|
|
Post by james on Feb 11, 2022 14:07:15 GMT -5
I’m working on my X-MEN collection and I got a nice copy of 140 which is one of my all time favorite issues. I read it of course because I do not believe in just putting it on the shelf to gather dust. With that said I remember vaguely, reading how Byrne’s main contention was how Colossus’s struggle with the root on page 1. Now the more I look at this page and read Colossus’s words I don’t get it. He did pull it out pretty quickly. Sounds like and excuse for Byrne to get off the book.
|
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Feb 11, 2022 15:32:26 GMT -5
I’m working on my X-MEN collection and I got a nice copy of 140 which is one of my all time favorite issues. I read it of course because I do not believe in just putting it on the shelf to gather dust. With that said I remember vaguely, reading how Byrne’s main contention was how Colossus’s struggle with the root on page 1. Now the more I look at this page and read Colossus’s words I don’t get it. He did pull it out pretty quickly. Sounds like and excuse for Byrne to get off the book. Byrne and Claremont had been at odds for some time and there were times where one got his way, more than the other, based on who the editor was. Roger Stern was editor while the book was at the height of Byrne's run on it and they were old friends from Charlton and Byrne tended to get his way, with Stern. Then, Stern left the book and Jim Salicrup, who was Stern's assistant, took over for a few issues, before Weezie came onto the book. She was more in tune with Claremont's ideas and Byrne wasn't getting his way anymore and left just a few issues after Weezy began her tenure. So, no, an argument over one page wasn't why he quit; he just couldn't get his way any longer and took his ball and went home. |
|
|
|
Post by james on Feb 11, 2022 16:21:04 GMT -5
I’m working on my X-MEN collection and I got a nice copy of 140 which is one of my all time favorite issues. I read it of course because I do not believe in just putting it on the shelf to gather dust. With that said I remember vaguely, reading how Byrne’s main contention was how Colossus’s struggle with the root on page 1. Now the more I look at this page and read Colossus’s words I don’t get it. He did pull it out pretty quickly. Sounds like and excuse for Byrne to get off the book. Byrne and Claremont had been at odds for some time and there were times where one got his way, more than the other, based on who the editor was. Roger Stern was editor while the book was at the height of Byrne's run on it and they were old friends from Charlton and Byrne tended to get his way, with Stern. Then, Stern left the book and Jim Salicrup, who was Stern's assistant, took over for a few issues, before Weezie came onto the book. She was more in tune with Claremont's ideas and Byrne wasn't getting his way anymore and left just a few issues after Weezy began her tenure. So, no, an argument over one page wasn't why he quit; he just couldn't get his way any longer and took his ball and went home. Byrne getting his way under Stern really produced a classic run. I’d love to know what that consisted of under Stern |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Feb 11, 2022 17:35:39 GMT -5
Byrne and Claremont had been at odds for some time and there were times where one got his way, more than the other, based on who the editor was. Roger Stern was editor while the book was at the height of Byrne's run on it and they were old friends from Charlton and Byrne tended to get his way, with Stern. Then, Stern left the book and Jim Salicrup, who was Stern's assistant, took over for a few issues, before Weezie came onto the book. She was more in tune with Claremont's ideas and Byrne wasn't getting his way anymore and left just a few issues after Weezy began her tenure. So, no, an argument over one page wasn't why he quit; he just couldn't get his way any longer and took his ball and went home. Byrne getting his way under Stern really produced a classic run. I’d love to know what that consisted of under Stern Stern is listed as editor, beginning with issue #113, where the X-Men escape from Magneto's Antarctic volcanic lair and get split up, with each group thinking the other is dead. Jean returns to the US and the others end up in the Savage Land. Stern is editor through the stories in the Savage Land, with Sauron, their clash with Alpha Flight, in Canada, the battle with Arcade, the fight with Proteus, in Scotland (where Jean had been hanging out and we get the prologue to the Dark Phoenix stuff) and ends with issue 131, where Kitty Pryde and Dazzler help free the X-Men from the White Queen, with the help of Scott and the others. Jim Salicrup is editor from #132 to 136, with the Dark Phoenix storyline in high gear, and then he an Louise Simonson co-edit #137. where Jean "dies." Louise is the sole editor with the next issue, where Cyclops leaves and we get the history of the team. She continues on from there. Byrne leaves just a few issues later. According to accounts, Byrne and Claremont clashed from time to time and Byrne tended to get his way, more, under Stern. Byrne supposedly tried it with Louise and she wasn't ready to steamroll Claremont and Byrne quit. Now, he had also been on the book for quite a while and might have been a bit burnt out, to add to things It is hard to say what was Byrne's idea and what was Claremont's and what was a synthesis, as they will argue opposite cases and the truth is probably a bit of both of their ideas; but, Byrne basically wanted full control over his stories, which follows through with the bulk of his work after, writing and drawing or writing his own stories. Quite frankly, I thought his stuff was better working with Claremont and Stern, though I haven't read his entire FF run to really judge that. Claremont was also at his best working with Byrne. I kind of feel like they were much like Sting and Stewart Copeland, of the Police, who were at odds with each other for much of the life of the band. Apart from the Equalizer, I never cared much for Copeland's solo music, nor Sting's, compared to The Police. I always felt their antagonism tended to cancel out their worst individual tendencies and create a better work, as a unit. |
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Feb 11, 2022 18:54:59 GMT -5
It does seem frivolous if looked at on its own but I can see how it would have been frustrating if the situation had gone on for some time. It was unfortunate loss for the series, but I don't blame him.
|
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Feb 11, 2022 19:07:20 GMT -5
I’m working on my X-MEN collection and I got a nice copy of 140 which is one of my all time favorite issues. I read it of course because I do not believe in just putting it on the shelf to gather dust. With that said I remember vaguely, reading how Byrne’s main contention was how Colossus’s struggle with the root on page 1. Now the more I look at this page and read Colossus’s words I don’t get it. He did pull it out pretty quickly. Sounds like and excuse for Byrne to get off the book. I re-read the copy and although Colossus, according to the art, easily tears off the root of the tree, from the text it seems that it is a non-trivial operation ("By Lenin, either my heart will burst and my steel body crack..."). I vaguely remember Byrne complaining somewhere that the text in this particular scene didn't fit his art (as Claremont and Byrne at the time used the classic Marvel method and the dialogues were written after the drawings). But it seems to me that he cited it as an example of the various things he disagreed with at the time, not the only reason for his departure. |
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Feb 11, 2022 19:11:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Feb 12, 2022 0:23:56 GMT -5
Byrne getting his way under Stern really produced a classic run. I’d love to know what that consisted of under Stern Stern is listed as editor, beginning with issue #113, where the X-Men escape from Magneto's Antarctic volcanic lair and get split up, with each group thinking the other is dead. Jean returns to the US and the others end up in the Savage Land. Stern is editor through the stories in the Savage Land, with Sauron, their clash with Alpha Flight, in Canada, the battle with Arcade, the fight with Proteus, in Scotland (where Jean had been hanging out and we get the prologue to the Dark Phoenix stuff) and ends with issue 131, where Kitty Pryde and Dazzler help free the X-Men from the White Queen, with the help of Scott and the others. Jim Salicrup is editor from #132 to 136, with the Dark Phoenix storyline in high gear, and then he an Louise Simonson co-edit #137. where Jean "dies." Louise is the sole editor with the next issue, where Cyclops leaves and we get the history of the team. She continues on from there. Byrne leaves just a few issues later. According to accounts, Byrne and Claremont clashed from time to time and Byrne tended to get his way, more, under Stern. Byrne supposedly tried it with Louise and she wasn't ready to steamroll Claremont and Byrne quit. Now, he had also been on the book for quite a while and might have been a bit burnt out, to add to things It is hard to say what was Byrne's idea and what was Claremont's and what was a synthesis, as they will argue opposite cases and the truth is probably a bit of both of their ideas; but, Byrne basically wanted full control over his stories, which follows through with the bulk of his work after, writing and drawing or writing his own stories. Quite frankly, I thought his stuff was better working with Claremont and Stern, though I haven't read his entire FF run to really judge that. Claremont was also at his best working with Byrne. I kind of feel like they were much like Sting and Stewart Copeland, of the Police, who were at odds with each other for much of the life of the band. Apart from the Equalizer, I never cared much for Copeland's solo music, nor Sting's, compared to The Police. I always felt their antagonism tended to cancel out their worst individual tendencies and create a better work, as a unit. I've long thought that idea of the collaboration canceling out their worst individual tendencies applied to Claremont and Byrne. They can really go overboard if not reigned in. Like sometimes, Claremont played favorite with his ensemble and it didn't work as well as he probably thought it did. And Byrne's solo writing can have amateur know-it-all guy vibes. |
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Feb 12, 2022 0:29:06 GMT -5
I re-read #140 (with Colossus and the stump) a few months back and remember think it was odd that he struggled. The Cyclops Savage Land scene, which I recall being driven by dialogue suggesting Scott strangely didn't feel the sense of loss he expected, always read strangely to me. I had mixed feelings about it, because I did feel it could work in a sense at illustrating that traumatic evidence do strange things in messing with people's minds. But it did seem like an odd writing choice, so I wasn't entirely sure why Claremont went in that direction. |
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Feb 12, 2022 3:48:42 GMT -5
I re-read #140 (with Colossus and the stump) a few months back and remember think it was odd that he struggled. The Cyclops Savage Land scene, which I recall being driven by dialogue suggesting Scott strangely didn't feel the sense of loss he expected, always read strangely to me. I had mixed feelings about it, because I did feel it could work in a sense at illustrating that traumatic evidence do strange things in messing with people's minds. But it did seem like an odd writing choice, so I wasn't entirely sure why Claremont went in that direction. I think it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. And I remember that for a time Claremont had this strange quirk for making the most mundane things "epic". It felt odd sometimes (like, well, in this case). |
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Feb 12, 2022 18:13:03 GMT -5
When I noticed that Jim Salicrup left X-MEN after only a short time, and that short time included Jim Shooter sticking his nose in and DERAILING a long-planned finale to a storyline, I felt it couldn't be a coincidence. I just wondered if Shooter more or less FIRED Salicrup for what he saw as editorial incompetence, or if Salicrup left the book because Shooter had interfered where it wasn't called for.
The strangest thing was a few years ago when I re-read "The Dark Phoenix Saga" in a reprint collection. For decades, this has been considered the all-time high-point of the series. And I wound up HATING every single aspect of it.
If and when I get around to clearing out hige swaths of my comics collection that I never intend to read ever again... I'm pretty sure every single X-MEN comic after Dave Cockrum's 1st run will be among those I ditch. That series has always rubbed me the wrong way. Dave was the ONLY reason I started reading the revival in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Post by james on Feb 12, 2022 18:34:14 GMT -5
When I noticed that Jim Salicrup left X-MEN after only a short time, and that short time included Jim Shooter sticking his nose in and DERAILING a long-planned finale to a storyline, I felt it couldn't be a coincidence. I just wondered if Shooter more or less FIRED Salicrup for what he saw as editorial incompetence, or if Salicrup left the book because Shooter had interfered where it wasn't called for. The strangest thing was a few years ago when I re-read " The Dark Phoenix Saga" in a reprint collection. For decades, this has been considered the all-time high-point of the series. And I wound up HATING every single aspect of it. If and when I get around to clearing out hige swaths of my comics collection that I never intend to read ever again... I'm pretty sure every single X-MEN comic after Dave Cockrum's 1st run will be among those I ditch. That series has always rubbed me the wrong way. Dave was the ONLY reason I started reading the revival in the first place. Wow! Don’t hold back tell us how you really feel. I personally loved and still love 94-200. But I will say Claremont’s run after 200 became tedious for me |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Feb 12, 2022 19:11:23 GMT -5
I'm good through #175, though there are some hiccups in there.
As much as I criticize Shooter as EIC, I have to agree with him on Phoenix. Having her de-powered to Marvel Girl levels seems like it would have been whitewashing the destruction of an entire system. I always felt her death was justified and earned, and it allowed the team to evolve, without godlike powers around. That's why I hated when they undid all of that. It just turned the clock back on everything and not for the better.
|
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Feb 12, 2022 19:12:58 GMT -5
I'm good through #175, though there are some hiccups in there. As much as I criticize Shooter as EIC, I have to agree with him on Phoenix. Having her de-powered to Marvel Girl levels seems like it would have been whitewashing the destruction of an entire system. I always felt her death was justified and earned, and it allowed the team to evolve, without godlike powers around. That's why I hated when they undid all of that. It just turned the clock back on everything and not for the better. Agreed.
It was hit and miss after #175.
|
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Feb 12, 2022 19:15:34 GMT -5
When I noticed that Jim Salicrup left X-MEN after only a short time, and that short time included Jim Shooter sticking his nose in and DERAILING a long-planned finale to a storyline, I felt it couldn't be a coincidence. I just wondered if Shooter more or less FIRED Salicrup for what he saw as editorial incompetence, or if Salicrup left the book because Shooter had interfered where it wasn't called for. The strangest thing was a few years ago when I re-read " The Dark Phoenix Saga" in a reprint collection. For decades, this has been considered the all-time high-point of the series. And I wound up HATING every single aspect of it. If and when I get around to clearing out hige swaths of my comics collection that I never intend to read ever again... I'm pretty sure every single X-MEN comic after Dave Cockrum's 1st run will be among those I ditch. That series has always rubbed me the wrong way. Dave was the ONLY reason I started reading the revival in the first place. I had all the comics from the DF saga, but I was just buying It because it was popular at the time. I ended up selling them in the early 2000's when I was tight for money. I never really connected with the X-men team. I few years back I bought some collected versions of the New X-men run. I plan to re-read them to see if maybe I enjoy them now. |
|
