like the creepy horror vibe of the Ditko issues and I really miss the creepy horror vibe of the Ditko issues when it goes away for the next twenty years or so - but I have to say that the horror stories that the pre-superhero Marvel horror stories that led to creepy Spider-man were, by and large, just not very good. I really appreciate Kirby and Ditko's visual imagination, and it's cool when you get the occasional Williamson or Krigstien story, but the writing on the Strange Tales type horror comics never recovered from the comics code* - Although it was a little better in the '60s than the late '50s, when Stan et. al would try to cram six complete stories into every issue. And the Tinkerer story is an example of that. * Obviously I make an exception for Googam, Son of Goom. That is classic literature for the ages.
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