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Post by jason on Jan 26, 2020 12:52:52 GMT -5
Since we're discussing adaptations, the Archie cartoon from the 70s was horrible. Granted, I never got to see it until the Family Channel started running reruns of it in the 90s, but the voices were pretty awful all around (you may or may not like Superfriends, but it had excellent voice actors like Michael Bell, Olan Soule, Adam West, Danny Dark, Frank Welker, Adam West, Casey Kasem, Rene Aubejones, Ernie Hudson, etc). The New Archies from the 80s was so 80s that it's aged horribly (though being a big Archie fan at the time, I did watch it and enjoy it for what it was, havent seen it since the 80s though). Never saw Archie's Weird Mysteries, but I've heard it's the best of the Archie cartoons, may have to check it out.
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Post by impulse on Jan 26, 2020 13:47:07 GMT -5
On the topic, I would pay good money for a modern video game remake of the X-Men animated series with the returning original cast, something a la Transformers: Devestation which is basically a playable version of the Gen 1 show. OMG killing sentinels as Wolverine with that animation and voice would fulfill a lot of childhood dreams of mine.
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Post by Duragizer on Jan 26, 2020 16:22:49 GMT -5
I like Season 1 the best. The rest of the series is a mixed bag. Still better than the '90s Spider-Man cartoon, though. You think the 90s X-Men cartoon is better than the Spidey cartoon?!! *Puts on boxing gloves and hires a gym* Fancy duking it out? Winner gets to concede to the other person's point. To be fair, I do think Seasons 1 & 2 of Spider-Man are pretty good, but the extreme bowdlerization and overuse of Kingpin made the series a chore for me to watch in the end.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 26, 2020 21:31:23 GMT -5
I wanted to really love the Star Trek animated series, but the animation was so stuff and limited... people used to dis the Japanese cartoons for being cheap or limited Really? I always found the Japanese cartoons to be of much higher quality than the American ones of their time.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 26, 2020 21:44:52 GMT -5
Fact: ABC bought a 16 episode order, from hanna-Barbera, of a one-hour cartoon, titled The Super Friends. It debuted in the Fall of 1973, and was broadcast for the entirety of the 1973-74 season, including the Spring and Summer. It was broadcast at 9:00 am EST for the entirety of the season.
Fact: ABC re-ran the same 16 episode block of the Super Friends for the 1974-75 Season, at 11:00 am EST, for the entire season, including the Spring and Summer.
Fact: ABC brought back the Super Friends for the Spring of the 1975-76 Season, as a replacement for the cancelled Uncle Croc's Block. It was shown through the summer.
Fact: ABC again returned to the same 16 episodes of the Super Friends as a Spring replacement, for the 1976-77 season, in a half hour format, splitting the episodes into two parts. It took over the third half hour of the 90 minute Kroft Super Show, which was reduced to one hour.
Fact: ABC broadcast the new All-New Super Friends Hour for the entirety of the 1977-78 season.
Therefore, the original Super Friends tv series was broadcast from Fall of 1973 to the Summer of 1977, with only a 4-6 month gap, each, in 1975-76 and 1976-77. The same 16 episodes were broadcast in a prime Saturday morning slot for two straight seasons and used to boost ratings after removing a weak show. This is under Fred Silverman, considered to be THE top network executive of his era, overseeing CBS dominance in the early 70s and ABC replacing it in the mid 70s. He was also responsible for applying the same programming principles to Saturday Morning tv, using one show to lead to another, so that kids stayed tuned to his network, all morning. he had very close relationship with Hanna-Barbera, with the success of their programming on his CBS network, with Scooby Doo. He completely dumped Filmation programming after the abysmal failure of Uncle Croc's Block.
Why would such a shrewd executive return again and again to a supposedly failed cartoon? Why was a failed cartoon re-run for a second complete season, with the same block of episodes? Why replace underperforming shows with a supposedly failed cartoon? Why order more product, featuring those same characters, from the same animation house that was supposedly producing nothing but dreck? The logical answer is that the Super friends was not a failed show, did not earn poor ratings and basically pulled in an audience again and again, even though they had seen the episodes (in some cases; they were new to the younger kids).
The Super Friends appeared, in one form or another, every year, as either a Fall Season show or a Spring replacement, from Fall of 1973 until Summer 1985. Over a decade of programming on one network. You don't keep returning to the same concept and characters unless they pull in viewers and appeal to advertisers; certainly not in the cut-throat world of television. You may not have liked the series or it may not hold up as you age; but, the fact of the matter is that it drew a dependable audience for ABC.
The use of the word "cancelled" is arguable. The standard practice for Saturday Morning cartoons was for the network to purchase a block of episodes for a show, from an animation studio. If it was a big success, they might order another block of episodes, to be run with the original order of episodes, but usually about half as many as the original order, or some portion of that. They might order another small block if it continues to be a success. However, the bulk of Saturday morning programming was built around a half hour time slot. The Super Friends was a one-hour show, which meant ABC purchased the equivalent of two seasons of stories, for the average cartoon. As such, there was no real need to order more episodes, which would prove costlier than a normal half hour series. So, they ran that same group of 16 again. Then, they decided to go with new programming the next season. When some of it failed, they returned to those episodes, still as an hour show. They tried something new again, and returned to the Super friends, as a half hour show. Then, they decided to buy a new version of the show, since the audience would tune in for it, as proven by reruns, which likely carried far more weight than the success of Wonder Woman, in Prime Time, as ABC hemmed and hawed about renewing the show for the Fall 1977 season and Warner Bros went with an offer from CBS. it is more likely that the ratings of the original Super friends reruns, combined with longstanding relationships between Hanna-Barbera and Fred Silverman led to them picking up the All-New Super Friends Hour and starting the trend of retooling the series each season, through the 1983 Spring Season. After a break during the Fall 1983 season, they picked up with the revamped Legendary Super Powers Team show in the Fall 1984 season and Galactic Guardians for the Fall 1985 season.
The thesis that it was a ratings failure does not hold up to logic, without actual ratings numbers for analysis and until such numbers can be shown, it boils down to an opinion about the show, which does not make it fact.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 26, 2020 21:53:44 GMT -5
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 26, 2020 22:09:07 GMT -5
I wanted to really love the Star Trek animated series, but the animation was so stuff and limited... people used to dis the Japanese cartoons for being cheap or limited Really? I always found the Japanese cartoons to be of much higher quality than the American ones of their time. Generally speaking, before the mid-1970s, the imported Japanese cartoons tended to have very limited animation, with many in black & white, and often looking inferior to Hanna-Barbera and Filmation. Rankin-Bass was one of the first American studios to use Japanese animation houses, to save on the costs of American animators. Hanna-Barbera would offshore much of its production to Australia, in the mid-70s, with Filmation the lone hold out, until the 1980s. There were exceptions, such as Tatsunoko's Mach Go Go Go, shown here as Speed Racer; but, even Osamu Tezuka's Astro Boy wasn't as fluid as Hanna-Barbera's 1960s action programming. By the mid-late 70s, higher quality animation series began to appear from Japan, including Tatsunoko's Gatchaman, which Sandy Frank syndicated for US television as Battle of the Planets, after Star Wars. The quality of Japanese animation continued to improve, while the US got cheaper and cheaper, as they farmed out the work overseas, until the rise of cable brought new avenues for syndicated animation programming, bringing in new markets for original US animation and repackaging of Japanese shows. Those late 70s shows paved the way for the Japanese Invasion, with shows like Star Blazers, Voltron, Robotech and more. Before them there was battle of the Planets, Tranzor Z, Force Five, Tekkaman, and a few others. Despite the lower frame rate of the Japanese material in the 60s, there was a charm to the stories that made up for it, creating cult audiences for Astro Boy, Marine Boy, Kimba the White Lion, Gigantor, and 8-Man. Speed Racer was a major breakthrough, though character animation could be quite stiff. Tatsunoko improved greatly by the time they did Gatchaman, which had the 70s generation, who only got to see the Super Friends lasso the Legion of Doom, and Spider-Man capture the villains in webs, salivating, and reminded those of us who started watching cartoons in the late 60s remember Batman and Robin punching and kicking goons, while people got shot on Jonny Quest (and shouted 'AIEEEEEEEE" alot). The 80s was the real turn around from people saying Japanese animation was cheap and stiff to wishing that American animation was as good. Pretty soon, American animation was done almost entirely in Japan and Korea.
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Post by donaldg on Jan 27, 2020 0:10:15 GMT -5
I guess everyone's mileage varies, but crossovers can be fun. I'm not interested in every concept. But something like Scooby-Doo Team-Up was a lot of fun. I like the story where Bats and Robin teamed with the Scooby Gang against Man-Bat. Batman and Robin mentioned how criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot. Shaggy replied, "So are we." I think some of it is about having fun. Having Escape From New York crossing over with Big Trouble in Little China was probably more to do with Kurt Russell being both characters than any sincere desire to tell a good story, but the result was fun for me. Life needs more fun. Crossovers are interesting when the players have that mix of contrast, yet similar at the same time (e.g. The Green Hornet and Kato guest starring on the Batman TV series in 1967), so there's almost a natural desire for them to meet and/or fight. Sticking Star Trek (especially the original series era) with POTA or the X-Men is schoolyard stuff that makes no sense at all, and its as bad as the nonsensical selection of guest stars on The New Scooby-Doo Movies cartoon (CBS, 1972-73) where they met animated versions of real life celebrities that had not even a passing connection/similarity to the main characters and thus there was no sense in their meeting. It did not help that many children did not even know who some of those celebrities were, or they were on projects kids did not necessarily have experience watching (how many 70s kids really watched Dick Van Dyke or listened to Jerry Reed, or Cass Elliot in what were her solo years?). Josie and the Pussycats? Of course, since the entire Scooby-Doo format /character models were ripped from Archie comics anyway, but Phyllis Diller? Come on. That's been the problem with comic crossovers like B&V meet Red Sonja/Vampirella. If you question it at first sight, then it strongly suggests it was not a good idea. Speaking as an actual seventies kid, one who was six years old when The New Scooby-Doo Movies debuted in 1972, I sure did recognize Don Knotts, Dick Van Dyke, Jerry Reed, Mama Cass, and Phyllis Diller, not to mention Jonathan Winters, Sandy Duncan, and Sonny and Cher. "The Andy Griffith Show" and "The Dick Van Dyke Show" were staples of late afternoon/early evening syndicated reruns. Jerry Reed had recently come off hosting the summer replacement variety show, "The Jerry Reed When You're Hot, You're Hot Hour," and the song had significant radio airplay. Cass Elliot had made lots of appearances on variety shows, comedy shows, game shows, and interview shows in the late sixties and early seventies that I had seen as a kid. Ditto, Phyllis Diller and Jonathan Winters and the other celebrities I've mentioned above, many of whom also did television commercials. Seventies kids didn't limit their television viewing to shows aimed at children. We also watched what our parents and grandparents watched ... because adults controlled the TV. In the early seventies, I tuned in to an episode of "Columbo" because Dick Van Dyke had been heavily advertised as guest-star, and the same for the Johnny Cash episode. At the time, I was more of a "MacMillan and Wife" and "McCloud" kid. My first TV crush was Peggy Lipton of "The Mod Squad" ca. 1970-71 - I was four years old at the time. The celebrities they chose for "The New Scooby-Doo Movies" were largely recognizable enough to kids in 1972-73. Some wouldn't be for much past those years.
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Post by rberman on Jan 27, 2020 1:00:07 GMT -5
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Post by berkley on Jan 27, 2020 1:11:41 GMT -5
Interesting - I've never seen either show, as we didn't have cable when I would have been the age to get into Scooby, and I Dobie Gillis was before my time (and I don't thin we ever had it in re-runs on any of our channels).
How good or bad was the Dobie Gillis show? Up to now, I havn't ever really thought of giving it a try but maybe I should.
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Jan 27, 2020 3:22:12 GMT -5
Interesting - I've never seen either show, as we didn't have cable when I would have been the age to get into Scooby, and I Dobie Gillis was before my time (and I don't thin we ever had it in re-runs on any of our channels).
How good or bad was the Dobie Gillis show? Up to now, I havn't ever really thought of giving it a try but maybe I should.
The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis is smart and funny, a real precursor to shows like Square Pegs and Freaks and Geeks. Personally, I love it. (And a young Warren Beatty pops up from time to time as Dobie's rival, Milton Armitage.)
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 27, 2020 7:23:48 GMT -5
Crossovers are interesting when the players have that mix of contrast, yet similar at the same time (e.g. The Green Hornet and Kato guest starring on the Batman TV series in 1967), so there's almost a natural desire for them to meet and/or fight. Sticking Star Trek (especially the original series era) with POTA or the X-Men is schoolyard stuff that makes no sense at all, and its as bad as the nonsensical selection of guest stars on The New Scooby-Doo Movies cartoon (CBS, 1972-73) where they met animated versions of real life celebrities that had not even a passing connection/similarity to the main characters and thus there was no sense in their meeting. It did not help that many children did not even know who some of those celebrities were, or they were on projects kids did not necessarily have experience watching (how many 70s kids really watched Dick Van Dyke or listened to Jerry Reed, or Cass Elliot in what were her solo years?). Josie and the Pussycats? Of course, since the entire Scooby-Doo format /character models were ripped from Archie comics anyway, but Phyllis Diller? Come on. That's been the problem with comic crossovers like B&V meet Red Sonja/Vampirella. If you question it at first sight, then it strongly suggests it was not a good idea. Speaking as an actual seventies kid, one who was six years old when The New Scooby-Doo Movies debuted in 1972, I sure did recognize Don Knotts, Dick Van Dyke, Jerry Reed, Mama Cass, and Phyllis Diller, not to mention Jonathan Winters, Sandy Duncan, and Sonny and Cher. "The Andy Griffith Show" and "The Dick Van Dyke Show" were staples of late afternoon/early evening syndicated reruns. Jerry Reed had recently come off hosting the summer replacement variety show, "The Jerry Reed When You're Hot, You're Hot Hour," and the song had significant radio airplay. Cass Elliot had made lots of appearances on variety shows, comedy shows, game shows, and interview shows in the late sixties and early seventies that I had seen as a kid. Ditto, Phyllis Diller and Jonathan Winters and the other celebrities I've mentioned above, many of whom also did television commercials. Seventies kids didn't limit their television viewing to shows aimed at children. We also watched what our parents and grandparents watched ... because adults controlled the TV. In the early seventies, I tuned in to an episode of "Columbo" because Dick Van Dyke had been heavily advertised as guest-star, and the same for the Johnny Cash episode. At the time, I was more of a "MacMillan and Wife" and "McCloud" kid. My first TV crush was Peggy Lipton of "The Mod Squad" ca. 1970-71 - I was four years old at the time. The celebrities they chose for "The New Scooby-Doo Movies" were largely recognizable enough to kids in 1972-73. Some wouldn't be for much past those years. Hm, didn't notice tarkintino's comment earlier, but yeah, I agree with donaldg; even though I'm two years younger than he is, back in the early and mid '70s, I knew exactly who, for example, Dick Van Dyke, Jerry Reed and Phyllis Diller were, as well as the other 'adult' celebrities he mentioned. When those Scooby-Doo episodes were aired on Saturday mornings in subsequent years, I rarely had trouble recognizing who the guest stars were.
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Post by brutalis on Jan 27, 2020 7:25:29 GMT -5
In late for the Superfriends discussion, but why such sour grapes over a cartoon that at least looked like the characters and kept them fairly on model character and powers wise as well? So it was cheap television animation, there was no other kind outside of Disney big bucks movies to choose from. How cool was it having your comic books appear on the television every weekend morning? AND comics are about a hell of a lot more than "punching the bad guy", so it was nice to see these big name heroes advocating the use of brains over fists. I can enjoy the Superfriends all the same as I do in what passes as A-List Superhero movies or the Arrowverse today. Geez, some of you folks just like to complain over any and everything at times it seems.
And I love me some Dobie Gillis. Grew up with it every morning on a local channel here in Phoenix. Truly fun show without it being a dumb kind of fun. Thought it captured the teen vibe very well and will watch it over Saved by the Bell any day!
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Jan 27, 2020 9:02:01 GMT -5
Given that, as a seven year old, I was the target audience for Super Friends when it debuted in Fall 1973, it did its intended job.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 27, 2020 9:57:50 GMT -5
Fact: ABC bought a 16 episode order, from hanna-Barbera, of a one-hour cartoon, titled The Super Friends. It debuted in the Fall of 1973, and was broadcast for the entirety of the 1973-74 season, including the Spring and Summer. It was broadcast at 9:00 am EST for the entirety of the season. Fact: ABC re-ran the same 16 episode block of the Super Friends for the 1974-75 Season, at 11:00 am EST, for the entire season, including the Spring and Summer. Fact: ABC brought back the Super Friends for the Spring of the 1975-76 Season, as a replacement for the cancelled Uncle Croc's Block. It was shown through the summer. Fact: ABC again returned to the same 16 episodes of the Super Friends as a Spring replacement, for the 1976-77 season, in a half hour format, splitting the episodes into two parts. It took over the third half hour of the 90 minute Kroft Super Show, which was reduced to one hour. You can post "fact" as much as you like, but none of what you posted changes actual history: and you are not understanding the business of animated TV series, how they were produced or what was considered a success. The only facts are as follows: 1. ABC cancelled the 1973 Super Friends TV series because it was a ratings failure. That is an uncontested fact of history. No network cancels a successful cartoon. To suggest it is the polar opposite of how the business of TV works. 2. Typical of the era, if a cartoon was successful, a network would renew the series, ordering additional episodes, but only a limited number for a second season, as demonstrated in the examples of Star Trek, Scooby-Doo, Where Are You and The Brady Kids. That's how the business worked. 3. Failed cartoons were cancelled, not renewed. Failed examples are--but not limited to-- Help!... It's the Hair Bear Bunch!, The Roman Holidays, Hong Kong Phooey and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kids, each only running their original order of episodes, then cancelled after failing to attract enough viewers. 4. Logically, if the 1973 Super Friends was a success at all, ABC would have ordered more episodes as part of a second season renewal, as was the standard practice. They would not have cancelled the series, and certainly not retool its format if said format was successful. Again, that is how business works. A network rerunning a cancelled series is not a measure of success as the network had the option to rerun it (for whatever predetermined time) already added in the contract to fund and broadcast a series, hence the reason why failed one-season shows like 1966's The Green Hornet, the animated Addams Family (NBC, 1973) or Jeannie (CBS, 1973) were rerun after being cancelled during their one and only season. You are being highly deceptive: again, the original Super Friends was cancelled in 1974. It was not renewed. Renewal was a process that only happened to successful network cartoons of the era. So, unlike Filmation's Archie cartoons, which had an unbroken run of seven new series (with some reruns added to new episode packages) from 1968-1978, the Super friends suffered an undeniable death--cancellation--in 1974. The series was only exhumed from its cancelation burial ground thanks to the success of ABC's other superheroic series, The Six Million Dollar Man and Wonder Woman. At that point, ABC wanted another animated superhero series, but H-B would be tasked to retool the concept, since the first version was an obvious failure. Its about as arguable as "dead" when talking about George Washington's current status in the world; its the undeniable truth that he is dead, just as its the undeniable truth that the 1973 Super Friends was cancelled. As I already explained in an earlier post. But what you're not saying is the fact that there is no "might"; if a cartoon was a true hit, networks did not hesitate to order new episodes and renew the series, as seen with the 5 year run of Filmation's Superman cartoons (solo or part of a package with a then-new character). Incorrect. ABC did not see a one-hour series as the equivalent of two seasons, nor is there any evidence of ABC treating the series as such. This is you trying hard to spin that into the Super Friends lasting as long as two seasons, when it had the job--like every cartoon--of winning ratings in its lone season. If that did not happen, the series was cancelled. Timing is everything; in addition to the superheroic Six Million Dollar Man being a big hit, Wonder Woman proved to be successful in the months following its ABC debut on April 21, 1976; at that point, ABC knew superheroes were very profitable. That inspired them to try for another Saturday morning superhero cartoon, not reruns of a series they cancelled for low ratings. Yes, you have posted incredibly reaching supposition based on nothing more than favoritism toward the Super Friends, but there's no network business model you will ever find that has networks considering a cancelled series / one they refused to renew a success. The 1973 Super Friends was a ratings failure. So far, there's not a shred of evidence posted to prove it was not.
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