|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 8:50:12 GMT -5
1.) I was looking at the preview pages for TwoMorrows' Alter Ego #5. An article about the JSA has the headline "Together Again For The First Time". That phrase makes no sense to me. Anyone have any insight?
2.) Around the time John Byrne rebooted Superman, merchandise was still using previous artists' work (José Luis García-López, I think). Is there any particular reason Byrne's Superman didn't appear on any/much merchandise back then?
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Jan 27, 2020 15:50:23 GMT -5
1.) I was looking at the preview pages for TwoMorrows' Alter Ego #5. An article about the JSA has the headline "Together Again For The First Time". That phrase makes no sense to me. Anyone have any insight? 2.) Around the time John Byrne rebooted Superman, merchandise was still using previous artists' work (José Luis García-López, I think). Is there any particular reason Byrne's Superman didn't appear on any/much merchandise back then? Only a guess on #2, but I'd bet García-López did the merchandising artwork under a contract that allowed DC to use it in perpetuity without royalties. Heck, they're still using it, despite the work being not just out-of-date from a costume design perspective, but dated in style. For mass-market products like greeting cards, DC probably rightfully figures the consumer is not interested in 21st century styling, they just want a clear, recognizable figure. Byrne probably would have insisted on a cut of whatever his artwork was used for outside of comics, and they were already paying him handsomely for the comics work.
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,915
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jan 27, 2020 15:55:35 GMT -5
1.) I was looking at the preview pages for TwoMorrows' Alter Ego #5. An article about the JSA has the headline "Together Again For The First Time". That phrase makes no sense to me. Anyone have any insight? That's not the only time I've seen that phrase — it's also on the cover of X-Men #268, for one. That story is a flashback. So basically, it's saying here are these characters, together again (from the reader's standpoint) for the first time (from the character's standpoint). It wouldn't surprise me if this was some literary reference, like the "trapped in a world he never made" tag that appeared on multiple books in the 70's, most notably Howard the Duck.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 16:11:13 GMT -5
Thanks, guys.
So, García-López's artwork is still being used? I guess in some ways it is timeless, but perhaps confusing to some. As a kid, I was expecting Byrne's Superman to show up on the likes of cups and pillows, but it didn't.
Ah, at least my brain is no long thinking about that "together again for the first time" phrase. It had me bewildered!
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Jan 27, 2020 16:48:09 GMT -5
2.) Around the time John Byrne rebooted Superman, merchandise was still using previous artists' work (José Luis García-López, I think). Is there any particular reason Byrne's Superman didn't appear on any/much merchandise back then? Only a guess on #2, but I'd bet García-López did the merchandising artwork under a contract that allowed DC to use it in perpetuity without royalties. Heck, they're still using it, despite the work being not just out-of-date from a costume design perspective, but dated in style. For mass-market products like greeting cards, DC probably rightfully figures the consumer is not interested in 21st century styling, they just want a clear, recognizable figure. Byrne probably would have insisted on a cut of whatever his artwork was used for outside of comics, and they were already paying him handsomely for the comics work. That was my guess as well. If they were gong to ask Byrne to do updated models for licensing, they probably would've had Giordano or Ordway ink them to bring them more into "house style."
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Jan 27, 2020 17:00:04 GMT -5
1.) I was looking at the preview pages for TwoMorrows' Alter Ego #5. An article about the JSA has the headline "Together Again For The First Time". That phrase makes no sense to me. Anyone have any insight? That's not the only time I've seen that phrase — it's also on the cover of X-Men #268, for one. That story is a flashback. So basically, it's saying here are these characters, together again (from the reader's standpoint) for the first time (from the character's standpoint). It wouldn't surprise me if this was some literary reference, like the "trapped in a world he never made" tag that appeared on multiple books in the 70's, most notably Howard the Duck. The first time I remember seeing it was I think in the 70s and was in a Marvel comics ad for some upcoming project: I have no memory of the details, but I think the basic idea was that it was just a joking way of referring to the fact that the writer and artist had tried to collaborate on something previously but it never came to fruition for one reason or another - so here they were, "together again", in a way, but also "for the first time" in another way.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Spaceman on Jan 27, 2020 17:11:04 GMT -5
"Together Again - For the First Time" is also the name of 1978 album by Mel Torme and Buddy Rich. The title was a jokey reference to the fact that, while they had been friends for many years, this was the first time they actually made a record together.
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Jan 27, 2020 19:29:25 GMT -5
"Together Again - For the First Time" is also the name of 1978 album by Mel Torme and Buddy Rich. The title was a jokey reference to the fact that, while they had been friends for many years, this was the first time they actually made a record together. I thought of this, too (I'm a Buddy Rich fan) but I suspect the phrase dates back even further.
Cei-U! I summon the mystery!
|
|
|
Post by Mister Spaceman on Jan 27, 2020 21:32:38 GMT -5
"Together Again - For the First Time" is also the name of 1978 album by Mel Torme and Buddy Rich. The title was a jokey reference to the fact that, while they had been friends for many years, this was the first time they actually made a record together. I thought of this, too (I'm a Buddy Rich fan) but I suspect the phrase dates back even further.
Cei-U! I summon the mystery!
Oh, yes, for sure. This was just one use that came to mind when I saw the question. I too wonder about its history. (A quick Google search does reveal that its a song title or at least lyric in the Young Frankenstein musical. But I'm not finding much beyond that.)
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jan 28, 2020 0:36:43 GMT -5
I've heard the phrase used quite a bit in advertising; but, memory doesn't hold when I first heard it.
Jose Luis-Garcia Lopez created the model sheets that were used for licensees, for merch, as well as the redesigned character models for the Legendary Super Powers iteration of the Super Friends (which carried forward with galactic Guardians). Aside from the covers and occasional story piece, that was his main job, at DC. His models were clean and classic and he could give you thousands of variations and you knew the characters instantly. Was he exploited? No more than any other designer who does those things with someone else's characters. He didn't originate them, so I wouldn't put him in the same class as Kirby or Siegel & Shuster.
Byrne got a pretty good deal to revamp Superman; but, I wouldn't like to bet his royalty contract was any better than anyone else's, when it came to licensed merch. Page rate is a different story. It would have taken time to put out new model sheets for Superman merch and Byrne's tenure wasn't that long. Most of those contracts were already in play, when he took over. I also doubt he would have had the time to do that kind of work, in addition to writing and drawing the books he was doing.
JLGL got a ton of work doing the model stuff; probably more than he would have made via page rate on story material. He never complained that I ever read.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jan 28, 2020 0:46:14 GMT -5
I'm watching The Vengeance of Fu Manchu (1967) starring Christopher Lee in the title role -- it's a terrible movie, by the way. Anyway, Lee's yellowface make up isn't so much offensive as just utterly ridiculous, and I got to wondering, has there ever been a movie with Fu Manchu in it where he was actually played by an Asian actor? Pretty much all were actors of European descent. The character was seen as racist in Asia and Asian cinema never picked it up, though they did rip off the character for Asian villains. Mr Han, in Enter the Dragon, is pretty much a modern Fu Manchu type, minus the mandarin robes, moustache, and elixir vitae. The first Christopher Lee film, The Face of Fu Manchu is pretty good and the best of his series, with Nigel Green doing a great job as Nayland Smith. He only did the one and Richard Greene was less engaging as the character. Plus, that one had a much better plot. The whole series is weirdly disjointed, as the cars are 1920s vehicles, the men wear period suits; but the women all look 1960s, fashions and all. The Mask of Fu Manchu, with Boris Karloff, is pretty good pulpy stuff, if you can get past the racist portions (which start with the white actor playing Chinese, plus Myrna Loy playing his daughter). I have the serial, Drums of Fu Manchu; but have only watched about 5 minutes of the first episode. Haven't seen the tv show or the earlier Fu Manchu films. I have seen the Peter Sellers spoof, which is just bad, all around, though if you ever wanted to see Helen Mirren sing and dance, it is worth it for that (she's not going to switch to musicals any time soon). Of what I have seen, the Lee stuff is probably the least exploitive of the character stereotypes, if you can believe that.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 28, 2020 9:16:34 GMT -5
I've heard the phrase used quite a bit in advertising; but, memory doesn't hold when I first heard it. Jose Luis-Garcia Lopez created the model sheets that were used for licensees, for merch, as well as the redesigned character models for the Legendary Super Powers iteration of the Super Friends (which carried forward with galactic Guardians). Aside from the covers and occasional story piece, that was his main job, at DC. His models were clean and classic and he could give you thousands of variations and you knew the characters instantly. Was he exploited? No more than any other designer who does those things with someone else's characters. He didn't originate them, so I wouldn't put him in the same class as Kirby or Siegel & Shuster. Byrne got a pretty good deal to revamp Superman; but, I wouldn't like to bet his royalty contract was any better than anyone else's, when it came to licensed merch. Page rate is a different story. It would have taken time to put out new model sheets for Superman merch and Byrne's tenure wasn't that long. Most of those contracts were already in play, when he took over. I also doubt he would have had the time to do that kind of work, in addition to writing and drawing the books he was doing. JLGL got a ton of work doing the model stuff; probably more than he would have made via page rate on story material. He never complained that I ever read. It's been a while since I've read Modern Masters: J. L. Garcia-Lopez, but my recollection from the interview with JLGL was that the advertising and model sheets paid a bit better than page rates and worked better for him because he was fairly slow at producing pages. The thing with advertising and merchandising art is you want a consistent look across the merchandise with the characters "on-model." Garcia-Lopez's merchandising drawings "look" like the characters and they all have a consistent style so they don't fight against each other.
|
|
|
Post by nerdygirl905 on Jan 28, 2020 12:29:45 GMT -5
So, in ye-olde-Golden-and-Silver-Age Comics, the teen heroes sure had lots of classmates that got into the spotlight once, but were never seen again. People like Roberta the Girl Wonder (MOST BADASS DICK LOVE INTEREST EVER), real name Mary Wills, Tom Baxter (kid in the same orphanage Supergirl was sent off), and freaking Bee-boy? Jerro, Dick Malverne, WHATEVER OTHER KIDS WHERE IN THE CITIES. Why they were never seen again?
|
|
|
Post by Mister Spaceman on Jan 28, 2020 15:01:53 GMT -5
So, in ye-olde-Golden-and-Silver-Age Comics, the teen heroes sure had lots of classmates that got into the spotlight once, but were never seen again. People like Roberta the Girl Wonder (MOST BADASS DICK LOVE INTEREST EVER), real name Mary Wills, Tom Baxter (kid in the same orphanage Supergirl was sent off), and freaking Bee-boy? Jerro, Dick Malverne, WHATEVER OTHER KIDS WHERE IN THE CITIES. Why they were never seen again? Served their narrative purpose. The core structure was in place for Batman and Robin, for example, and it only required regular and temporary deviations, such as Roberta the Girl Wonder, to maintain reader interest month-to-month (the classic "sameness-with-difference" principle). Keeping her as a continuing character would radically alter the established template (and something DC would only do if they received an unexpected flood of reader letters expressing a desire for her return). BTW, I never expected to see the phrase "badass dick love" on this forum; elsewhere on the Internet, sure, just not here. Speaking of Roberta, I love this moment. Evade her question all you want, Robin. Dr. Wertham is on to you!
|
|
|
Post by nerdygirl905 on Jan 28, 2020 15:41:25 GMT -5
So, in ye-olde-Golden-and-Silver-Age Comics, the teen heroes sure had lots of classmates that got into the spotlight once, but were never seen again. People like Roberta the Girl Wonder (MOST BADASS DICK LOVE INTEREST EVER), real name Mary Wills, Tom Baxter (kid in the same orphanage Supergirl was sent off), and freaking Bee-boy? Jerro, Dick Malverne, WHATEVER OTHER KIDS WHERE IN THE CITIES. Why they were never seen again? Served their narrative purpose. The core structure was in place for Batman and Robin, for example, and it only required regular and temporary deviations, such as Roberta the Girl Wonder, to maintain reader interest month-to-month (the classic "sameness-with-difference" principle). Keeping her as a continuing character would radically alter the established template (and something DC would only do if they received an unexpected flood of reader letters expressing a desire for her return). BTW, I never expected to see the phrase "badass dick love" on this forum; elsewhere on the Internet, sure, just not here. Speaking of Roberta, I love this moment. Evade her question all you want, Robin. Dr. Wertham is on to you! It’s badass Dick love interest, but okay. XD. For the solo parts he got in Star-Spangled Comics, this was one of the best.
|
|