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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 23:56:13 GMT -5
On the other hand, Krypto has worked exceedingly well in the live action Titans show and is one of my favorite parts of the show, one that is a world grounded in verisimilitude to the point of being almost exceedingly grim and gritty. The boy and his dog trope with Krypto and Conor serves to instantly connect both with the audience (at least those who are dog lovers) -M Maybe Krypto can work in a live-action TV show (real dogs are hard not to like), but when I see him in a Modern Age comic, he just takes me out of the story. Maybe so for you, but I think that's more due to your personal bias as an audience member than the viability of the concept of a super-powered dog hero itself. It works just fine for some. -M
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Post by rberman on Dec 11, 2019 0:15:49 GMT -5
I was just reading a Generation X Marvel circa 1999 and suddenly there is Peter Porker The Spider-Ham running around the Massachusetts academy grounds being chased by Ducktor Doom! That was like having Super Turtle show up in an actual Superman story... and worse than Popeye being in the crowd at some Shi'ar Empire outer space get together. They explain it was two very young mutants using those image generator thing Nightcrawler and The Beast sometimes use, but cutesy stuff like that risks really blowing the gravitas of even a quieter scene. On the other hand, She-Hulk complaining about the narrator in a Heroes For Hire of around the same time was somewhat at home in a sort of between serious stories issue. Batman in particular would be easily undone by some of those '50s add-ons like Bat Mite, or if Ace the Bat Hound were to really be shown as having a serious role, so I can see Krypto being actually real type attacking scary could hit the same note because of the cape. I can't abide characters like Mxyzptlyx usually, they used him in the modern Supergirl tv series and I guess it worked as well as it can, but it still undermined the reality overall even if it had a couple actually funny moments and was about as subtle as such a magical creature can be played. It's a big risk anyway. marvel's Impossible Man ruined things fro me in the '70s and '80s comics he was in, especially with his almost identical mate. Tin and no-name in The Metal Men could also be over-milked, but at least it's premise was even more fantasy to begin with. Somewhere between the Batman laughing at some not funny 'joke' after beating the Calculator (terrible villain) at the end of Detective Comics #468 and the Bat-tank running over crowds of people and mutants in Dark Knight Returns there is a really cool character. Keep Ace semi-official and used very sparingly. I think the capes probably have to be out for anything serious though. Grant Morrison incorporated Bat Mite into his R.I.P. storyline to show that Batman was going, um, batty. And Mr. Mxyzptlk (or a cousin rather) showed up very straightforwardly in Morrison's All-Star Superman run. Morrison also resurrected Qwsp from Silver Age Aquaman as another mischievous inhabitant of Mxyzptlk's fifth dimension.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 11, 2019 0:18:27 GMT -5
It can be done but the odds can be steep of it not blowing things. Especially if there is an animal with a cape. "Who wears capes?"
The old Captain Marvel was more flexible, kind of like Plastic Man, and The Metal Men.
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Post by Duragizer on Dec 11, 2019 0:24:21 GMT -5
Maybe Krypto can work in a live-action TV show (real dogs are hard not to like), but when I see him in a Modern Age comic, he just takes me out of the story. Maybe so for you, but I think that's more due to your personal bias as an audience member than the viability of the concept of a super-powered dog hero itself. It works just fine for some. -M That goes without saying.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 11, 2019 0:59:36 GMT -5
Which reminds me.... Post- Crisis Krypto was a stupid idea. A super-powered dog in a cape may have worked in the wacky Silver Age, but he sticks out like a sore thumb in a world grounded in verisimilitude. Just another prime example of the witless nostalgia which turned me off from the post-Triangle Era Superman comics. There, I said it. I don't really follow your argument here (and, furthermore, I think any attempts at verisimilitude have vanished from superhero comics since the late bronze age. Continuity pile-up has just left too much whacky shit in too small a space. You want verisimilitude, read Golden Age Superman.) But here's where you're wrong: The "wacky" Silver Age Krypto was some of the most emotionally brutal stuff I've ever read in comics. Silver Age Superman was dark, dude, and Krypto might have been the only aspect of it darker than Supergirl. Not that I'm blaming you - I read a lot about comics and I've never heard anyone accurately describe the tone and style of the Weisinger Superman line. I think because to do so would mean spending time psychoanalyzing Mort Weisinger... which nobody in their right mind would want to do. I'll take a shot at it. Silver Age Superman is children's whimsy filtered through a hard science fiction lens, combined with the Office or Always Sunny in Philadelphia or Peep Show style cringe comedy to the tenth power minus the comedy; ie the part where the characters are embarrassed or sad or traumatized is not played for laughs. Ever. There's comedy in the plot - which will be highly uncomfortable for the majority of modern superhero fans - but the emotional stakes of the stories are played completely straight and are incredibly high. Krypto is the completely loyal, good hearted and moral companion (who has the lowest self esteem of any character in fiction) constantly trying and failing to prove his worth to a master who is absolutely, 100% indifferent. It's not that Superboy doesn't CARE about Krypto's egg-fragile self-esteem... the idea that his dog might have problems of any kind pr need reassurance never even crosses his super intelligent mind. Meanwhile Krypto spends story after story convincing himself he is unworthy of love and that his master's indifference is all he deserves. Except it's nowhere near as warm and cheerful as I make it sound. Now the internet's response is "OOOh! SIlver Age Superman! You so goofy, dawg!" But that's only because "Superman is a Dick" is easier than acknowledging how uncaring and emotionally destructive the worldview was that Mort was peddling to kids. On the upside, it always had a happy ending. That's... that's something, I guess. Furthermore, I would contend that if modern writers can't do something with the above storytelling hooks... well, the problem is with the talent, not with the character. Plus. I mean, flying dog in a little cape. That's just cool. In our heart of hearts we all know it.
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Post by rberman on Dec 11, 2019 8:52:14 GMT -5
Silver Age Superman is children's whimsy filtered through a hard science fiction lens, combined with the Office or Always Sunny in Philadelphia or Peep Show style cringe comedy to the tenth power minus the comedy; ie the part where the characters are embarrassed or sad or traumatized is not played for laughs. Ever. There's comedy in the plot - which will be highly uncomfortable for the majority of modern superhero fans - but the emotional stakes of the stories are played completely straight and are incredibly high. Krypto is the completely loyal, good hearted and moral companion (who has the lowest self esteem of any character in fiction) constantly trying and failing to prove his worth to a master who is absolutely, 100% indifferent. It's not that Superboy doesn't CARE about Krypto's egg-fragile self-esteem... the idea that his dog might have problems of any kind pr need reassurance never even crosses his super intelligent mind. Meanwhile Krypto spends story after story convincing himself he is unworthy of love and that his master's indifference is all he deserves. What story exemplifies this?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 11, 2019 10:40:44 GMT -5
Silver Age Superman is children's whimsy filtered through a hard science fiction lens, combined with the Office or Always Sunny in Philadelphia or Peep Show style cringe comedy to the tenth power minus the comedy; ie the part where the characters are embarrassed or sad or traumatized is not played for laughs. Ever. There's comedy in the plot - which will be highly uncomfortable for the majority of modern superhero fans - but the emotional stakes of the stories are played completely straight and are incredibly high. Krypto is the completely loyal, good hearted and moral companion (who has the lowest self esteem of any character in fiction) constantly trying and failing to prove his worth to a master who is absolutely, 100% indifferent. It's not that Superboy doesn't CARE about Krypto's egg-fragile self-esteem... the idea that his dog might have problems of any kind pr need reassurance never even crosses his super intelligent mind. Meanwhile Krypto spends story after story convincing himself he is unworthy of love and that his master's indifference is all he deserves. What story exemplifies this? Although the first "Swifty the Superdog replaces Krypto" stories (from Superboy 105) is a little more definitive. Superboy gets another super dog as a playmate/helper for Krypto. Krypto says "Oh no, my master has a new dog and doesn't need me!" and flies off into space "forever". In Superboy 109 above Swifty is actually brainwashed and evil for a bit, so it's not quite as good a showcase for Krypto's terrible anxiety and Superboy's obliviousness. But it made the cover, so I'm showing it instead.
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Post by impulse on Dec 11, 2019 10:54:31 GMT -5
That Jim Lee art looks a lot better than his earlier work to me, I guess he dropped a lot of the '90s trademarks like all the excessive large cross-hatching and every surface being shiny, plus the Hulk proportion muscles and tree trunk necks. Scary Krypto! I don't know how much of that is Lee or the inker, but God, those are some satisfying thick lines. I also think Lee still shades and cross hatches his pencils a lot, but the colorist and inker may largely ignore them. What story exemplifies this? Although the first "Swifty the Superdog replaces Krypto" stories (from Superboy 105) is a little more definitive. Superboy gets another super dog as a playmate/helper for Krypto. Krypto says "Oh no, my master has a new dog and doesn't need me!" and flies off into space "forever". In Superboy 109 above Swifty is actually brainwashed and evil for a bit, so it's not quite as good a showcase for Krypto's terrible anxiety and Superboy's obliviousness. But it made the cover, so I'm showing it instead. A temporarily evil replacement Superdog is simultaneously the best and worst thing I've heard of today.
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Post by rberman on Dec 11, 2019 12:30:32 GMT -5
What story exemplifies this? Although the first "Swifty the Superdog replaces Krypto" stories (from Superboy 105) is a little more definitive. Superboy gets another super dog as a playmate/helper for Krypto. Krypto says "Oh no, my master has a new dog and doesn't need me!" and flies off into space "forever". In Superboy 109 above Swifty is actually brainwashed and evil for a bit, so it's not quite as good a showcase for Krypto's terrible anxiety and Superboy's obliviousness. But it made the cover, so I'm showing it instead. Poor Krypto! These "replacement stories" were quite common in the Silver Age. My friend/girlfriend/owner/pet found someone better than me! I see them as a sub-genre of "rejection stories" which were even more common. My friends hate me now! (sob) LSH stories were a particular hotbed of this sort of teen drama. But it was everywhere really... Everywhere except Wonder Woman, surprisingly enough. She spent the Silver Age fighting giant monsters, until she turned into Emma Peel, but for some reason I couldn't immediately unearth examples of this sort of betrayal story in her book. They are easy enough to find for everyone else at DC, though, especially Lois Lane and Superboy. I attribute this to the influence of the romance comics so popular in the 1950s. Somebody was always breaking somebody's heart. Marvel Comics often had relationship drama as well, but generally only as as sub-plot, not on the cover. Indeed, when Marvel Comics fan Jim Shooter took over writing LSH, he quickly introduced super-villains as the main source of conflict rather than intra-team heartbreak.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 11, 2019 12:50:52 GMT -5
I read an overwrought Superboy story written by Otto Binder from that 'silly' age of DC, The Execution Of Krypto (Superboy #67, also in Superman Annual #1 and replica edition). Poor loyal Krypto, still in cape, chained in a dark dungeon with a lump of kyrptonite beneath a snappy bespoke sign that reads "Death Cell of Krypto" thinking " It's all over... (whimper!)... those glorious adventures I had with Superboy! Those kryptonite-rays are killing me fast... and my master didn't even lift a finger to save me!... (whine!)" Yes, Krypto was seen to have killed Clark Kent (a dummy of him actually), and rather than reaveal his secret identity, Superboy has to sign an order to have Krypto executed for murder even though he knows Krypto is innocent and poor loyal Krypto doesn't see him 'lifting a finger' to save him. Can it get much darker and realer? "My... my master didn't tell the police it was a dummy that 'drowned'! Protecting his secret identity was more important to Superboy than my... my life! (whimper!)" So Krypto's heart stops beating, and Superboy appears as Clark in tattered clothes as his limp body is brought out from the death chamber... ""You're alive, Clark... but it's too late to save Krypto! He was wrongly executed for your 'death'! What irony!" "Gosh, I'm sorry!" The news is broadcast to the general public of this sad event. Like the crime comics that showed in detail evil baddies in action for most of a story, everything gets wrapped up in a page and a half after this, but you'd have to read it to learn what plot gymnastics restore everything back to happy status-quo for the end panel. Does it really matter, this was the formula for moving many a Superman family of comics, and often enough, the Captain Marvel family also.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Dec 11, 2019 13:06:49 GMT -5
These "replacement stories" were quite common in the Silver Age. My friend/girlfriend/owner/pet found someone better than me! I see them as a sub-genre of "rejection stories" which were even more common. My friends hate me now! (sob) LSH stories were a particular hotbed of this sort of teen drama. I attribute this to the influence of the romance comics so popular in the 1950s. Somebody was always breaking somebody's heart. I think those kinds of "replacement stories" in Silver Age superhero comics probably had more to do with the fact that they were being written for kids and young teenagers (predominantly boys), and one of the worst things that can happen to you when you're that age is that your friends exclude you from the game/event/party/dance etc. So, it was an easy device for writers to employ in order to connect emotionally with the target audience back then. I supect it had very little to do with the influence of romance comics, which were essentially written for girls.
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Post by rberman on Dec 11, 2019 13:12:44 GMT -5
These "replacement stories" were quite common in the Silver Age. My friend/girlfriend/owner/pet found someone better than me! I see them as a sub-genre of "rejection stories" which were even more common. My friends hate me now! (sob) LSH stories were a particular hotbed of this sort of teen drama. I attribute this to the influence of the romance comics so popular in the 1950s. Somebody was always breaking somebody's heart. I think those kinds of "replacement stories" in Silver Age superhero comics probably had more to do with the fact that they were being written for kids and young teenagers (predominantly boys); one of the worst things that can happen to you when you're that age is that your friends exclude you from the game/event/party/dance etc. So, it was an easy device for writers to employ in order to connect emotionally with the target audience back then. I supect it had very little to do with the influence of romance comics, which were essentially written for girls. I think it was what the middle aged writers at DC thought teens wanted to read about. But I bet Legion sold better when Jim Shooter was writing it as an action piece than before when the drama was mainly relational.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,419
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Post by Confessor on Dec 11, 2019 13:14:22 GMT -5
I think those kinds of "replacement stories" in Silver Age superhero comics probably had more to do with the fact that they were being written for kids and young teenagers (predominantly boys); one of the worst things that can happen to you when you're that age is that your friends exclude you from the game/event/party/dance etc. So, it was an easy device for writers to employ in order to connect emotionally with the target audience back then. I supect it had very little to do with the influence of romance comics, which were essentially written for girls. I think it was what the middle aged writers at DC thought teens wanted to read about. But I bet Legion sold better when Jim Shooter was writing it as an action piece than before when the drama was mainly relational. Oh, for sure.
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Post by rberman on Dec 11, 2019 13:22:39 GMT -5
I stumbled across an example of how the Image style polluted the whole field for a while in the 90s. Remember Herbe Trimpe? Whether under orders or by choice, by 1995 he had turned into this in order to go with the flow of the Liefeld/Lee crowd. These are real images ( Fantastic Four Unlimited #4) from an actual published comic book that people paid money to own. From an artist who could clearly do something different if it were what the public wanted.
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Post by kirby101 on Dec 11, 2019 14:14:22 GMT -5
Trimpe chose to change his style. No one forced him.
Though I was not a fan of the change either.
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