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Post by profh0011 on Dec 8, 2020 22:26:36 GMT -5
You know, I don't even remember what it was that got Kurt Busiek started. I just remember at some point, in a Yahoo Group, he began hurling RUDE comments AT ME in response to every single thing I would post on any topic. I finally quit the group, just to get THE HELL away from him.
About 5 years later, he popped up in a Facebook group I was in, and as soon as he realized I was in the group, picked up right where he left off. He became the very FIRST person I ever "blocked" on FB.
It really made me lose any respect I had for the comics of his I'd read years earlier.
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Post by berkley on Dec 9, 2020 3:48:30 GMT -5
It reminds me of an anecdote Harlan Ellison told once, I forget if it was in an interview or what, about a negative encounter with Frank Sinatra that put him off Sinatra's music/movies/etc ever afterwards.
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Post by Chris on Dec 9, 2020 13:01:18 GMT -5
Maybe I should have used Mark Waid as my example, because i just remembered another story of his that's left me with a bad impression just from hearing about it, not having actually read it: the one where the Elongated Man disguises himself as a dress that Barda is wearing: how anyone ever thought that was a whimsically comical scenario rather than creepy and offensive is beyond me, and that's not modern-day hindsight talking or virtue-signalling: I had the same immediate reaction when I first heard about the story years ago. It was Plastic Man, not Elongated Man, and the scene appeared in a Morrison script, not one of Waid's. But yes, it was a terrible idea that treated sexual assault was as a joke. Cei-U! I summon the poor taste!
You're half-right. It was indeed Plastic Man, but it was in fact written by Waid, not Morrison. Waid wrote a couple of fill-in issues at the time. The issue in question -  The scene in question (part of it) - {Spoiler: Click to show}image  Credits -  |
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 9, 2020 13:10:19 GMT -5
It reminds me of an anecdote Harlan Ellison told once, I forget if it was in an interview or what, about a negative encounter with Frank Sinatra that put him off Sinatra's music/movies/etc ever afterwards. I've heard some fans say they refuse to meet their idols out of fear that if they catch the idol when they're in a bad mood, and react negatively, they will not be able to enjoy the idol's work going forward. To that I say: no one should forget that artists / celebrities, et al., are real people with real, daily emotions they're dealing with, even while attending public events, so if they have an attitude that is less than friendly (or does not match their marketed image), accept that anyone is capable of reacting that way, and its not their entire personality. |
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 9, 2020 16:10:39 GMT -5
They do put a lot of pressure on creative people in modern times to go out and promote, win friends, influence people... I almost feel they should just hire someone to be them so they can focus on doing the creative stuff. Some are really good at it, love traveling, meeting readers, able to work on the road (Dick Giordano worked on the subway a lot he said even when he wasn't traveling), but if it's down to line-ups with stacks of stuff to be signed to flip for profit that seems the worst.
I expect Mark Waid having been quite a fan was meeting some fans on that level and then the fur would fly? I can only imagine meeting someone I felt had 'ruined' a beloved character(s) and telling them what I thought, but I just haven't. I just don't buy them and tend to say what they did never happened. It would kind of have to be someone whose work i do like to have done something. I guess John Byrne was responsible for Supergirl's death indirectly in the mid '80s... but it was the having her body on at least two covers to sell the historic event and it being just one of a bunch of heroine deaths or maiming that irked me. And anyway, after the first couple of the Infantino Daring New Adventures Of Supergirl I had not supported the character (and then they gave her an awful cheerleader type costume which alone would've kept me away). Death might've been the kind thing to do without anyone around really wanting to do a great Supergirl. I also figured, well all the old ones can still be reread, or found anew if I'd never had them.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Dec 9, 2020 21:49:57 GMT -5
You know, I don't even remember what it was that got Kurt Busiek started. I just remember at some point, in a Yahoo Group, he began hurling RUDE comments AT ME in response to every single thing I would post on any topic. I finally quit the group, just to get THE HELL away from him. About 5 years later, he popped up in a Facebook group I was in, and as soon as he realized I was in the group, picked up right where he left off. He became the very FIRST person I ever "blocked" on FB. It really made me lose any respect I had for the comics of his I'd read years earlier. I, sorry you had this experience. I d have to say that this is very different from my own experiences with Kurt. He was a member of a mailing list I was on, then a Yahoo Group, then a Facebook Group, over the course of 20+ years and though he certainly had disagreements with fans from time to time — including me — in my interactions he was always polite and professional, and in the groups I was in, I never saw him act otherwise with the other members. Exasperation with fan obstinacy was about the worst I saw from him personally. |
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 9, 2020 22:05:43 GMT -5
Funny someone should mention Harlan Ellison...
Just the other day, I heard a story I'd never heard all the details before. While he was working on "VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA", one day a network censor came into his office and was re-writing HIS script right in front of him. Incensed, he got up, jumped over his desk, knocked the censor backwards into a wall, where a large model of the Seaview hung. The model fell, hit the censor, breaking one of his bones... All I could think of was, gee, I guess that must be why Ellison NEVER wrote for "VOYAGE" again after that.
I have the Season 1 DVD box sets on order right now! The local Philadelphia UHF station, in the early 70s, STOPPED running Season 1 because of the idiotic idea that people didn't want to watch BLACK AND WHITE shows anymore. (I sure as hell did. The early episodes of any given series tended to always be the BEST-written.)
2 years later, Ellison submitted a 2-part "STAR TREK" script... apparently, without a real grasp or understanding of the show as it existed then. The entire first half was cut, and much of the 2nd half was drastically re-written. As it happens, his unused original script AND the one used to shoot the episode BOTH won prestigious Science-Fiction awards! But that wasn't enough for him. He expended a lot of energy BAD-mouthing the series and may well have been responsible for the show suddenly no longer having scripts from established science-fiction writers. This continued with "NEXT GENERATION", where as far as I know, NOT ONE established SF writer ever worked on the show. That's pretty damned obsessive and mean-spirited.
My own favorite script from him was on the 8th season of "THE TWILIGHT ZONE" (the 3rd one of the 80s revival, the one made direct to syndication). "Crazy As A Soup Sandwich" was a COMEDY that looked like how the Adam West "BATMAN" should have looked, and starred Tony Franciosa. I loved it. I wish Ellison had written a LOT more comedies-- he clearly had a real knack for them!
I believe that episode was the only "TZ" episode ever adapted into a comic-book. It had art by Neal Adams, and an outragiously-bizarre cover painting by Bill Sienkiewicz!
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 9, 2020 22:10:50 GMT -5
My best friend in Georgia related the story of the one time he SAW Ellison in person, at a convention. He and a couple friends walked into a panel discussion LATE, and with no empty seats, were standing at the back. Noticing them, Ellison YELLED out, "HEY-- GET AWAY from those FIRE EXITS!" He then told them to come right up front and sit on the floor directly in front of where he was speaking. Cool!
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Post by chadwilliam on Dec 9, 2020 22:57:57 GMT -5
It reminds me of an anecdote Harlan Ellison told once, I forget if it was in an interview or what, about a negative encounter with Frank Sinatra that put him off Sinatra's music/movies/etc ever afterwards. There was a famous article by Gay Talese published in Esquire which described an encounter between the two and would certainly explain why Ellison wouldn't like Sinatra, but I don't know enough about his feelings before that event to know if he was ever a fan. Strange that you should bring Ellison up since he did once say... well, I can't remember it exactly, but the sentiment was "don't hold a writer's personal beliefs against their work since when they're writing, that's them at their purest, most decent, and their best". It's something I remind myself of from time to time since I think there's something to be said for the comment, but that, of course, only goes so far. I mean, I certainly couldn't set aside my hatred of Roman Polanski just because he knew which way to point a camera, but Ellison's opinion has merit in my opinion. Just hard to know how much. |
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 9, 2020 23:56:05 GMT -5
I'm remembering something about Lou Reed having some sort of bad reputation with music fans or the music press (not much difference usually) and someone commented 'do these people even know anybody from New York?' It explained everything to me and possibly very little to the people who found him standoffish or rude. Lou Reed should've written a Batman or Spider-Man comic, that would have a cover by Andy Warhol and be drawn by John Holmstrom. I would've bought at least one.  I'm glad Ellison wrote those two Avengers-Hulk issues! |
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Post by berkley on Dec 10, 2020 4:23:51 GMT -5
I don't know if he read comics at all or not, but I can't see Reed doing a popular superhero like Spider-Man, or perhaps not any superhero at all. I do remember him saying somewhere that he was a fan of Andrew Vacchs's neo-hard-boiled novels, mostly based in NYC, so perhaps he might have liked Frank Miller's Sin City, or something like that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 8:55:41 GMT -5
I don't know if he read comics at all or not, but I can't see Reed doing a popular superhero like Spider-Man, or perhaps not any superhero at all. I do remember him saying somewhere that he was a fan of Andrew Vacchs's neo-hard-boiled novels, mostly based in NYC, so perhaps he might have liked Frank Miller's Sin City, or something like that. Well Vacchs did write some Batman so there's that.  and adapted into comics  -M |
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Post by MDG on Dec 10, 2020 9:45:36 GMT -5
... Strange that you should bring Ellison up since he did once say... well, I can't remember it exactly, but the sentiment was "don't hold a writer's personal beliefs against their work since when they're writing, that's them at their purest, most decent, and their best". ... Apart from A Boy and his Dog, I've never been able to get into Ellison or understand why some people hold him so highly. In the couple of story collections of his I've read, he preceded each story with an explanation of how/why he wrote it, which only made them seem to come up short of his intent (my opinion).
I always felt he put more effort into courting controversy and pissing people off than writing.
EDIT: What can people point me to that would change my mind?
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 10, 2020 10:34:37 GMT -5
What can people point me to that would change my mind? No idea. Most of his stuff, I just find depressing.
Dirty dark secret (heeheehee): The last 3 times I watched "STAR TREK" (the real one, 1966-69), I began skipping certain episodes I'd seen too many times, or just plain DIDN'T LIKE AT ALL. Each run, I'd skip more episodes. As a result, each run, I was enjoying MORE!
One of the episodes I'd swore I'd never watch again, just happens to be the ONE episode many fans regard as "THE BEST EVER!!!!!!!!!". Uh huh. The One Ellison wrote.
I did quote a line from it in one of my own stories. But in the context of my story, the line was not depressing... but HILARIOUS.
My introduction to Ellison was the night we switched off "THE JACKIE GLEASON SHOW" halfway thru... and ran across the 2nd half of "Demon With A Glass Hand". It's one of 3 separate episodes of "THE OUTER LIMITS" that are believed to have been inspirations for "THE TERMINATOR". The others being "Soldier" and "The Man Who Was Never Born"-- the latter, it's been pointed out, had far more in common with the James Cameron film than the other two. But writer Anthony Lawrence did NOT see fit to sue over it.
It took me until the mid-80s before I finally managed to see "...Glass Hand" from the beginning, and, DAMN, it really is one of the best episodes. It actually starts mid-way into the story... and the ending cuts off with the main character knowing he has to wait 1,000 years before the resolution of the problem. Sheesh. I still don't have a copy of it in my collection, so I've really only seen the whole thing once. But in the mid-80s, DC did a graphic novel adapted from Ellison's script, illustrated by Marshall Rogers. My comics-shop guy said it was DC's #1 best-selling graphic novel, on the basis of Ellison. I told him, "B***S***!" It's the #1 best-seller because it has not 1, but 3 separate built-in audiences:
1 - Harlan Ellison fans 2 - Marshall Rogers fans 3 - THE OUTER LIMITS fans
Some people are too narrow-minded to have intelliegent conversations with...
As for the other one: Watch here! You won't regret it. This is my #1 FAVORITE episode of "THE TWILIGHT ZONE".
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 10, 2020 11:02:03 GMT -5
I always felt he put more effort into courting controversy and pissing people off than writing. From time to time, he did invest in being the resident iconoclast of whatever environment he found himself in. About his work being held in high regard, part of it had to do with his employing a more open, honest style of character creation, where some would behave in ways closer to real people. His work adapted for TV is well known, although the landmark "The City on the Edge of Forever" did go through a substantial rewrite, which--ironically enough considering Elison's complains about the rewrites--was the version which won the 1968 Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation. |
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