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Post by berkley on Oct 10, 2019 21:26:25 GMT -5
Religious exclusivism is an utterly bizarre, bewildering mindset. It's like claiming a single colour the only true colour and dismissing the entire rest of the rainbow as wrong/evil. I can't fathom it at all. I've been following what's been happening to people in Haiti who practice Vodou and they are literally being branded as evil, mostly started by outsiders, and in their own country! You have cases of Haitians attacking fellow Haitians under the influence of propaganda not even from their own country but from outside and another competing religion. It's really amazing how well the whole divide and conquer thing can work, and sometimes how fast. Then like politics you have a growing faction of people who are against all of it, blame all religion like they will say all politicians are equally bad and no longer participate. As we know Haiti has had natural disasters like other places, but when it happens to Haiti it's the fault of the people who practice Vodou... this is the "logic" of thousands of years ago. I haven't heard about this but at a guess, are the outsiders you mention as having started this stigmatisation of Vodou practitioners Evangelical Christians from the US? I ask because I have read about similar situations in Latin America.
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Post by beccabear67 on Oct 10, 2019 23:52:09 GMT -5
I haven't heard about this but at a guess, are the outsiders you mention as having started this stigmatisation of Vodou practitioners Evangelical Christians from the US? I ask because I have read about similar situations in Latin America. Yes. I guess they are on tv and radio stations easily picked up in the Caribbean. Jamaicans tuning in New Orleans radio went on to create Ska and Reggae, Haitians much later pick up CBN and similar and create... well, fear. And I say this as someone who went to a school that showed The 700 Club in class sometimes. I know there are a lot of other outifts beside CBN, but I do know they did at least one piece blaming Vodou after a big earthquake a few years ago and the usual talk of a "dark presence" in Haiti... oy vey! They also had a piece on superhero comics being satanic back when we were shown them in school... I can still remember a co-host, Ben Kinschlow (spelling?) testifying to a Batman hang-up figure somebody had "given" his son, and how there was a dark force they detected moving behind it and so had to take it down and destroy it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 11, 2019 5:57:31 GMT -5
Well, for a monotheistic religions with a revealed message, there isn’t much choice... either your one true god is the right one, or it isn’t. To reuse your color metaphor, polytheism describes the world as a rainbow, in which there isn’t a single “true” color... but monotheism is more like a dichotomy, light or darkness, and there is indeed only one light. Romans used to see early Christians as very intolerant, because they refused to accept that Rome’s gods were real... but it wasn’t a matter of tolerance, it was a matter of irreconcilable theological models (poly- vs monotheism). This often brings to mind the parable of the blind men and the elephant. It's one of my favourite parables. A group of blind men approach an elephant, and with no understanding of what an elephant looks like, proceed to touch different parts of the animal to gain an understanding of its nature. One touches an ear and declares the elephant is like a fan; another touches a tusk and declares its like a spear, etc. That's how I understand the nature of God and the different, seemingly irreconcilable spiritual paths of Man. I identify as a Christian; I consider Jesus a great spiritual and moral teacher, and the language and imagery of the New Testament resonates strongly with me. At the same time, I see the Bible as a human creation — an anthology of writings written by men separated by time, position, and understanding — which provides an imperfect & incomplete image of God. I look to other faiths to learn their insights and gain a more well-rounded picture of the Divine. I like the parable of the blind men since it teaches us humility in our perception of most of reality, but with Christianty or Islam it can only go so far. To a Christian, Jesus is not simply an inspirational figure; he is the son of God. That is not a matter of interpretation; one cannot be a Christian if one does not accept the divine nature of Jesus and the reality that he sacrificed himself to deliver mankind from the stigma of the original sin. Likewise, to a Moslem, Jesus is absolutely not divine (although he counts as a great prophet, just not as important as Muhammad). The latter, meanwhile, has received the actual, final communication from God to mankind, and the Quran is the ultimate authority in any legal and religious matter. Both of these monotheistic religions can agree that God is great, and just, and that He is the creator of everything... but barring the very natural desire to find common ground to avoid conflict, neither can agree that the other might be right in these fundamental aspects of their religion (the divinity of Jesus and the supremacy of the Quran). Mind, I’m quite happy to see Moslems, Christians, Jews and any other monotheists peacefully agree to disagree on certain points, and conclude that the other guys might have part of the story wrong, but are fundamentally in the right direction. As an atheist, I see in such an enlightened attitude a humanistic desire to live in peace and as much harmony as possible, and would wish it to be more widespread... but at the same time, I can not fault the logic of the more adamant members of these religions who insist that they are right and the others are wrong. It is just the nature of revealed truth not to leave a lot of theological elbow room.
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Post by The Captain on Oct 11, 2019 10:02:57 GMT -5
Roquefort Raider , as always, you so wonderfully and eloquently present points in a way far better than I ever could. As a Christian, I HAVE to believe that Jesus is divine made flesh, because my entire salvation depends upon that. If Jesus is just a "great spiritual and moral teacher", then his death on the cross is no different than the stoning of Stephen or James being executed by the sword; he becomes just another martyr, another human giving his life, to the cause of Christianity. However, if He is God Incarnate, then the Crucifixion is the moment when He becomes sin and fulfills the law, taking on the full penalty for my inability to perfectly follow that law and giving me new and eternal life. As for the inability for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and other religions being able to reconcile with one another, as RR puts it, that is a fundamental issue. If I am truly a Christian, then I have to believe that they are wrong. It doesn't work any other way, because if I don't, then I permit the possibility that "my" God is not "the" God and that their "god" may be just as valid as mine. It doesn't mean they are bad people, it just means that, in my belief, they are following false teachings. Thing is, I am instructed to follow two commandments above all others: Love the Lord my God with all my heart and soul and mind, and to love my neighbor as myself. My sister is an atheist (she grew up in the church but drifted away during college when she went to an uber-liberal school), but I love her immensely and it breaks my heart to know that in her current state, she's not going to Heaven, even though she is a really good person. However, I also know that by my loving her and doing what I can to show her God's love, there is always the chance that she will be moved and come back to faith, but I don't tell her she's bad or evil or sinful. We rarely discuss religion, and the moments where it does come up, we are respectful of one another. She comes to dinner, my family and I pray, and while she bows her head and holds hands with those at the table, she never says "Amen", but she also never mocks, and rarely questions, our faith, and never in front of my daughters. We understand that we have different beliefs, but that our love for one another is far more important and that we can coexist peacefully despite those differences. My main problem with many Christians, and I have numerous issues with my brothers and sisters, is that ignore the second of the two commandments I listed above. They want to beat people up, tell them they are wrong, and tell them they are going to Hell if they don't change their ways and beliefs, and this is completely antithetical to Jesus' teachings. We're called to reveal Christ to others through our actions and words, and if they are receptive, their hearts and minds will be opened to Him and they will be brought into fellowship with Him; we aren't supposed to beat them over the head with the Bible until they submit. For example, this is where I break from the church on issues like homosexuality. Yes, there are a handful of lines in the Bible that speak against homosexuality, but those lines have been translated over and over again to the point that we don't know what the original text actually said. Furthermore, those lines were written by men (not being sexist here, but that's the way it is) and while, as a Christian, I am to believe that all Scripture is "divinely inspired", humans still had their hand in writing those texts and all humans, including Christians, are flawed and broken and driven by their own agendas, even if God is supposedly in the mix. To that end, is homosexuality a sin? Based on Scripture, I should believe it is, but at the end of the day, even if it is, I'm in no position to judge, because I sin each and every day (multiple times, in multiple ways) and there is no sin (except for blasphemy) that is unpardonable. My job is to love God and to love ALL people, regardless of their sin, and I try as best I can, even though I know that I fall short in doing so. Whether or not homosexuality or transgenderism or smoking pot or getting tattoos or rounding down numbers on taxes or any other myriad of things are sins that will keep people out of Heaven, my simple answer is "I don't know". However, God knows, and His plans are bigger and more mysterious than anything I can, with my human mind, ever hope to grasp. God will sort all of that stuff out at the end, but I believe there a lot of people who "KNOW" they are going to Heaven are going to be in for a rude surprise. As Jesus said "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Beating people up, both literally and figuratively, for their supposed sins, while ignoring one's own is part of what He is speaking about here, so some self-righteous folks in the Evangelical Right, who believe they have God on speed-dial and are locked in for their trip to Heaven, may have another thing coming, as many certainly don't practice love and mercy and justice towards the widow, orphan, sojourner or alien. Sorry if I went around Adam's barn on this, but I had a lot to unpack.
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Post by beccabear67 on Oct 11, 2019 13:05:41 GMT -5
I think some people want to know so bad that they will decide they do know something that logically may be unknowable. I got a lot of good things from the Christian Bible, and not necessarily that Baal is false and must be destroyed (though I did have to write a report on that in Bible class circa grade 9-10). What I find valubale/challenging would be the lesson on why praying in public can be wrong, turning the other cheek, and that faith without acts is empty. Now by acts I hope for good acts, stuff that hidden now would be revealed later, not the smiting of Baal etc. Small c Christian people is what I grew up with mostly (before that school I mentioned)... definitely a more English and Dutch protestant sort, about living, walking the walk, reflecting, being open in humility to learning. Brotherhood of man, judge not (harshly) lest ye be judged (harshly), love can cover a multitude of sins, the timber in they own eye... I have no issues with atheism, or inherently other beliefs existing, have a Qur-An and translated Upanishads on my bookshelf among other things. I think it was that Baal story that may've led me to Jospeh Campbell and comparative theology in the first place anyway, I got curious about other beliefs; maybe not the lesson the Bible class teacher had intended? I don't know about chanting as a type of prayer though, that comes in with a lot of religions... I wonder what God would want to hear the same thing over and over robotically mostly? Ideally we could express things like this without conflict, same as with political ideals. I'm sure I am on the list of damned according to more than one group, I don't worry about it if any of them truly do either. I am still going to honestly try and maybe fail sometimes, sorry Yoda.
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Post by Duragizer on Oct 11, 2019 13:30:09 GMT -5
This often brings to mind the parable of the blind men and the elephant. It's one of my favourite parables. A group of blind men approach an elephant, and with no understanding of what an elephant looks like, proceed to touch different parts of the animal to gain an understanding of its nature. One touches an ear and declares the elephant is like a fan; another touches a tusk and declares its like a spear, etc. That's how I understand the nature of God and the different, seemingly irreconcilable spiritual paths of Man. I identify as a Christian; I consider Jesus a great spiritual and moral teacher, and the language and imagery of the New Testament resonates strongly with me. At the same time, I see the Bible as a human creation — an anthology of writings written by men separated by time, position, and understanding — which provides an imperfect & incomplete image of God. I look to other faiths to learn their insights and gain a more well-rounded picture of the Divine. I like the parable of the blind men since it teaches us humility in our perception of most of reality, but with Christianty or Islam it can only go so far. To a Christian, Jesus is not simply an inspirational figure; he is the son of God. That is not a matter of interpretation; one cannot be a Christian if one does not accept the divine nature of Jesus and the reality that he sacrificed himself to deliver mankind from the stigma of the original sin. Likewise, to a Moslem, Jesus is absolutely not divine (although he counts as a great prophet, just not as important as Muhammad). The latter, meanwhile, has received the actual, final communication from God to mankind, and the Quran is the ultimate authority in any legal and religious matter. I'm left wondering, though, who exactly determines these things. The mainline trinitarian denominations, I suppose; they've held the reins of Christendom since 325 AD. But where does that leave non-trinitarians, like the Arians and Adoptionists? Neither camp believes Jesus is an eternal divinity equal to the Father; the latter even believes Jesus was completely human until his baptism/resurrection/ascension. And what about figures like Leo Tolstoy? Tolstoy didn't seem to care all that much about Jesus' divinity, but his entire philosophy and lifestyle was strongly shaped by Jesus' teachings. Then you've got people like Gretta Vosper, who's an ordained minister and an atheist. Perhaps I've drank too deep from the well of postmodernism, but I think there's more to a religious/spiritual identity than how rigidly one adheres to a checklist of doctrines.
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Post by berkley on Oct 12, 2019 0:57:21 GMT -5
but at the same time, I can not fault the logic of the more adamant members of these religions who insist that they are right and the others are wrong. It is just the nature of revealed truth not to leave a lot of theological elbow room. Yes - but in that case, how can they be anything but intolerant? - not through any fault of their own, but because of the very nature of the creed, as an exclusively revealed truth ? To keep true to it they must not ever tolerate any deviation from it whatsoever.
When enforced upon other people as well as ourselves, that's an immediate problem, and thus obvious: the Inquisition, Daesh, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Evangelical Christians of the kind Beccabear was talking about, etc etc.
On the personal level, perhaps the repercussions are less immediately obvious. We must all look within ourselves.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 12, 2019 8:17:02 GMT -5
but at the same time, I can not fault the logic of the more adamant members of these religions who insist that they are right and the others are wrong. It is just the nature of revealed truth not to leave a lot of theological elbow room.Yes - but in that case, how can they be anything but intolerant? - not through any fault of their own, but because of the very nature of the creed, as an exclusively revealed truth ? To keep true to it they must not ever tolerate any deviation from it whatsoever. That is the main problem with any revealed truth. Of course, decent human beings (that is, most human beings) will act upon said revealed truth according to their own conscience (see The Captain ’s moving story about his relationship with his atheist sister, above). The Old Testament may say that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death, but of course nobody acts on it, unless they’re psychopaths. Even while considering the Bible as the word of God, most people will adopt a “hate the sin, love the sinner” attitude, combined with a good dose of “love thy neighbour like thyself”. The end result is that, like the pope himself, they will not say that homosexuality is all right (even if personally they might not see why it should be a problem, apart from the fact God seems to frown upon it) but they will not condemn homosexuals, leaving any judgement (if judgement there must be, because “judge not” and all that) to God. Meanwhile, a minority will adopt a rigorist attitude where every comma in whatever sacred book is important. Of course, this immediately leads to excess and conflict, as demonstrated by the unavoidable schisms seen in all religions relying on revealed truth. Christianity and Islam had branches that went to war against each other, even if at the core they should be religions of peace! Most people, thankfully, are not integrists. Still, when it comes to the core message of their religion, and even if they are absolutely tolerant of others (even sacrificing themselves for people with vastly different beliefs), their world view is not compatible with certain other world views. To wit, Christianity is perfectly compatible with, say, the findings of biology. The pope, him again, has no problem with scientific findings; all he adds is that everything was ordained by God, in His infinite wisdom. However, Christianity is incompatible with Hinduism and its chain of reincarnations. That does not make Hindus bad people, in Christian eyes, but people who are wrong about how the afterlife works. Duragizer asked a great question, earlier: who decides that? I have no exact answer, but personally I think it is just what is commonly accepted in the different creeds under scrutiny. Of course we don’t want to fall prey to the “no real Scotsman” fallacy, but it is commonly accepted, say, that Christian cosmology has no room for reincarnation, being all based on salvation and resurrection. Naturally, some schisms may become so important as to warrant modifications to the accepted view: hence, I have met Christians who believed in reincarnation. (Not on theological grounds, I think, but because they’d rather be reincarnated as dogs than going to Hell). Who would I be to tell them they were not “true” Christians? A theologian might explain why the two concepts are not compatible, and an encyclopedia might state the same thing. But if we had a few million Christians thinking the same thing, we’d simply have a new branch, viewed with theological suspicion by others, but probably no less real for all that (see Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses, who were lucky enough not to live back when schismatic movements led one to the pyre).
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 12, 2019 9:27:36 GMT -5
Speaking of religion .... as I’ve mentioned before I was raised Jehovahs Witness. Probably the most notorious for preaching their religion is the “truth”. I don’t practice anymore. Haven’t for almost 20 years. And I am, so thankful. For me this life now, my wife, my boys, my time on this Earth are the most important things for me.
After the angry at god stage, then wtf happens at death scare if I don’t believe in god; I got to basically “to hell with it all”. As one raised from birth I think the only downside to this religious intolerance is the breeding of more tribalism. Don’t we have enough of that in politics? I don’t know about other Christian religions but JWs teach all other religion texts are the devils propaganda. Whereas to me if you’re so confident your religion is the one true religion than nothing should be feared about me reading the Dhali Lama’s writing for instance. But like I said I just closed that whole can of worms for myself and it’s such a relief.
Also great posts RR. That’s a great and unbiased take on religion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2019 11:30:43 GMT -5
Alter Bridge's vocalist Myles Kennedy is one of the best in rock music right now. Not only can he belt out a song but I love his softer acoustic stuff:
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 16, 2019 18:13:53 GMT -5
I said it before, but I’ll say it again:
Han didn’t shoot first. He’s the only one who shot.
There! I said it. Twice.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 12:15:11 GMT -5
I said it before, but I’ll say it again: Han didn’t shoot first. He’s the only one who shot. There! I said it. Twice.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Oct 17, 2019 23:32:24 GMT -5
I'm sure George thought it'd be cute to wear that t-shirt, but that picture really annoys me. That's basically George Lucas laughing at the fans who made him a multi-millionaire and belittling their concerns...and that doesn't sit right with me.
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Post by The Captain on Oct 25, 2019 9:31:32 GMT -5
I read in our local paper recently about a family that had set up an elaborate Halloween display in their front yard. After it had been up for about a week, a vandal or vandals came through and trashed the entire thing in the late hours of the night/early hours of the morning.
As well, a house near mine had put out mini pumpkins along the walkway from their driveway to their front door. I drove by this morning and saw a few of them smashed on the ground. It was obviously intentional, as simply falling from the height they were set at would not have done that kind of damage.
To people out there who feel the need to vandalize other peoples' property, just f@#$ing stop it. They took the time to purchase those items and set them up, in this case for some seasonal cheer, but it doesn't matter if it's just pumpkins or plastic skeletons, however. It extends to tearing up flower beds, keying cars or slashing tires, egging windows, or any of the myriad of things that are done to deface or destroy something that isn't yours. Have some respect for your neighbors, have some respect for their property, and if you really want to break something, do it in your own home and see how it feels when you're done instead of victimizing someone who did nothing to you to deserve it.
There. I said it.
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Post by brutalis on Oct 25, 2019 9:57:35 GMT -5
I read in our local paper recently about a family that had set up an elaborate Halloween display in their front yard. After it had been up for about a week, a vandal or vandals came through and trashed the entire thing in the late hours of the night/early hours of the morning. As well, a house near mine had put out mini pumpkins along the walkway from their driveway to their front door. I drove by this morning and saw a few of them smashed on the ground. It was obviously intentional, as simply falling from the height they were set at would not have done that kind of damage. To people out there who feel the need to vandalize other peoples' property, just f@#$ing stop it. They took the time to purchase those items and set them up, in this case for some seasonal cheer, but it doesn't matter if it's just pumpkins or plastic skeletons, however. It extends to tearing up flower beds, keying cars or slashing tires, egging windows, or any of the myriad of things that are done to deface or destroy something that isn't yours. Have some respect for your neighbors, have some respect for their property, and if you really want to break something, do it in your own home and see how it feels when you're done instead of victimizing someone who did nothing to you to deserve it. There. I said it. Crazy you mention this today as this morning around 4am after I had awoke, I kept hearing a car engine idling outside my home. As i investigated, it was a Police SUV parked square in front of my driveway. The officer was across the street with my neighbor. Spoke with her to see if all is OK and what happened. She has night job and usually comes in around 4-5am and this morning as she pulled into her driveway she scared off some punks who were in the middle of trashing her Halloween decorations in her front yard that she had just put up over the weekend. Nothing fancy or expensive just like you say plastic stuff and pumpkins. Annoying as all get out that others think it is fun or cool to destroying other peoples property. No wonder the world is falling apart around us when idiots as this are going to be the next generation.
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