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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2022 12:13:18 GMT -5
While my all-time favorite Marvel runs are classic Lee/Ditko Spidey and Lee/Kirby/Sinnott FF, it is hard for me to pick one particular issue or story arc as best from those even though some are more special to me than others. However, the Kree-Skrull War jumped out at me as a great choice, I still remember discovering it by way of these reprint issues in 1983 and totally being smitten:   I think this about hit perfection for me, it was still close enough to 60's era Marvel where you had a lot of the classic characters and settings from the stories that preceded it. But the Neal Adams art in particular, the "epic" ambitions of the storyline, it was just sensational to me and still is. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 23, 2022 12:58:55 GMT -5
I don'y know about "best" but, for me, the story arc that truly established the Marvel approach to super-heroes would be Avengers #2-4, Fantastic Four #25-26, and back to Avengers #5 by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. As I noted in my long-ago Avengers history for Alter Ego: "This six-part story cycle epitomizes the sprawling multi-title action and operatic bombast of the Lee/Kirby school of super-heroics. The plot feels organic and spontaneous, driven by the larger-than-life emotions of its characters. The art is stark and dramatic. The inkers on these issues, Paul Reinman (#2-3, 5) and George Roussos (#4, FF #25-26, credited in all as “Geo. Bell”), capture the raw power of Jack Kirby's pencils in a way more polished embellishers like Dick Ayers (#1, 8) or Chic Stone (#6-7), do not. It is the right look for this story." Cei-U! Nuff said! I would include Avengers #1, exclude #5, and this storyline (which I call “Get the Hulk!”) would be in second place for me, after the first Spider-Man annual. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 23, 2022 13:54:14 GMT -5
Avenger #5 and #58 are the best ones, before the arrival of Neal Adams. My 2c.
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 23, 2022 14:31:25 GMT -5
I don'y know about "best" but, for me, the story arc that truly established the Marvel approach to super-heroes would be Avengers #2-4, Fantastic Four #25-26, and back to Avengers #5 by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. As I noted in my long-ago Avengers history for Alter Ego: "This six-part story cycle epitomizes the sprawling multi-title action and operatic bombast of the Lee/Kirby school of super-heroics. The plot feels organic and spontaneous, driven by the larger-than-life emotions of its characters. The art is stark and dramatic. The inkers on these issues, Paul Reinman (#2-3, 5) and George Roussos (#4, FF #25-26, credited in all as “Geo. Bell”), capture the raw power of Jack Kirby's pencils in a way more polished embellishers like Dick Ayers (#1, 8) or Chic Stone (#6-7), do not. It is the right look for this story." Cei-U! Nuff said! Paul Reinman was absolutely Kirby's worse inker. Roussos inking was often bad, but that was mainly due to the very rushed schedule. He was many times given had a very small percent of the time given to inkers. But even when he did have the time, the results were not good by Kirby inkers standards. He was a much better colorist. No raw power of Kirby pencils here, just bad inking.  |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 23, 2022 15:26:54 GMT -5
Sounds like you would rather go with "Another comic by someone(s) above". If that's the case, you can change that while the poll is open. It's fine as is, and that's why I worked with your list and picked "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" / "The Goblin's Last Stand". |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 23, 2022 15:33:38 GMT -5
Paul Reinman was absolutely Kirby's worse inker. One of many, who either took all of the life out of the pencils (e.g., Reinman) or did not dare rock the Kirby boat (Royer comes to mind) to do what a great inker--such as Syd Shores--was hired to do. |
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 23, 2022 15:53:51 GMT -5
I think you are very wrong about Royer. He actually looks closest to Kirby inking himself. He had a wonderfully lush brush line that was a great compliment to Kirby's pencils. Yes, he was very faithful to the pencils, but he made them refined and beautiful. A look, through the book Kirby Pencils and Inks shows the importance of Royer's work. aeindex.org/reviews/jack-kirby-pencils-and-inks-artisan-edition/ |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 24, 2022 4:43:52 GMT -5
I'm okay with Royer's inks (I must be, given my collection) but I'd hardly consider him Kirby's best. That would be either Wally Wood or Bill Everett (Frank Giacoia, Syd Shores, Joe Sinnott and Dick Ayers are also strong contenders). Royer is *too* faithful to the pencil art. Jack's strength was in his storytelling, not the polish of his finishes. I think (as Stan Lee apparently thought) that Kirby's pencils worked best when paired with a stylistically strong inkslinger.
Cei-U!
I summon my two cents' worth of opinion!
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,408
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Post by shaxper on Oct 24, 2022 6:25:05 GMT -5
As much as any question like this is doomed to be overpowered with "none of the above"s, this is a very GOOD list. My problem is that my favorite Marvel works are ones that spun out of two of the choices on this list, and not the two choices themselves.
I love how Kirby and Lee retold/revised the Galactus Trilogy in the Fireside graphic novel, where they were not limited by page count nor the need to maintain a status quo for the characters involved. It's really the best Elseworlds story ever told, only two decades early and at the wrong publisher.
The X-men are my favorite mainstream heroes of all time, but where I truly begin to love them is right after the Dark Phoenix Saga. The loss of Jean Grey is what finally truly bonds them as a costumed family.
But if I'm limiting myself to the options provided, it's The Galactus Trilogy.
I'd also strongly recommend the Dormamu/HYDRA storylines that ran concurrently for Dr. Strange and Nick Fury in Strange Tales. I'm not sure I've ever turned pages faster and grabbed for the next issue more greedily.
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Post by Graphic Autist on Oct 24, 2022 8:46:11 GMT -5
I picked the Dark Phoenix story. I loved that when I first read it. I still do.
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Post by MDG on Oct 24, 2022 9:16:25 GMT -5
I'm okay with Royer's inks (I must be, given my collection) but I'd hardly consider him Kirby's best. That would be either Wally Wood or Bill Everett (Frank Giacoia, Syd Shores, Joe Sinnott and Dick Ayers are also strong contenders). Royer is *too* faithful to the pencil art. Jack's strength was in his storytelling, not the polish of his finishes. I think (as Stan Lee apparently thought) that Kirby's pencils worked best when paired with a stylistically strong inkslinger. Cei-U! I summon my two cents' worth of opinion! I like Royer on Kirby now more than I used to, but still feel, like you, he was too reluctant to change anything. Sinnott will probably remain my favorite, though Shores and (sometimes) Giacoia are good.
Wood's inks are aesthetically gorgeous, but take something away. The best I can say about Ayers is he didn;t screw things up.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 24, 2022 9:43:56 GMT -5
I'm okay with Royer's inks (I must be, given my collection) but I'd hardly consider him Kirby's best. That would be either Wally Wood or Bill Everett (Frank Giacoia, Syd Shores, Joe Sinnott and Dick Ayers are also strong contenders). Royer is *too* faithful to the pencil art. Jack's strength was in his storytelling, not the polish of his finishes. I think (as Stan Lee apparently thought) that Kirby's pencils worked best when paired with a stylistically strong inkslinger. Cei-U! I summon my two cents' worth of opinion! I like Royer on Kirby now more than I used to, but still feel, like you, he was too reluctant to change anything. Sinnott will probably remain my favorite, though Shores and (sometimes) Giacoia are good.
Wood's inks are aesthetically gorgeous, but take something away. The best I can say about Ayers is he didn;t screw things up.
I feel that Ayers gave Kirby's pencils weight, depth, and clarity (clarity is where I think Royer sometimes comes up short). They didn't always mesh well, but when they did--like on the first Fantastic Four Annual--the result was a thing of joy.
Cei-U! I summon the dynamic duo!
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 24, 2022 12:00:49 GMT -5
I picked the Dark Phoenix story. I loved that when I first read it. I still do. You and others, it's ahead ATM.
Even though it's not my pick, it's the run I've spent more $ in.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 24, 2022 12:57:25 GMT -5
I love how Kirby and Lee retold/revised the Galactus Trilogy in the Fireside graphic novel, where they were not limited by page count nor the need to maintain a status quo for the characters involved. It's really the best Elseworlds story ever told, only two decades early and at the wrong publisher. That and the 2001 Treasury Edition are two Kirby books that I'd love to see reprinted, but whose rights are probably tied up by red tape in the dreaded realm of legal limbo. Simon and Schuster is owned by Paramount and MGM by Amazon, and the Silver Surfer is a Disney character. Doctor Doom would say "BAH!"  |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 24, 2022 13:01:04 GMT -5
Royer is *too* faithful to the pencil art. Jack's strength was in his storytelling, not the polish of his finishes. I think (as Stan Lee apparently thought) that Kirby's pencils worked best when paired with a stylistically strong inkslinger. I agree; Kirby always needed strong inkers to give his work more of a softer, "realistic" look (improving it) as opposed to following Kirby's harder-edged tendencies. |
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