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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 18, 2019 21:25:21 GMT -5
So I originally titled the thread "PSA: Green Goblin/Norman Osborn was probably Ditko's idea." But further research while I was writing this showed that John Romita confirmed Ditko originated the Green Goblin as Norman Osborn's secret identity. Reprinted here. And that pretty much removes any ambiguity. Romita: "By the way, the choice of Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin was Ditko's. Lee was going to have GG revealed to be Ned Leeds, but Ditko was too fond of Ned so he drew the mags so that Osborn HAD to be the Green Goblin."And here's Ditko from a 2009 (yes, 2009!) issue of Robin Snyder's Fanzine The Comics: Ditko: "Now digest this: I knew from Day One, from the first GG story, who the GG would be. I absolutely knew because I planted him in J. Jonah Jameson’s businessmans club, it was where JJJ and the GG could be seen together. I planted them together in other stories where the GG would not appear in costume, action.”
“I wanted JJJ’s and the GG’s lives to mix for later story drama involving more than just the two characters”
“I planted the GG’s son (same distinctive hair style) in the college issues for more dramatic involvement and storyline consequences”
“So how could there be any doubt, dispute, about who the GG had to turn out to be when unmasked?”"Now Stan Lee also claims it was his idea - he even (I believe) claims that Ditko left Marvel because Stan wanted the Green Goblin to be Osborn. But: (A) Stan's memory was notoriously faulty, and (B) reading the text shows us that: The Green Goblin has a secret identity. The secret identity was not shown to the readers but was shown to be of some importance. Norman always harbored villainous intentions.  There is a lot of this kind of stuff in Ditko's Norman Osborn. I've heard fans speculate that Ditko's objectivist beliefs would not allow a rich entrepreneur to be a bad guy, but that is an unsupportable belief if you actually read the dang comics. So the bizarre claim that Ditko left Marvel because he didn't want the Goblin to be Norman Osborn was clearly false. Brian Cronin analyzes the evidence here. Brian Cronin: "But really, one of the things I overlooked earlier was that towards the end of their partnership, Ditko was not even communicating with Lee directly. He was dropping off issues completely drawn and Lee would then just script them. I imagine someone must have been working as a go-between (reader Tony notes it was likely Sol Brodsky, Marvel's production manager at the time. Thanks, Tony!). However, it seems hard to believe that under this arrangement, Ditko could ever have been FORCED to reveal the Green Goblin as anyone he did not want to reveal him as."And accounts from two of the three major Silver Age Spider-Man creators who have reliable memories of the time-period confirm Ditko's story. However: (A) I don't think that who had the idea is as important as the execution of the idea. And while Ditko's Spider-man on the whole are my favorite superhero comic of all time, even I think the last couple issues of his run are pretty bad. (B) And it's a little weird that Ditko waited more than 40 years to talk about the situation publicly. But it seems pretty clear that the original idea was Ditko's. I don't think you can argue against the evidence here. |
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 19, 2019 18:19:22 GMT -5
Of COURSE it was Steve Ditko's idea.
Steve Ditko was THE WRITER on the book from the beginning. Some of the early villains and story ideas came from Jack Kirby, but Ditko was ALWAYS the writer on the book. His editor would use or edit the final dialogue as he saw fit.
About halfway thru the "20s", Ditko got fed up with not being paid for work he was already doing, and confronted his boss. From that point on, Ditko was credited-- AND PAID-- for his writing. But his boss deeply resented the fact that he was no longer able to STEAL the writing money... so he stopped speaking to Ditko. Whenever Ditko came into the office with new pages, he had to deal with Sol Brodsky, who also gave him his paychecks.
This situation existed at least a YEAR before Ditko left the book.
Any plot holes, glitches or seeming contraditions were always a direct result of his editor either NOT paying attention, or DELIBERATELY tampering with Ditko's work.
At the same time, he was repeatedly bad-mouthing Ditko on the letters pages, the bullpen pages, and even in fanzine interviews. This went on until Ditko finally couldn't put up with it any more... and LEFT.
One more thing to take into account... is just how much of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN was semi-autobiographical. Think of it this way...
Peter Parker -- Steve Ditko
Betty Brant -- Flo Steinberg
J. Jonah Jameson -- S*** L**
NO KIDDING.
Remember that scene in ASM #33, when Peter finally STOOD UP to his boss and demanded he be PAID what he was worth? YEAH.
In real life... Peter would have QUIT that job a few months later, and never had to put up with JJJ's INSANE B.S. again.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 19, 2019 19:56:01 GMT -5
That’s a new one for me. I never heard that Ditko wrote it from the beginning.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 20, 2019 5:12:14 GMT -5
That’s a new one for me. I never heard that Ditko wrote it from the beginning. Well, I've never seen any proof of that myself. In an interview with New York magazine in 1965, Stan Lee said: "I don't plot SPIDER-MAN anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I'll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he's the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. [...] He just drops off the finished pages with notes in the margins, and I fill in the dialogue."And while I tend to mistrust Stan's after-the-fact pronouncements, I tend to believe his assessment of (then) current affairs. If we believe Stan here - and, again, I think we should - it indicates. (A) Spider-Man was originally either plotted by Lee or co-plotted by Lee and Ditko. B) At some point Ditko took over as sole plotter. Stan, of course, did keep writing the dialogue. And while some of the words might have come from Ditko, the overall cadence and tone of the writing throughout first 38 issues of Amazing Spider-Man is consistent with the other Marvel books Stan was writing. And highly inconsistent with future works that Ditko wrote solo.* My basic take - Ditko was the primary creative contributor for much of the first 38 issues of ASM, but there is virtually no chance the feature would have been successful without Stan's writing. * IMO, most of the stuff that Ditko actually wrote solo is, not to mince words, borderline unreadable. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 20, 2019 5:52:15 GMT -5
That’s a new one for me. I never heard that Ditko wrote it from the beginning. Well, I've never seen any proof of that myself. In an interview with New York magazine in 1965, Stan Lee said: "I don't plot SPIDER-MAN anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I'll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he's the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. [...] He just drops off the finished pages with notes in the margins, and I fill in the dialogue."And while I tend to mistrust Stan's after-the-fact pronouncements, I tend to believe his assessment of (then) current affairs. If we believe Stan here - and, again, I think we should - it indicates. (A) Spider-Man was originally either plotted by Lee or co-plotted by Lee and Ditko. B) At some point Ditko took over as sole plotter. Stan, of course, did keep writing the dialogue. And while some of the words might have come from Ditko, the overall cadence and tone of the writing throughout first 38 issues of Amazing Spider-Man is consistent with the other Marvel books Stan was writing. And highly inconsistent with future works that Ditko wrote solo.* My basic take - Ditko was the primary creative contributor for much of the first 38 issues of ASM, but there is virtually no chance the feature would have been successful without Stan's writing. * IMO, most of the stuff that Ditko actually wrote solo is, not to mince words, borderline unreadable. I see it as maybe Stan wrote the first 20 or so issues and then let Ditko do most of the work after that. I mean, after all, Stan was doing virtually all of the writing for the Marvel line. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 20, 2019 7:08:09 GMT -5
Well, I've never seen any proof of that myself. In an interview with New York magazine in 1965, Stan Lee said: "I don't plot SPIDER-MAN anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I'll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he's the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. [...] He just drops off the finished pages with notes in the margins, and I fill in the dialogue."And while I tend to mistrust Stan's after-the-fact pronouncements, I tend to believe his assessment of (then) current affairs. If we believe Stan here - and, again, I think we should - it indicates. (A) Spider-Man was originally either plotted by Lee or co-plotted by Lee and Ditko. B) At some point Ditko took over as sole plotter. Stan, of course, did keep writing the dialogue. And while some of the words might have come from Ditko, the overall cadence and tone of the writing throughout first 38 issues of Amazing Spider-Man is consistent with the other Marvel books Stan was writing. And highly inconsistent with future works that Ditko wrote solo.* My basic take - Ditko was the primary creative contributor for much of the first 38 issues of ASM, but there is virtually no chance the feature would have been successful without Stan's writing. * IMO, most of the stuff that Ditko actually wrote solo is, not to mince words, borderline unreadable. I see it as maybe Stan wrote the first 20 or so issues and then let Ditko do most of the work after that. I mean, after all, Stan was doing virtually all of the writing for the Marvel line. I don't think Stan solo wrote the first 20 issues - and I don't have proof that it was 20 issues - but this feels right to me. Also, FWIW, I think Stan is actually under-rated as a writer at this point. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 20, 2019 8:01:45 GMT -5
The popularity of Spider-man skyrocketed after Ditko left the book. If he was the major writing force, that would not have happened.
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 20, 2019 11:37:42 GMT -5
One thing I have heard is that Stan wrote SM and PP as a wounded teen, and Ditko wanted him to be more a lone objectivist hero.
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Post by Rob Allen on Apr 20, 2019 19:47:47 GMT -5
Stan and Steve differed on the nature of heroism. But the reason Steve left is that Martin Goodman had promised him that he would be paid for Spider-Man merchandising, but no payments were forthcoming.
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Post by Duragizer on Apr 20, 2019 23:18:31 GMT -5
One thing I have heard is that Stan wrote SM and PP as a wounded teen, and Ditko wanted him to be more a lone objectivist hero. Oh, wouldn't that have been peachy. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 21, 2019 5:55:18 GMT -5
The popularity of Spider-man skyrocketed after Ditko left the book. If he was the major writing force, that would not have happened. If I remember right, based on second-hand accounts from people who worked at Marvel* It went from the # 2 seller behind Fantastic Four to the # 1 seller in the Marvel line. * I can't find any sales data on Spidey sales pre 1966. And the sales data from after that has a huge possibility for error - companies were self reporting, right? John Romita (again) from a Comic Book Artist Interview.CBA: Did Stan tell you when Spider-Man started outselling Fantastic Four?
John: Oh yes, he wasn't hiding that. It must've been a year later; we didn't get the figures very quickly in those days. I really didn't trust those figures; if the figures said you're selling well, you're probably selling better than that. Those figures were very suspect; like the record business, publishers were very sneaky, and they didn't want to share the profits, but you were the first one to share their losses.It's all we have to go on, and it's worth analyzing, but I think you need the "This could all be crap" caveat when looking at comic sales data. I certainly believe that sales went up when Romita took over the book, though. The Romita run is a much slicker commercial product. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Apr 21, 2019 8:23:58 GMT -5
Interesting info
All I know is that I love Stan for being a savvy character that drove the Marvel machine. I love Steve for drawing Spidey and inventing or co-inventing the best rogues gallery ever. I love John for giving the book a change from dorky awkwardness to crisp clean lines. Kind of reflective of someone maturing a bit. It all worked so magically and everyone should be equally commended
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 21, 2019 9:15:34 GMT -5
Interesting info All I know is that I love Stan for being a savvy character that drove the Marvel machine. He was certainly that. I fear that Ditko would have eventually sunk the Spider-man book if he was allowed to run the storylines. His entire attitude towards life seemed to be negative. Also, He has no track record after Spider-man for sustaining a 38 book run. |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 21, 2019 10:29:42 GMT -5
The popularity of Spider-man skyrocketed after Ditko left the book. If he was the major writing force, that would not have happened. The Ditko period was largely depressing in tone, as if Parker were trapped in a guaranteed haze of hopelessness. The Romita era certainly played on Parker--and his supporting cast's troubles--but the book took on a dramatic edge which expanded the scope of his conflicts with villains who were far more than the B-crime film type of criminals, or 50s sci-fi knock-offs. The Romita era making Spider-Man the most visible, relevant comic character of the 60s and most of the 70s was no accident; it took innovation, knowing the era in which the title flourished (mirroring it) and believable maturation in order for the title and character to become the face of Marvel, rivalling longtime icons such as Superman and/or Batman, who had decades of publishing and media exposure on him, but saw the gap close in only a few short years. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Apr 21, 2019 14:08:21 GMT -5
Oh I agree. Early Spidey was full of depressing tones which fit it but when Romita came on board in was what was needed. I do think Ditkos bleak outlook would have destroyed the character. It’s likely why none of his subsequent stuff never lasted as long.
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