Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Confessor on Feb 15, 2023 9:45:44 GMT -5
I thought C&D did become big back in the day. They went on to be regular fixtures in PPTSS and had multiple ongoing series. Well, yes...they did have a two or maybe three limited series, but I'm not sure I'd exactly call them "big" back then. They had a few appearances in PP:TSSM, sure, but were probably in less than 10 issues all told. Again, not sure that really counts as being "big"? Spider-Man is big. Captain America is big. The X-Men were big. C&D were C-listers at best, I'd say. To me back in the mid-80s, they felt like cult characters, even when they got their own mini-series. If anything, they're almost certainly bigger and better known generally nowadays, what with their TV series, than they ever were back in the 80s and 90s. But even then, how popular was the C&D show outside of completist Marvel Cinematic Universe fans? (I ask this out of genuine ignorance, because I really don't follow the MCU). But regardless, the fact that such cool, interesting characters have always struggled to carry an on-going book is proof a-plenty that they're really not that big or popular. I feel like Mantlo was the only one who really understood the characters, afterwards they kind of floundered I agree 100%.
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Post by MDG on Feb 15, 2023 9:59:15 GMT -5
Has Adam Strange soared quite as high as he may have deserved to? I know he’s had various titles, a trade, etc. Just feel like he could be used more. Adam Strange was an almost perfect character for the time he was created: the scientific man of action who used hs brains to defeat menaces. But there's not too much more there.
Moore's take in Swamp Thing made perfect sense to me.
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 15, 2023 11:42:19 GMT -5
There was a hysterically funny parody of Cloak & Dagger somewhere online a few years ago but I can't find it now. Does anyone else remember it?
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 15, 2023 12:01:57 GMT -5
Brother Power, the Geek.
Strangled in the crib.
That third and final issue was weeks ahead of its time. I've got to reread it once more before I put it up for auction.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2023 12:29:32 GMT -5
Adam Strange was used well by James Robinson (in Starman) and pretty well in his JLA appearances, but both suggest he made a better guest star than lead, by that stage. I do think that Robinson showed how to best use him, when he turns up to aid Opal City, in Grand Guignol. Strange makes for a good troubleshooter, a specialist who gets called in because of a puzzle, rather than a policeman or guardian. The mini-series, with Richard brunning and the Kubert brothers really took the wrong approach, by trying to do the "grim & gritty" template with him. It didn't work and Robinson kind of retconned it away, with a quick exchange of dialogue (suggesting that Sardath was ill, but has recovered). Also, you need swashbuckling action for Adam, as he is a product of the whole space opera genre, aping both Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon (if you are going to steal, steal as much as you can!). Robinson kept that swashbuckling style.
Speaking of swashbucklers, I loved Paladin, in his debut, in Daredevil and wanted to see more of him; but, whenever he did turn up, it seemed like the writers involved never quite saw the full potential that I did. The artists also seemed to be hindered by the costume. I wasn't keen on the color scheme, but, thought that Carmine Infantio's basic design was sound, though it could use a bit of tweaking. The redesign they did took away the cape, but also took away much of the personality.
Along similar lines, I thought the John Ostrander & Doug Rice Manhunter should have been a tremendously exciting series and it started out that way, then seemed to quickly lose what made it so great, in the subsequent issues. I've talked with Doug Rice, on a couple of occasions, about the series and he said that Ostrander originally presented the idea of an action-adventure series, where Manhunter acted as a super-villain bounty hunter and you got that in those first 4 issues, as he takes down Penguin and Captain Cold, then faces Dumas, who wants his mask as a trophy. That had a ton of action and intrigue and Rice got to flex his love of Japanese tokusatsu series (special effects series, or hero series, like Kamen Rider, Ultraman, and the Super Sentai series, which were used to create the Power Rangers). He said that, then, the scripts spent more time with Mark Shaw and his extended family, with scenes of them talking, rather than the action pieces they had intended. After a while, the drama and soap opera kind of overshadowed the action and Rice left the series. They also got sidelined by the Invasion event. Grant Miehn took over as artist, but the series seemed lost, until Ostrander decided to revive Dumas, but it felt less. That could have been a really great and fun romp, with Manhunter chasing after gimmick villains and then some of the more powerful ones, like a Grodd or Solomon Grundy. There was also supposed to be a connection to the Suicide Squad, as the people he captured would find themselves filtered onto the team; but, it never exactly worked out that way.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Feb 15, 2023 12:39:03 GMT -5
Brother Power, the Geek. Strangled in the crib. That third and final issue was weeks ahead of its time. I've got to reread it once more before I put it up for auction. I have read a rumor that Joe Simon's plan was for Brother Power to be elected President. When it was cancelled, that story transferred to Prez. Just imagine ...
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 15, 2023 13:28:56 GMT -5
I know this is a minority opinion, but I really liked the Gibbon when he was introduced and wanted to see him succeed in his initial desire to be a hero.
I wasn't expecting him to be "big", but they wasted the potential that I thought he had.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2023 13:43:25 GMT -5
Another one: Angel and the Ape. Yes, there’s been numerous appearances, but are they truly big? Feels like they, much like my other choices, should have soared higher.
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Post by DubipR on Feb 15, 2023 14:47:23 GMT -5
Another one: Angel and the Ape. Yes, there’s been numerous appearances, but are they truly big? Feels like they, much like my other choices, should have soared higher. Chaykin perfected them in his Vertigo mini. It was campy and hard boiled all in one. I did appreciate that Sam showed up in The Rogues mini that came out last year. Highly recommended.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Confessor on Feb 15, 2023 19:48:36 GMT -5
Another one: Angel and the Ape. Yes, there’s been numerous appearances, but are they truly big? Feels like they, much like my other choices, should have soared higher. I'm not sure that Angel & the Ape ever really had the potential to be big comic book stars, but regardless of that I love their comics. Especially the 60s issues, as drawn by the brilliant Bob Oksner (and usually inked by Wally Wood). They are such a joy to read. The late '80s mini-series was also kinda fun. Another one: Angel and the Ape. Yes, there’s been numerous appearances, but are they truly big? Feels like they, much like my other choices, should have soared higher. Chaykin perfected them in his Vertigo mini. It was campy and hard boiled all in one. I did appreciate that Sam showed up in The Rogues mini that came out last year. Highly recommended. I've never read the Vertigo re-boot. I've heard bad things about it though from a couple of people, like it changed the characterisation of Sam Simeon and Angel O'Day and had a much more suggestively adult vibe. So, it's interesting to hear you say that you think it's the best version of the team. Maybe I should check it out.
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Post by DubipR on Feb 15, 2023 20:28:58 GMT -5
Another one: Angel and the Ape. Yes, there’s been numerous appearances, but are they truly big? Feels like they, much like my other choices, should have soared higher. Chaykin perfected them in his Vertigo mini. It was campy and hard boiled all in one. I did appreciate that Sam showed up in The Rogues mini that came out last year. Highly recommended. I've never read the Vertigo re-boot. I've heard bad things about it though from a couple of people, like it changed the characterisation of Sam Simeon and Angel O'Day and had a much more suggestively adult vibe. So, it's interesting to hear you say that you think it's the best version of the team. Maybe I should check it out. You have to take it with the Chaykin dark humor and cynicism, mixed in with the Vertigo format of adultness.
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Post by MDG on Feb 15, 2023 21:40:36 GMT -5
If we're talking Angel and Ape vintage, what about....
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2023 23:15:19 GMT -5
If we're talking Angel and Ape vintage, what about.... I don't know, it's kind of hard to judge.............what am I supposed to be seeing......'cause I see blank space and the quote box just shows a broken image link avatar.
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 15, 2023 23:26:28 GMT -5
If we're talking Angel and Ape vintage, what about.... I don't know, it's kind of hard to judge.............what am I supposed to be seeing......'cause I see blank space and the quote box just shows a broken image link avatar. It's Showcase #76, the first appearance of Bat Lash.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 16, 2023 2:00:21 GMT -5
I don't know, it's kind of hard to judge.............what am I supposed to be seeing......'cause I see blank space and the quote box just shows a broken image link avatar. It's Showcase #76, the first appearance of Bat Lash. Well, obviously, it was the name....sounds like a brand of mascara!
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