shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Oct 1, 2023 21:02:16 GMT -5
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 2, 2023 6:41:29 GMT -5
I'm so glad that sound effect didn't get cut.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 2, 2023 6:50:22 GMT -5
Oh man, I disagree heartily; Man-Bat is way cooler than Morbius.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Oct 2, 2023 7:00:02 GMT -5
Oh man, I disagree heartily; Man-Bat is way cooler than Morbius. I've read very little Morbius, but being a fan of Batman and Batman Family has forced me to read a lot of Man-Bat. That's been enough to make me like Morbius better 😂 |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 2, 2023 13:05:29 GMT -5
Reaction videos being a thing on Youtube, here's my reaction post to the podcast!  *** Great chemistry, guys. It would be fun to hear you talk about just anything, I'm sure. *** "If you like Kane more than Abel, which I do..." Gil beats Jack any day in my book, but... OOPS! I totally misunderstood what you meant!  *** Dracula in X-Men: I'm with George on this one, but in a far less sanguine manner! I hated that Storm was once again brought under the thumb of a powerful bad guy who wants to control her "body and soul", and I hated the red-shirting of Rachel Van Helsing even more. Please, Beyonder, come back and erase those issues from reality!!! *** Dracula did fight the Silver Surfer, and beat the $#@! out of him, I kid you not. I was pretty annoyed by that at the time, to be honest. I could easily see the Surfer grab Drac by the neck, and fly him to the other side of the Earth (where it's sunny) before he can turn into mist or whatever. *** Kitty's cross not working on Dracula because she's Jewish: that could be a riff from Polanski's The Fearless Vampire Killers, in which a Jewish vampire chuckles at a victim brandishing a cross, saying it won't work on him. I'm not sure the argument in X-Men works as well, because vampires were often shown to fear crosses that are just lying around, and not carried by anyone; it looks as if it is the vampire's beliefs that matter, if they matter at all. *** I don't know much about Man-bat... Is he a vampire like Morbius (needing to drink blood) or is he just a giant bat? In the few stories I read, he was mostly flying around and dodging bullets, while Morbius would from time to time have the urge to bite somebody and drink their blood. (With a leg strangely twisted behind him, as it was drawn by Frank Robbins!) *** Strange Sports Stories sounds like something worth looking for. *** Man-Thing among the worst series? Say it ain't so!!! Gerber and Ploog could do no wrong in my book! Man-Thing was not the main protagonist of his own book, true, nor was he even the catalyst for the action most of the time... but as Jeff mentioned we never knew what he would do, and because of his nature and power it could be something absolutely benign of completely terrifying. That uncertainty and Gerber's unique style made the series a thing of beauty! *** Baron Blood I know little about; just that he was featured in two of my favourite issues of Captain America ever. So he's got that going for him, which is nice. *** You gentlemen are right: it's MUCH scarier when the victims of a horror character have no idea what they're facing. Once you know, a ghost or a vampire or a monster just become another kind of super-villain. *** "Quick, Green Lantern! Use your ring to drive a wooden stake through Dracula's heart!... Oh, wait..." *** Gold Key books... You guys impress me. Those are almost legendary things to me, as we didn't get them around here (nor did we get the French translations, available ony from time to time in plastic bags at the five-and-dimes). I have a grad total of four reprint books of Tarzan, John Carter and Turok, and that's all. (Plus one issue of Black Beauty). *** Son of Satan I really loved. His being the son of the "real" Satan, and not some two-bit imitator like Mephisto or Satannish, gave the comic a certain weight that was more Rosemary's Baby than Silver Surfer. That Hellstrom would not systematically do bad things makes perfect sense to me, as Satan is first and foremost a rebel angel; I'd expect his son to rebel against his dad. Besides, Daimon Hellstrom wasn't a very pleasant individual doing good deeds when he could; he had the arrogance, selfishness, pride and short temper that came with his bloodline. When he did good things (like beating up demons, say), it was usually because they had angered him, not out of the goodness of his heart. And that's *despite* having been trained as a man of the Church! Theologically, Daimon being a flawed being was a logical thing too; Jesus, being the son of God, is supposed to be perfect; Daimon, being the son of the devil, should be pretty screwed up. Which he was. I love the quasi-crucifixion story that Marvel partly re-wrote at the end of the series (one of Bill Mantlo's shining moments, IMO). One thing more, but of a personal nature: this is the ONLY time I ever enjoyed the art of Jim Mooney. *** Man-Wolf... True, that character was a little silly. Odd origin, and yeah, John Jameson was a real magnet for super power-providing accidents. Marvel also never made much of him. Turning him into Star-god didn't do it either! Last time I saw Jameson he was She-Hulk's on-again off-again boyfriend, and that was a role much better suited to him! Werewolf by Night was naturally much more interesting, although I like the design of Man-Wolf (with a wolf's head instead of a Lon Chaney face). But Jack Russel got a more lupine look later on, and Bill Sienkiewicz made it rock! *** Dell's Dracula I only knew from a comic-book encyclopedia. The concept seemed grotesque to me, and I'm glad to hear I wasn't wrong! Your description of the comic was hilarious. Looking forward to part 2! |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Oct 2, 2023 14:03:29 GMT -5
Reaction videos being a thing on Youtube, here's my reaction post to the podcast! *** Great chemistry, guys. It would be fun to hear you talk about just anything, I'm sure. "Frank Robbins: Bird or Human?" Nicely done! I probably read too much into this, but I always felt Storm undergoing so much emotional trauma in such a short time (this was around the same time Doom tried to gaslight her, wasn't it?) Directly fed into the "new" Storm with the mowhawk. I feel like Claremont only understands his characters once they've suffered, and thus Storm became a much more compelling character as a result of all of this. I would absolutely pay good money to read that ending. In the case of innate artifacts, I think it's the belief of the people who created and used it that matter. By your logic, couldn't a vampire just convince themselves not to believe anymore and then become immune? This occurred to me pretty soon after the episode. You're right. They're not the same. And yet, how they were written--or at least their respective statuses in Batman and Spiderman's universes--felt the same. What a bird. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 2, 2023 14:47:59 GMT -5
Kitty's cross not working on Dracula because she's Jewish: that could be a riff from Polanski's The Fearless Vampire Killers, in which a Jewish vampire chuckles at a victim brandishing a cross, saying it won't work on him. I'm not sure the argument in X-Men works as well, because vampires were often shown to fear crosses that are just lying around, and not carried by anyone; it looks as if it is the vampire's beliefs that matter, if they matter at all. In the case of innate artifacts, I think it's the belief of the people who created and used it that matter. By your logic, couldn't a vampire just convince themselves not to believe anymore and then become immune? Yes, that would make a lot of sense in this context! However, when holy symbols are scaring monsters away in that type of story, it's always sort of assumed that the Abrahamic God is real, and that irrespective of faith, crosses or stars of David have intrinsic powers because of their connection to the divine. Personally I much prefer that way of using holy symbols, as I think gothic vampires, werewolves, witches and sons of Satan work much better in a straight Judaeo-Christian (or moslem) context than in some modern re-interpretation. (Personal preference, here; I'm not saying that other interpretations are wrong or anything. It's just that vampires born of a viral transmission don't interest me as much as the old-fashioned kind). Also, I don't think one can choose to believe or not to believe even if such a choice could be useful to a vampire; one may lose faith, sure, but I don't think it can come out of an act of will. Dracula definitely believes in God, so I expect him to recognize the power of the crucifix and of the star of David (as that's essentially a symbol of the same god), but if faith is important here, I wouldn't expect Varnae to be affected at all (unless Varnae converted since the Hyborian Age). I wonder if a priest ever tried to bless the water contained in a vampire's body. That might result in a rather spectacular end!!! |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Oct 2, 2023 15:01:07 GMT -5
However, when holy symbols are scaring monsters away in that type of story, it's always sort of assumed that the Abrahamic God is real, and that irrespective of faith, crosses or stars of David have intrinsic powers because of their connection to the divine. Personally I much prefer that way of using holy symbols, I strongly dislike this approach in a shared universe. Sure, I'm willing to believe one monster resides in a universe ruled by a specifically Catholic God, but not the entire Marvel Universe. So, if a cross repels Dracula, Ben Grimm and Kamala Khan simply belong to the wrong faiths? Worse yet, if we are validating the existence of a God in fiction, then where is he? How come Satan's minions are so free to torment innocents without any intervention on this God's behalf? Isn't it pretty disturbing to acknowledge the existence of an indifferent God who sits back and simply allows evil to happen? Including religion in comics is tricky and (in my mind) usually best to avoid. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Oct 2, 2023 15:13:24 GMT -5
Great episode, guys!
After starting with the Frank Robbins bit, I was surprised that you didn't mention that Robbins was the writer of the first stories of Man-Bat, George's lead-off in the Five Worst list.
Now as for that list, some of your picks would have made my list of Five Best, and others I'm at least extremely fond of...
Like Man-Bat. Come on, "Who can we have Batman fight? How about Man-Bat?!" I had a kid tell me about that character's first appearance when I was 12, and I couldn't believe it really existed. It sounded like an awesome idea to me, something I liked even better than Batman himself.
Morbius? Incredible visual, and out of the zillions of super-villains who screw themselves over with ill-advised science experiments, turning yourself into a vampire is one of the best. Easy to explain, since we all know what vampires are. I remember appreciating details like Morb' having hollow bones, making him light enough to glide. Good work from Pablo Marcos in Vampire Tales and Frank Robbins in Adventures into Fear.
Son of Satan was a disappointment in the long run, but those first couple of installments are some of my favorite Herb Trimpe work ever. I'll never forget him riding a chariot pulled by flaming demon horses, with a crazed look in his eye and a trident in his hands. Like you, I was shocked that Marvel would even publish such a provocative title, but I knew I had to have it when they started promoting it (originally under the early, ultimately rejected title of The Mark of Satan, as those of us who were clever enough to crack the cryptographic code on the Bullpen Bulletins page without having the FOOM key.
Speaking of which, those coded messages also revealed that Man-Wolf was initially intended to be "J. Jonah Jameson Presents My Son the Man-Wolf!" Another strong visual, and I enjoyed his short run in Creatures on the Loose. Yeah, there was a better werewolf in the lineup, but the more the merrier, I say. I'm very curious about Marvel's original plans for a Man-Wolf character that Rich Buckler reported to have worked on, I'm guessing for the never-published Savage Tales #2 (which would have been a very different magazine than what took that number in the revival a few years later).
Baron Blood? OK, not a favorite, but interesting that yet another character on this list was drawn by Frank Robbins.
Man-Thing--I'm with Jeff, here. I love books where the lead character isn't available for the usual kind of character development. Man-Thing, the Zombie, and Godzilla are three of my faves from 70's Marvel.
The fact that I just bought the Phantom Stranger Omnibus should demonstrate where I stand on that character. One of Aparo's two best features, that's enough on its own. There may have been some weaknesses, but it was a trailblazer in incorporating a variety of monster menaces, with mummies, sorcerers, ice giants, the Flying Dutchman, Frankenstein, the Hunchback, all sorts of terrific threats for the mysterious man in black to take on.
I bought Strange Sport Stories #1 off the stands, despite having little interest in sports. The bizarreness of the bowling story went past me, but I assume the Rip Van Winkle angle had to do with Rip playing ten pins with the little people in the original story. And I doubt the editor was that unengaged with the material, as Julius Schwartz was said to be a huge sports fan, eager to get that genre functioning on the American comics stands.
The Dark Shadows comic is one I have no attachment to--I don't have any sentiment for any Gold Key comics--but Jeff's comments had me looking for samples. The art's by Martian Manhunter's Joe Certa, and it's interesting to see how many of the conventions Certa used on the John Jones series appeared here: concentric circles, overlaid figures depicting a character's transformation, the dashed-line approach to indicating invisibility.
Dell's Dracula was one of my early comics, specifically the reprint of the first episode. Tony Tallarico's art doesn't command a lot of respect, but it was highly memorable in a pop-art way. Yes, the comic was awful, and I realized that after I made the mistake of buying it, but I'll never forget it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 2, 2023 15:51:28 GMT -5
However, when holy symbols are scaring monsters away in that type of story, it's always sort of assumed that the Abrahamic God is real, and that irrespective of faith, crosses or stars of David have intrinsic powers because of their connection to the divine. Personally I much prefer that way of using holy symbols, I strongly dislike this approach in a shared universe. Sure, I'm willing to believe one monster resides in a universe ruled by a specifically Catholic God, but not the entire Marvel Universe. So, if a cross repels Dracula, Ben Grimm and Kamala Khan simply belong to the wrong faiths? That's a peril of shared universe that involves real-life concerns, true, if we want its continuity to be tight. It's also the reason Jim Shooter decided we wouldn't see the "real" Satan, nor Jesus, nor God in Marvel comics; they had to be substituted with other characers posing as them. When it comes to Ben, Dracula and Kamala having the "wrong" faith, I don't think there's much of a problem because they all worship the Abrahamic God; a simple ecumenical comment in the vein of "God reveals himself to different people in different ways" would probably reconcile everyone. It would even apply to Hindus and all other believers (and as for atheists... we don't care). In fact, Dracula was, as I recall, repelled by a star of David once; I don't know it it happened with a Q'uran, but as a reader that wouldn't have struck me as odd. That being said, the very reason horror stories with a religious slant are so appealing is that they come with their cultural meaning. I'm from a Catholic background, so when I watch a movie with the Devil in it, I find him a more formidable enemy than if he was Xemnorr, demon of the 16th dimension. Old Nick comes with a pre-built cultural weight that no Mephisto, Satannish or Marduk Kurios can hope to match: to me they're not cosmic horros I was warned against since I was a kid, they're comic-book super-villains. Sure, the same adventures can be told by having some other other-dimensional creature posing as the "actual" devil, but I find them far, far less interesting. Well, the heroes always manage to defeat evil, so I suppose it's all part of the divine plan. That or we thread-drift into a theological discussion!  I wouldn't want to see God in a shared comic-book universe, but that's because it would diminish what is supposed to be the be-all and end-all of all existence; God should not be a mere character. Having unnamed avatars of Jesus show up to save Ghost Rider's soul from time to time is as far as I'm willing to go, provided it's done in accordance with tradition. (And that Tony Isabella story had a pretty cool ending). Tricky to do, I fully agree! As for avoiding it altogether, I think it depends on the type of story you want to tell. Tomb of Dracula featured Satan and at least one angel, and since the entire celestial realm was kept at a safe distance, I think it worked quite nicely. Had Dracula faced Mephisto, I can guarantee that I wouldn't have cared at all. Can we tella good vampire story without mentioning religion? Oh, sure! Most of Tomb of Dracula featured that type of stories! But it's also fun to have comics like Son of Satan, which are closer to old folk tales in which the devil plays an important part. (Not sure SoS wouldn't have worked better outside of the MU, however). |
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Post by commond on Oct 2, 2023 16:40:40 GMT -5
FWIW, I think Man Thing's debut in Savage Tales is a fantastic horror story. The Gerber stuff I wouldn't classify as horror.
Son of Satan rules. The real disappointment is Werewolf by Night, though it does have Ploog art and one classic ending that they chicken out on later on. When they start the new direction stuff, you know it's headed for cancellation.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Oct 2, 2023 18:08:58 GMT -5
The real disappointment is Werewolf by Night Moreso than Man-Wolf? Do explain. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Oct 2, 2023 18:10:03 GMT -5
Great episode, guys! After starting with the Frank Robbins bit, I was surprised that you didn't mention that Robbins was the writer of the first stories of Man-Bat, George's lead-off in the Five Worst list. Now as for that list, some of your picks would have made my list of Five Best, and others I'm at least extremely fond of... Like Man-Bat. Come on, "Who can we have Batman fight? How about Man-Bat?!" I had a kid tell me about that character's first appearance when I was 12, and I couldn't believe it really existed. It sounded like an awesome idea to me, something I liked even better than Batman himself. Morbius? Incredible visual, and out of the zillions of super-villains who screw themselves over with ill-advised science experiments, turning yourself into a vampire is one of the best. Easy to explain, since we all know what vampires are. I remember appreciating details like Morb' having hollow bones, making him light enough to glide. Good work from Pablo Marcos in Vampire Tales and Frank Robbins in Adventures into Fear. Son of Satan was a disappointment in the long run, but those first couple of installments are some of my favorite Herb Trimpe work ever. I'll never forget him riding a chariot pulled by flaming demon horses, with a crazed look in his eye and a trident in his hands. Like you, I was shocked that Marvel would even publish such a provocative title, but I knew I had to have it when they started promoting it (originally under the early, ultimately rejected title of The Mark of Satan, as those of us who were clever enough to crack the cryptographic code on the Bullpen Bulletins page without having the FOOM key. Speaking of which, those coded messages also revealed that Man-Wolf was initially intended to be "J. Jonah Jameson Presents My Son the Man-Wolf!" Another strong visual, and I enjoyed his short run in Creatures on the Loose. Yeah, there was a better werewolf in the lineup, but the more the merrier, I say. I'm very curious about Marvel's original plans for a Man-Wolf character that Rich Buckler reported to have worked on, I'm guessing for the never-published Savage Tales #2 (which would have been a very different magazine than what took that number in the revival a few years later). Baron Blood? OK, not a favorite, but interesting that yet another character on this list was drawn by Frank Robbins. Man-Thing--I'm with Jeff, here. I love books where the lead character isn't available for the usual kind of character development. Man-Thing, the Zombie, and Godzilla are three of my faves from 70's Marvel. The fact that I just bought the Phantom Stranger Omnibus should demonstrate where I stand on that character. One of Aparo's two best features, that's enough on its own. There may have been some weaknesses, but it was a trailblazer in incorporating a variety of monster menaces, with mummies, sorcerers, ice giants, the Flying Dutchman, Frankenstein, the Hunchback, all sorts of terrific threats for the mysterious man in black to take on. I bought Strange Sport Stories #1 off the stands, despite having little interest in sports. The bizarreness of the bowling story went past me, but I assume the Rip Van Winkle angle had to do with Rip playing ten pins with the little people in the original story. And I doubt the editor was that unengaged with the material, as Julius Schwartz was said to be a huge sports fan, eager to get that genre functioning on the American comics stands. The Dark Shadows comic is one I have no attachment to--I don't have any sentiment for any Gold Key comics--but Jeff's comments had me looking for samples. The art's by Martian Manhunter's Joe Certa, and it's interesting to see how many of the conventions Certa used on the John Jones series appeared here: concentric circles, overlaid figures depicting a character's transformation, the dashed-line approach to indicating invisibility. Dell's Dracula was one of my early comics, specifically the reprint of the first episode. Tony Tallarico's art doesn't command a lot of respect, but it was highly memorable in a pop-art way. Yes, the comic was awful, and I realized that after I made the mistake of buying it, but I'll never forget it. You know how, after the President delivers the State of the Union, the opposition party has someone give a rebuttal speech? I'm starting to think we should officially hire you for that position! And thanks for the clarification on Rip Van Winkle. I've never ever heard that part of the legend. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 2, 2023 18:19:49 GMT -5
After starting with the Frank Robbins bit, I was surprised that you didn't mention that Robbins was the writer of the first stories of Man-Bat, George's lead-off in the Five Worst list. The fact that I just bought the Phantom Stranger Omnibus should demonstrate where I stand on that character. One of Aparo's two best features, that's enough on its own. There may have been some weaknesses, but it was a trailblazer in incorporating a variety of monster menaces, with mummies, sorcerers, ice giants, the Flying Dutchman, Frankenstein, the Hunchback, all sorts of terrific threats for the mysterious man in black to take on. I didn't pick Man-bat , it was Morbius that was my first pick. Man-bat totally slipped my mind and probably would have been one of my favorites. The issue with the Ice giants is one of my favorite tales in the Phantom Stranger series. I think shaxper missed the mark on this series. |
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Post by commond on Oct 2, 2023 18:30:22 GMT -5
The real disappointment is Werewolf by Night Moreso than Man-Wolf? Do explain. I didn't have a problem with Man-Wolf in the original Spider-Man stories. Never read anything past that. I thought it added another wrinkle to Peter's relationship with Jonah and provided us with another layer to Jonah's character. Werewolf by Night, on the other hand, accomplished very little. I personally found it to be an extremely disappointing series. Others may disagree, but when I read it, I was hoping that it would contain a few gems here and there. There's one amazing ending (one of the best of the Bronze Age, imo), but they backtrack on immediately, and some cool art from Ploog. I guess that might be better than Man-Wolf for some folks, but my expectations for Werewolf by Night were much higher than they were for Man-Wolf. If it were half as good as Tomb of Dracula, I'd be happy, but it's not even a quarter as good. I blame the constant turnover with the creative team, and the lacklustre ensemble cast. |
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