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Post by rom on Sept 8, 2016 13:25:44 GMT -5
Great topic. B. Sienkiewicz's run on MK is one of my top five favorite artist runs on a comic series. Amazing & powerful art, and great stories as well. I'm enjoying the Epic volumes reprinting this series, and thought the Essentials were also great - BS's art looks just as good in b&w as it does in color.
His work on Elektra: Assasin and New Mutants was also amazing. I didn't read either of these series until long after the '80's, however.
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Post by rom on Sept 8, 2016 13:18:46 GMT -5
Great memories of Classic Machine Man. I only read a handful of issues back in the day, but just got the new color Trade reprinting the whole series. I'm slowly making my way through this, and am really enjoying the Kirby artwork. However, I'm a huge Steve Ditko fan - and am looking forward to the later issues (with Ditko art) even more.
Also worth noting is the superb MM 4-issue mini-series that was released circa Summer 1984; this has sublime art by the great Barry Windsor Smith, and took place in the future; it had an interesting cyber-punk/Blade Runner-ish vibe.
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Post by rom on Sept 8, 2016 13:13:21 GMT -5
I was born in the early '70's, so by the late '70's was getting into comics. Having an extremely limited budget & also not being able to drive at that young age, I didn't have a lot of opportunities to go to newsstands - so don't remember "collecting" any comics per se. I would typically just go to the newsstand on occasion and buy what I could afford & what looked cool at the time. I also remember really appreciating those 'bagged' comics that came three to a bag, since they typically included comics from the same series in chronological order.
I also remember going to newsstands at this time and seeing piles of the same comic on the floor; not sure why they would get 50 of the same exact issue - instead of getting many different comics (which would have made more sense). I specifically remember seeing a ton of Marvel Star Wars #38 (with great Michael Golden art) on the floor at a 7-11 type store, circa Spring 1980.
I remember going into another store & seeing a lot of the comics on the newsstand with the covers torn off; I'm sure there was a reason for this, but I always wondered who would want to buy comics without covers - and why a store would bother selling them like that...
It wasn't until the early '80's when comic specialty stores sprang up that I was actually trying to "collect" a specific series; it was also helpful that a lot of these direct market books had checklists which specified the exact dates the comics came out - this was invaluable in those pre-Internet days.
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Post by rom on Sept 8, 2016 12:04:24 GMT -5
Yes! I fully agree with the assessment of Infantino's work on the Marvel SW series. As you said, he definitely brought a stability & artistic professionalism to the series that was missing with the haphazard different artists who worked on the title prior to his taking over the art. I liked all of his SW issues, but I especially enjoyed his work on the Crimson Jack & the "Waterworld" issues. Also, the issue that came either right before (or right after) the ESB adaptation was great - IIRC, it was called "Death Probe" and involved a runaway probe droid; it was nice how this tied in to ESB to some extent.
I never made the connection between Infantino's consistent work on the series & the series continuing up to & well beyond the ESB adaptation. However, you're absolutely right that most of Marvel's licensed series from the '70's & '80's never lasted nearly as long as SW. I.e., Marvel's Battlestar Galctica, Logan's Run, Godzilla, and Star Trek didn't have extended runs at all. The exceptions were Star Wars, ROM Spaceknight, and Micronauts - all of which had relatively long runs.
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Post by rom on Sept 8, 2016 11:02:59 GMT -5
I have fond - but dim - memories of reading Savage Sword of Conan as a kid back in the day, but never got that many issues of the title. I remember it being tougher to track down than a lot of comics (due to it being a magazine instead of a comic, presumably).
So, it wasn't until Dark Horse started reprinting this about 10?! years ago in those large phone-book Trades that I became familiar with the series. I really enjoy the reprints, and don't mind the b&w artwork at all. Since the art was designed to be in b&w from the beginning, you can tell that the artists are making a point of applying more shading/detail to the art than if the plans were to add color later. Going along with this, it's nice that the night scenes actually look like they take place at night - again, this was because the comic was always intended to be in b&w (conversely, if you read some of the b&w Marvel Essentials - that are reprinting color comics that have the color removed - it's tough to tell the intended time of day much of the time).
In any case, the SSOC stories are also more edgy/violent than what we saw in the regular Conan the Barbarian color comic (out at the same time) - presumably because SSOC didn't have to deal with the comics code at the time.
My one complaint with the DH reprints is that I wish the covers could have been reprinted in their original color. However, other than that - these are stellar reproductions. The paper quality is better than the original mags. (slightly), and at the same time it reminds me of reading the original mags.
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Post by rom on Sept 8, 2016 10:39:50 GMT -5
Just to respond to several points:
I understand that Carmine Infantino may not have been the ideal SW artist due to his own "take" on the SW characters/tech, etc. However, I think that's what made his SW work interesting - he put his own "spin" on the SW universe. In fact, Infantino's Stormtroopers are my favorite artistic depiction of these characters - to the extent that I would like to see Hasbro make a comic-book two-pack with figures of these Infantino Troopers.
Yes, Al Williamson was definitely my favorite SW artist. His work brought to mind the Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon comic strips that inspired Star Wars in the first place. Though he didn't do much work on the Marvel series, it was nice that he did a whole run of the excellent SW newspaper strips - which I would never have read if not for the excellent DH reprints back in the '90's.
The 2002-2003 SW Marvel Trades (by DH) are superb - excellent reproduction & improved colors - these reprints are better than some newer collected editions I've seen. The only thing these are missing are the 1983 4-issue ROTJ comic adaptation. However, this ROTJ adaptation is included in the later DH Omnis reprinting this Marvel series. Note that later 2010-2012?! Omnis are reprinted in a smaller-than-average format - to cut costs, presumably.
The more recent Marvel Omnibuses reprinting their original series sound nice. The extras are a cool bonus, but I would only buy these if I didn't have any of the previous reprints.
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Post by rom on Sept 6, 2016 18:38:45 GMT -5
I'm sure you'll enjoy the Thundarr DVD's. I'm currently re-watching my set, and love this series. Again, I think I'm appreciating it more now than I did watching it as a kid many years ago.
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Post by rom on Sept 4, 2016 19:59:44 GMT -5
You're absolutely right of course, lindario, but as you say, depicting Luke as blond is something that occurs on action figures, lunch boxes, comics and even the official poster for the first movie. I used to wonder about this discrepancy as a kid, but just put it down to Mark Hamill's hair being a sandy, light brown colour. Great point. I always wondered about this as well. Luke's hair in the films is never even close to blonde, but the original Vintage action figures (from both ANH & ESB) depict him as having blonde hair, as do movie posters & these original Marvel comics. IIRC, it's also blonde in the Russ Manning & Williamson/Goodwin newspaper strips from the late '70's/early '80's (in the Sunday color strips).
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Post by rom on Sept 4, 2016 19:52:15 GMT -5
As always, great thread! I'm a huge SW fan, and these original Marvel SW comics were fantastic. I had a blast reading these as a kid back when they originally came out - not only were they the only real "Expanded Universe" (EU) at that time, but they had great, very fun stories, with colorful characters: Crimson Jack, Valance the cyborg bounty hunter, Jaxxon the green rabbit, Luke returning to Tattoine and running into Camie and Fixer, Princess Leia running into a whole army of Boba Fett look-alikes in her search for Han Solo, etc. Great stuff. The artwork was incredible as well - Carmine Infantino, Walt Simonson, Michael Golden (at least for one issue), Al Williamson, etc. I actually think these '70's/'80's Marvel SW comics are far superior in every way to all of the Dark Horse SW series (Dark Empire, Rebellion, etc.) that have come out from the early '90's-on, and this is coming from a fan of most of the SW Dark Horse comics.
Some of the many high-points of the series were the late Al Williamson's incredible artwork in the excellent Empire Strikes Back adaptation in 1980 - this was followed by his great adaptation of ROTJ in '83; also notable was his art in Star Wars #50, as well as the excellent #98.
Though a lot of fans don't like these because some of the stories seem cheesy (Jaxxon, anyone?) and the continuity doesn't fit into the post-1991 SW EU continuity, these are some of the first EU stories and have a great sci-fi/fantasy feel to them, similar to ANH. Also, IMHO the EU became bogged-down in the '90's with all of the various comics, novels, etc., and because of this I prefer the much more limited '70's/'80's EU ('78 Splinter of the Mind's Eye novel, Han Solo novels by Brian Daley, Lando Calrissian novels by L. Neil Smith, these 1977 - 1986 Marvel comics, etc.)
Re: the post-ROTJ issues, at the time I didn't like them, especially the ones with the punk rock white-skinned aliens & the green aliens. So, I pretty much stopped collecting the series not long after #81 (the excellent Jawas of Doom). However, I re-read many of these issues when Dark Horse reprinted them in the 200X's & gained a much greater appreciation for them. I guess my perspective had changed as I got older, and I was less critical of the stories as a result. In any case, the art by Cynthia Martin in many of these issues is stellar.
The Star Wars: A Long Time Ago TPB Marvel reprints that Dark Horse published in 2002-2003 are some of the best TPB reprints I've ever seen. Beautiful remastered color, all of the covers included in almost the full original size, and all of the #107 issues (and 3 Annuals) of the original Marvel series included as well, in their entirety. Great stuff. Other comic book companies could take lessons from the way these reprints were handled/produced. They've also been reprinted twice since then, i.e. the 2010-2012?! DH small Omnibuses, as well as the current much larger Marvel Omnibuses.
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Post by rom on Sept 3, 2016 18:29:22 GMT -5
Yet another great thread - very nostalgic. IIRC, my first memory of Tarzan was probably the Marvel comic series from the late '70's - I was a little kid when this series was out, and have vague memories of paging through a couple of issues at the time. For what it's worth, this Marvel series is scheduled to be reprinted by Dynamite later this year - hopefully this will actually come out: edelweiss.abovethetreeline.com/ProductDetailPage.aspx?sequence=40&group=catalog&mailingID=0&mailingGroupID=0&catalogID=3980715&org=&sku=1524100641Later, still as a kid - I remember seeing & enjoying the feature film Greystoke (1984) in the theater; starring Christopher Lambert. This inspired me to read the original ERB Tarzan novel, and I was impressed at how closely (in some cases) the film mirrored the novel. This remains my favorite Tarzan film. I then read several more Tarzan ERB novels. I also went on to read some of the John Carter, Warlord of Mars novels - interesting stuff, but quite bizzare in many cases - especially considering these were written 100 years ago. I did enjoy the Disney film John Carter back in 2012, and felt it was a great adaptation of the original novel(s); the descriptions of the characters/creatures in the novels were methodically and accurately reproduced in this underrated & superb film. Too bad it didn't do better theatrically.
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Post by rom on Sept 3, 2016 9:35:59 GMT -5
Yes but Jenny Agutter and Farrah Fawcett made it must see viewing for 70s sci-fi! -M This is true. JA was especially gorgeous at the time. I remember seeing bits and pieces of the film as a kid in the early '80's (network TV broadcast) and being quite impressed I guess if I had never read the LG novel I would have liked the movie better. In any case, you all have inspired me to revisit the film. I've only seen it once in it's entirety. I guess I need to give it another chance. I never saw the '70's Logan's Run TV series, either. I may have to check that out, as well. I know it's on DVD.
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Post by rom on Sept 2, 2016 20:35:55 GMT -5
Great thread! As a kid at the time, I really enjoyed the vastly underrated early '80's cartoon Thundarr the Barbarian - this took place on a post-apocalyptic Earth, and obviously was "inspired" to a great extent by Star Wars, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons & Dragons, etc. This cartoon definitely stood out among most of the other Saturday morning cartoon wasteland.
A while back, I saw all 4 DVD's of the entire series, and these brought back a lot of great memories; I liked how the show explored the remains of various U.S. cities - the fantasy element was strong as well. It was interesting to see all of the aliens/mutants & both advanced/primitive tech. It's also worth noting that Thundarr was one of the first sci-fi post-apocalytpic (PA) TV shows out there, and one of the only cartoons. Though since then we've seen a lot of PA TV shows since that time, Thundarr was definitely a fore-runner.
One of the most interesting aspects of the show was seeing Thundarr & his group (Ookla the Mok, Princess Ariel) go to a ruined U.S. city and being able to recognize which one it was; i.e., in one of the first episodes they went to "Manhat", which was obviously Manhattan (with the statue of liberty in the background, the subways, etc.). IIRC, in another episode they went to the ruins of Las Vegas, etc.
The show was actually better than I remember, much of which was because, via the DVD's, I was able to see all of the episodes in chronological order - and, the cleaned up/remastered picture & sound was amazing - this was obviously much better than seeing the show on an old, pre-cable CRT TV set back in the day.
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Post by rom on Sept 2, 2016 20:26:29 GMT -5
I read the short novel Logan's Run years ago, long before I saw the movie. It was brilliant - one of the best dystopian/post apocalyptic novels of all time. When I finally saw the film for the first time about 10 years ago, I hated it - it was an extremely poor adaptation of the book. The crummy effects had a lot to do with this, but they changed so many things & also left so much out that I could barely make my way through this. This sub-par movie was an extremely weak, watered-down version of the excellent novel. Conversely, I felt Marvel's '70's Logan's Run comic adaptation was superb - far superior to the film in every way. There were a couple of issues that went "beyond" the film adaptation as well. I wish the comic series had lasted longer. Too bad this short-lived series has never been collected. Here's a cover gallery: marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Logan's_Run_Vol_1
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Post by rom on Sept 2, 2016 10:55:07 GMT -5
To avoid confusion, note that two different things are being discussed here:
The OP created this thread to discuss the great but disturbing comic series (which was later collected) called Black Hole, by Charles Burns.
Separately, there was an old Disney sci-fi film from the late '70's called Black Hole, which IMHO was nothing more than a glorified Star Wars rip-off. That being said, the BH movie newspaper strip by Jack Kirby (shown above) does look cool; I wasn't aware of this prior to this thread. Like a lot of 1970's/early 1980's comics based on films, it seems like it may be more interesting than the film itself.
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Post by rom on Sept 2, 2016 10:33:36 GMT -5
Definitely. This Crumb documentary is fascinating & repellent, both at the same time....Also, I think watching the doc. actually helps you understand more where Crumb is coming from re: his work, i.e. you see his family & upbringing, etc. His brothers were obviously much more dysfunctional than he was; Crumb actually seemed "normal" in comparison - LOL. His brother Charles (the one who never left home) was an especially sad & pathetic case. When the doc. revealed his fate at the very end, it was quite depressing - but not unexpected.
On another note, I find a direct correlation between Crumb's commercial/financial success as an artist & his success with women. If he had never gotten famous he would have been just another poor schlub & lived his whole life in obscurity; I believe that this would have been his fate if he had never left Cleveland. It's extremely significant that Crumb went to San Francisco in the late '60's, right at the height of the whole Haight-Ashbury hippie movement - that definitely seemed to be what started him on the road to financial/commercial success - to the extent that he almost became a household name. I.e., even if you're not familiar with Crumb's work per se - you've probably heard of him & at least seen some of his artwork.
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