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Post by String on Jan 21, 2020 21:30:50 GMT -5
All due respect, but comparing someone to Jack Kirby is like comparing someone to Michael Jordan. You always end up losing the argument. In Ditko's case, perhaps. But the industry certainly had a number of giants who changed the way comics were viewed and created heightened expectations of what comics should be in their own ways. Who would you recommend? The way I see it, when discussing Kirby, you could do it two ways: if you are considering Kirby solely as an artist, then yes, I think there may be other notable artists whose work could be comparably to Kirby in terms of style and influence. However, if you're considering Kirby as a creator overall or even visionary, then I think the list just got very short indeed. The man's influence on the medium and industry is staggering. Longevity of his career alongside no appreciable drop in his creativity also has to be considered. I'm not sure who else may have had such a dynamic and long-standing impact. Eisner perhaps?
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 22, 2020 1:15:57 GMT -5
Anything more specific about his chin work? A visual reference? I never really noticed anything peculiar other than he doesn't often use the square jaw/chin heroic "ideal" that Kirby favors.
His faces quite often seem to me to have 'weak', thin chins and overlarge foreheads - a bit like the man himself now I come to think of it.
That appears to be the case. Hang ups/preferences like that rarely made anyone a good artist.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 22, 2020 2:01:30 GMT -5
To get back on topic.... I also dislike the way Ditko draws chins. Kirby may have had a bit of a (comic code compliance?) problem with crotches and the lack of junk under everyone's Lycra boxers but there's no excuse for these kind of receding micro-jawlines
His faces quite often seem to me to have 'weak', thin chins and overlarge foreheads - a bit like the man himself now I come to think of it. Well, part of that is, of course, a stylistic trait for sure, but not all of his characters looked like that. One of the things I love about Steve Ditko's art is that he knew how to draw real people, rather than just the square-jawed heroic ideal of Kirby. Ditko's characters are often ungainly or weirdly ugly or have a bit of a "prickly" edge to their countenance -- you know, a bit like people in the real world sometimes do. This is why he was absolutely the right person to draw the awkward and angsty 15-year-old Peter Parker. Or as Alan Moore put it... “There was a kind of tormented elegance to the way that his characters stood, the way that they bent their hands. His characters always looked very highly strung. They always looked as if they were on the edge of some kind of revelation or breakdown. There was something a bit feverish about Steve Ditko.”
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Post by junkmonkey on Jan 22, 2020 4:06:42 GMT -5
However, if you're considering Kirby as a creator overall or even visionary, then I think the list just got very short indeed. The man's influence on the medium and industry is staggering. Longevity of his career alongside no appreciable drop in his creativity also has to be considered. I'm not sure who else may have had such a dynamic and long-standing impact. Eisner perhaps?
Just want to mention that in the context of American comics that's almost certainly true but there are different comic traditions out there in the wider world. Who knows who someone bought up exclusively in the Franco-Belge BD world say would nominate as the most influential artist - Herge perhaps? I don't know enough to draw up a short list.
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Post by junkmonkey on Jan 22, 2020 4:22:29 GMT -5
Well, part of that is, of course, a stylistic trait for sure, but not all of his characters looked like that. One of the things I love about Steve Ditko's art is that he knew how to draw real people, rather than just the square-jawed heroic ideal of Kirby. Ditko's characters are often ungainly or weirdly ugly or have a bit of a "prickly" edge to their countenance -- you know, a bit like people in the real world sometimes do. This is why he was absolutely the right person to draw the awkward and angsty 15-year-old Peter Parker.
The thread is 'who did it better for you?' - for me it's Kirby. Though I am often brought up short by Kirby's clunking anatomy - there are times when his hands look like knotted strings of flattened sausages - I have often tried to take Kirby's art to pieces on my drawing board. Looked at it. Copied it. Tried to piece together why it works; how his pages hold together so well. Looked at details. Tried to understand how much of the space-filling detail was planned or just there on automatic pilot. In short, studied the bugger - not that you would notice from my own crappy finished art.
I've never felt the need to do that with Ditko.
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Post by berkley on Jan 22, 2020 4:30:31 GMT -5
To get back on topic.... I also dislike the way Ditko draws chins. Kirby may have had a bit of a (comic code compliance?) problem with crotches and the lack of junk under everyone's Lycra boxers but there's no excuse for these kind of receding micro-jawlines
His faces quite often seem to me to have 'weak', thin chins and overlarge foreheads - a bit like the man himself now I come to think of it. Well, part of that is, of course, a stylistic trait for sure, but not all of his characters looked like that. One of the things I love about Steve Ditko's art is that he knew how to draw real people, rather than just the square-jawed heroic ideal of Kirby. Ditko's characters are often ungainly or weirdly ugly or have a bit of a "prickly" edge to their countenance -- you know, a bit like people in the real world sometimes do. This is why he was absolutely the right person to draw the awkward and angsty 15-year-old Peter Parker. Or as Alan Moore put it... “There was a kind of tormented elegance to the way that his characters stood, the way that they bent their hands. His characters always looked very highly strung. They always looked as if they were on the edge of some kind of revelation or breakdown. There was something a bit feverish about Steve Ditko.”Reminds one of Rorschach in Moore's Watchmen, does it not?
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Post by MDG on Jan 22, 2020 9:29:33 GMT -5
However, if you're considering Kirby as a creator overall or even visionary, then I think the list just got very short indeed. The man's influence on the medium and industry is staggering. Longevity of his career alongside no appreciable drop in his creativity also has to be considered. I'm not sure who else may have had such a dynamic and long-standing impact. Eisner perhaps?
Just want to mention that in the context of American comics that's almost certainly true but there are different comic traditions out there in the wider world. Who knows who someone bought up exclusively in the Franco-Belge BD world say would nominate as the most influential artist - Herge perhaps? I don't know enough to draw up a short list. And in the context of all American comics, not just superheroes, there are others with the same (or larger) influence than Kirby: Barks, Kurtzman, Crumb, Hernandez...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 23:23:44 GMT -5
Except for Spider-Man & Dr. Strange I never really experienced that much of Ditko's art.
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Post by berkley on Jan 22, 2020 23:35:29 GMT -5
Except for Spider-Man & Dr. Strange I never really experienced that much of Ditko's art. I like the Creeper - also from the 60s, not, I think, coincidentally - and the black and white stuff he did for Warren around the same era. But I like his much more recent black and white solo work too - the artwork, if not the writing. The latter is of interest as an expression of his peculiar obsessions, but doesn't make for great story-telling (if that's even what he's trying to do).
To denigrate Kirby's or Ditko's - or anyone's - work on the basis that it's idiosyncratic doesn't make sense to me: you want artists to develop a personal rather than just a cookie-cutter style. And some of the most popular, widely-accepted superhero artwork - the 90s stuff, for example - not only looks awful to me personally, but I would argue is objectively just as weird and unrealistic in its own way as either Ditko or Kirby are in theirs: it just happens to be in look that readers are used to and therefore think of as normal. And at least Ditko and Kirby were following their own path rather than just going along with some larger movement.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 24, 2020 1:47:40 GMT -5
In Ditko's case, perhaps. But the industry certainly had a number of giants who changed the way comics were viewed and created heightened expectations of what comics should be in their own ways. Who would you recommend? The way I see it, when discussing Kirby, you could do it two ways: if you are considering Kirby solely as an artist, then yes, I think there may be other notable artists whose work could be comparably to Kirby in terms of style and influence. However, if you're considering Kirby as a creator overall or even visionary, then I think the list just got very short indeed. The man's influence on the medium and industry is staggering. Longevity of his career alongside no appreciable drop in his creativity also has to be considered. I'm not sure who else may have had such a dynamic and long-standing impact. Eisner perhaps? in America - The Big Five are Kirby - good is subjective, but comics = superheroes for a lot of the Gen X and older population, and Kirby single-handedly defined the Bigger! More Intense! aesthetic of superhero comics. Grab any superhero comic from 1978 or today and there's a huge Kirby influence. Probably moreso today, in the era of bigger panels and constant splash pages. Eisner - The first major formalist to work in American comics. Advanced the technical storytelling in comics by decades. Incredibly important influence on Miller, Moore, Gaiman, all the guys that moved mainstream factory system comics in a more arty/adult direction in the '80s. Kurtzman - Mad is the most important American comic ever (even when it changed to Magazine format.) It completely changed the tone of young adult comedy. And his war stuff had a political, philosophical, and moral depth that influenced everyone who was making comics for older-than-twelve year olds. Barks - More important in Europe than America, but still incredibly important here. Still probably the best worldbuilder in mainstream comics. Crumb - Expanded the potential subject matter of comics into (extremely) adult comics, and showed their was a market for independently produced creator driven comics. Our current comics culture - where the vast majority of comic readers only read single creator produced graphic novels - can be traced directly back to Crumb. Oddly enough Ditko seems to have more influence on independent creators - Hernandez, Clowes, Stan Saki, the Fort Thunder Guys, Charles Burns. (I assume?) Comics have moved away from his more cerebral and introverted style, which is a shame.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jan 24, 2020 12:59:11 GMT -5
Looking forward to Kirby Collector 78, looks like a great special issue! I've never bought one before (just what they gave away as a pdf of one issue with an earlier order) but I had to order the print edition for this one! Paired it with Alter Ego 163 which is a Cockrum special coming soon (around the same time I'm hoping so they can be mailed together). I think it was the piece on Kirby regarding the Fleischer studios that really hooked me, not something I knew anything about. twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=133&products_id=1520
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 13:11:12 GMT -5
Looking forward to Kirby Collector 78, looks like a great special issue! I've never bought one before (just what they gave away as a pdf of one issue with an earlier order) but I had to order the print edition for this one! Paired it with Alter Ego 163 which is a Cockrum special coming soon (around the same time I'm hoping so they can be mailed together). I think it was the piece on Kirby regarding the Fleischer studios that really hooked me, not something I knew anything about. twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=133&products_id=1520My first issue of Jack Kirby Collector will be #78 too. Can't wait!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 13:26:52 GMT -5
Do you think a TwoMorrows topic would work here? Each time an issue of BI, Alter Ego and Jack Kirby Collector are released, someone, such as myself, could post the cover - and just share some first impressions of the content. I'm thinking no need for us all to read it in full at the same time, just share the cover, post some views - and then when the next issue of those publications comes out, discussion of prior issue contents ceases and we move on.
I'd be willing to do such a topic.
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Post by profh0011 on Jan 24, 2020 16:17:25 GMT -5
To denigrate Kirby's or Ditko's - or anyone's - work on the basis that it's idiosyncratic doesn't make sense to me: you want artists to develop a personal rather than just a cookie-cutter style. And some of the most popular, widely-accepted superhero artwork - the 90s stuff, for example - not only looks awful to me personally, but I would argue is objectively just as weird and unrealistic in its own way as either Ditko or Kirby are in theirs: it just happens to be in look that readers are used to and therefore think of as normal. And at least Ditko and Kirby were following their own path rather than just going along with some larger movement.
Schulz, Caniff, Raymond, Aragones, Foglio, Herge... each unique stylists. The people who actually complain about art "not being realistic" are being silly.
"readers are used to"
This goes for DIALOGUE as well.
Someone else pointed this out to me, and I have become 100% convinced by it. The people who always have to go out of their way and make a point of KNOCKING how Kirby writes dialogue... are only doing it because they're fans of STAN LEE.
This would be like knocking Red Robins Seasoned Steak Fries (I have 3 bags in my freezer) because all you're used to are those "kiddie fries" that McDonald's makes.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 24, 2020 16:37:48 GMT -5
Someone else pointed this out to me, and I have become 100% convinced by it. The people who always have to go out of their way and make a point of KNOCKING how Kirby writes dialogue... are only doing it because they're fans of STAN LEE. No, it's because they're fans of good dialogue.
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