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Post by Randle-El on Dec 31, 2014 15:20:53 GMT -5
For some Bat-fans, seeing the possibility of a sexual/romantic relationship between Batman and Robin in a positive way is one of the essential fantasy aspects of those characters. Many gay Bat-fans do this to re-imagine the characters in ways that make them more attractive for them personally. In his essay "Batman, Deviance, and Camp" Andy Medhurst has written about how imagining a romantic relationship between Bruce and Dick helped him feel better about his own gay identity and less isolated. These fans aren't claiming Batman and Robin are "really" gay (as Wertham suggested) but that, because they are fantasy characters, we have more freedom to pretend that they are if (and when) we so choose. And we can maintain different and competing interpretations of a character simultaneously (e.g., I love both Adam West's "Bright Knight" and Frank Miller's "Dark Knight"). One of the pleasures and freedoms offered by fantasy is its ability to be read in a variety of (often contradictory) ways by each individual. This thread abounds with awesome insight, I never really thought of it like that but I'm totally cool with the message you've presented. If imagining that Bruce and Dick are a happy and well adjusted gay couple helps some young readers feel good about themselves and their own sexual identities then I'm more than happy to have them interpreted that way. I mean that's what superheroes are for us as youngsters, they're role models and the fact that they can do that in different ways is inspiring. Given that Robin was a minor under Bruce Wayne's legal guardianship, I would think a sexual relationship between the the two would be... inappropriate. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Dec 31, 2014 15:45:35 GMT -5
This thread abounds with awesome insight, I never really thought of it like that but I'm totally cool with the message you've presented. If imagining that Bruce and Dick are a happy and well adjusted gay couple helps some young readers feel good about themselves and their own sexual identities then I'm more than happy to have them interpreted that way. I mean that's what superheroes are for us as youngsters, they're role models and the fact that they can do that in different ways is inspiring. Given that Robin was a minor under Bruce Wayne's legal guardianship, I would think a sexual relationship between the the two would be... inappropriate. That's the problem I've always had with the idea of a Batman-Robin sexual relationship. Gay or straight, an adult in such a relationship with a child, regardless of genders involved, is at the very least inappropriate and, in most cultures, illegal. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 31, 2014 16:07:42 GMT -5
This thread abounds with awesome insight, I never really thought of it like that but I'm totally cool with the message you've presented. If imagining that Bruce and Dick are a happy and well adjusted gay couple helps some young readers feel good about themselves and their own sexual identities then I'm more than happy to have them interpreted that way. I mean that's what superheroes are for us as youngsters, they're role models and the fact that they can do that in different ways is inspiring. Given that Robin was a minor under Bruce Wayne's legal guardianship, I would think a sexual relationship between the the two would be... inappropriate. Given that Robin was a minor under Bruce Wayne's legal guardianship, I would think a sexual relationship between the the two would be... inappropriate. That's the problem I've always had with the idea of a Batman-Robin sexual relationship. Gay or straight, an adult in such a relationship with a child, regardless of genders involved, is at the very least inappropriate and, in most cultures, illegal. I think you're both making it too real world again. The above is a fantasy seen from a young reader's perspective, and it isn't meant to be the defacto canon but rather a personal interpretation that makes the reader feel normal and accepted and I just can't see how that kind of interpretation is inappropriate. To put it in a hetero perspective, how many of us fantasized about making it with some adult super model or actress growing up? In those fantasies, were you an adult? I obviously can't speak for everyone, but in my pubescent fantasies I wasn't imaging an adult version of myself dating Gates McFadden but rather me as I was at the time; a thirteen year old kid. Would said relationship be inappropriate and in fact illegal in real life? Absolutely...but that's not the point as its just a fantasy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 10:18:30 GMT -5
Even as a kid I thought it was incredibly stupid that when Batman ripped off a disguise he had on his cowl underneath. Why didn't the ears poke thru the fake mask?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 10:18:43 GMT -5
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 1, 2015 12:15:31 GMT -5
Even as a kid I thought it was incredibly stupid that when Batman ripped off a disguise he had on his cowl underneath. Why didn't the ears poke thru the fake mask? Bat Retractable Ears. Yeah...that always bugged me. |
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Post by Pól Rua on Jan 2, 2015 2:26:01 GMT -5
On that topic, from an old CBR cover contest... someone posted this one.  Seriously, he's wearing his glasses UNDER his mask? |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jan 2, 2015 3:09:00 GMT -5
On that topic, from an old CBR cover contest... someone posted this one. Seriously, he's wearing his glasses UNDER his mask? I love this because it's so damn goofy. Waid and Samnee explored some of this ridiculousness in the last DD issue as Matt tries to write his autobiography, and it was hilarious. Essentially Matt let Hawkeye beat him up after a flare arrow back in the day because to not react would have given away his blindness. Every time that Matt and Clint have met in costume since then has resulted in Matt keeping up the act. I laughed so hard at that. (The rest of the book is pretty grim, though. I don't understand why people constantly refer to Waid's DD as "light-hearted" when it's been pretty brutal throughout the run. Maybe because the art doesn't suggest "grim'n'gritty"?) |
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Post by Randle-El on Jan 3, 2015 13:32:14 GMT -5
I think you're both making it too real world again. The above is a fantasy seen from a young reader's perspective, and it isn't meant to be the defacto canon but rather a personal interpretation that makes the reader feel normal and accepted and I just can't see how that kind of interpretation is inappropriate. To put it in a hetero perspective, how many of us fantasized about making it with some adult super model or actress growing up? In those fantasies, were you an adult? I obviously can't speak for everyone, but in my pubescent fantasies I wasn't imaging an adult version of myself dating Gates McFadden but rather me as I was at the time; a thirteen year old kid. Would said relationship be inappropriate and in fact illegal in real life? Absolutely...but that's not the point as its just a fantasy. Look, I get that teenagers with raging hormones are going to have fantasies or crushes on older figures. I had them myself and that's pretty normal. But at the risk of belaboring my point, the difference between that and what you're suggesting is that Robin is a minor under the legal guardianship of Bruce Wayne. Unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure you didn't know Gates McFadden, nor did she have any kind of relationship with you where she exercised authority or care over you. I realize that you can't control what someone else thinks, but I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to have such fantasies about their parents, teachers, or other authority figures. Especially in this day and age where we regularly see headlines about teachers or coaches molesting kids, how are we expected to teach children to be safe and guard themselves against exploitation while at the same time encouraging them to fantasize about their coaches, teachers, parents, or other guardians? If someone needs to work out issues about their sexuality, fine -- but I'd respectfully suggest that they go about it in a manner that doesn't undermine the work of protecting them against authority figures who would abuse that authority. |
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Post by Randle-El on Jan 3, 2015 13:36:56 GMT -5
Seriously, he's wearing his glasses UNDER his mask?I love this because it's so damn goofy. Waid and Samnee explored some of this ridiculousness in the last DD issue as Matt tries to write his autobiography, and it was hilarious. Essentially Matt let Hawkeye beat him up after a flare arrow back in the day because to not react would have given away his blindness. Every time that Matt and Clint have met in costume since then has resulted in Matt keeping up the act. I laughed so hard at that. (The rest of the book is pretty grim, though. I don't understand why people constantly refer to Waid's DD as "light-hearted" when it's been pretty brutal throughout the run. Maybe because the art doesn't suggest "grim'n'gritty"?) Waid's current run is veering darker. I recall reading a few things online where Waid mentioned that this would be the case -- that Matt's currently sunny disposition would start to crack under the increasingly darker circumstances that he would find himself in. But in comparison to runs by Miller, Bendis, or Brubaker, Waid's run has most definitely been lighter, especially the earlier issues of the previous volume. I think it was issue #7 where Matt wears a "I'm not Daredevil" sweater to a holiday party -- outside of Kesel's short run in the 90s, there aren't too many other runs that could have pulled off that kind of gag. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jan 3, 2015 14:23:29 GMT -5
Seriously, he's wearing his glasses UNDER his mask?I love this because it's so damn goofy. Waid and Samnee explored some of this ridiculousness in the last DD issue as Matt tries to write his autobiography, and it was hilarious. Essentially Matt let Hawkeye beat him up after a flare arrow back in the day because to not react would have given away his blindness. Every time that Matt and Clint have met in costume since then has resulted in Matt keeping up the act. I laughed so hard at that. (The rest of the book is pretty grim, though. I don't understand why people constantly refer to Waid's DD as "light-hearted" when it's been pretty brutal throughout the run. Maybe because the art doesn't suggest "grim'n'gritty"?) Waid's current run is veering darker. I recall reading a few things online where Waid mentioned that this would be the case -- that Matt's currently sunny disposition would start to crack under the increasingly darker circumstances that he would find himself in. But in comparison to runs by Miller, Bendis, or Brubaker, Waid's run has most definitely been lighter, especially the earlier issues of the previous volume. I think it was issue #7 where Matt wears a "I'm not Daredevil" sweater to a holiday party -- outside of Kesel's short run in the 90s, there aren't too many other runs that could have pulled off that kind of gag. There's light moments, but that issue is also the one where Matt leads a bunch of kids through a blizzard after a bus crash and it's pretty hairy for much of the story. The next storyline would have Matt questioning his sanity once his father's bones are dug up. Then there's Coyote decapitating people and feeding off their psychic energy. Then Foggy's cancer. Then racist conspiracies. Then an insane Shroud trying to take over the San Francisco mob with Matt as his pawn. Then the Purple Man's illegitimate kids going on a mayham spree. It's really never been light, just doesn't beat you over the head with the darkness. There's always this sense that Matt is walking on the razor's edge of sanity, but he's too in denial to realize how close he is to slipping. |
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Post by Randle-El on Jan 3, 2015 15:56:00 GMT -5
There's light moments, but that issue is also the one where Matt leads a bunch of kids through a blizzard after a bus crash and it's pretty hairy for much of the story. The next storyline would have Matt questioning his sanity once his father's bones are dug up. Then there's Coyote decapitating people and feeding off their psychic energy. Then Foggy's cancer. Then racist conspiracies. Then an insane Shroud trying to take over the San Francisco mob with Matt as his pawn. Then the Purple Man's illegitimate kids going on a mayham spree. It's really never been light, just doesn't beat you over the head with the darkness. There's always this sense that Matt is walking on the razor's edge of sanity, but he's too in denial to realize how close he is to slipping. You aren't wrong. Perhaps I should revise my argument. Waid's run has definitely had a lot of dark moments in it, but he seems to punctuate them with just enough lighter moments to break up what would otherwise be a relentlessly dour run. It's somewhat like what Joss Whedon does in the Avengers -- overall, it's a fairly serious story with high stakes, but he inserts just enough moments of humor at just the right times. While it certainly isn't light in the same way that, say, Dan Slott's Silver Surfer is light, to me it's definitely a big contrast from the preceding volume. And yes, I would say the artwork -- especially the coloring -- has a lot to do with it as well. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 3, 2015 18:02:09 GMT -5
I think you're both making it too real world again. The above is a fantasy seen from a young reader's perspective, and it isn't meant to be the defacto canon but rather a personal interpretation that makes the reader feel normal and accepted and I just can't see how that kind of interpretation is inappropriate. To put it in a hetero perspective, how many of us fantasized about making it with some adult super model or actress growing up? In those fantasies, were you an adult? I obviously can't speak for everyone, but in my pubescent fantasies I wasn't imaging an adult version of myself dating Gates McFadden but rather me as I was at the time; a thirteen year old kid. Would said relationship be inappropriate and in fact illegal in real life? Absolutely...but that's not the point as its just a fantasy. Look, I get that teenagers with raging hormones are going to have fantasies or crushes on older figures. I had them myself and that's pretty normal. But at the risk of belaboring my point, the difference between that and what you're suggesting is that Robin is a minor under the legal guardianship of Bruce Wayne. Unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure you didn't know Gates McFadden, nor did she have any kind of relationship with you where she exercised authority or care over you. I realize that you can't control what someone else thinks, but I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to have such fantasies about their parents, teachers, or other authority figures. Especially in this day and age where we regularly see headlines about teachers or coaches molesting kids, how are we expected to teach children to be safe and guard themselves against exploitation while at the same time encouraging them to fantasize about their coaches, teachers, parents, or other guardians? If someone needs to work out issues about their sexuality, fine -- but I'd respectfully suggest that they go about it in a manner that doesn't undermine the work of protecting them against authority figures who would abuse that authority. I still think you're taking it way to literally, I mean if we were talking about DC turning this interpretation into reality then sure your points would be valid...but personal fantasy is a whole different animal, it isn't logical it just...is. The fact that in the comic Dick Grayson is the ward of Bruce Wayne doesn't even enter into the equation, it's merely two guys living together happily with out any negative reactions from all the other people in their world. It's about acceptance and normalcy, not advocating that relationships with older authority figures are okay and I think the difference is clear. I think this again goes back to something Grant Morrison said about comics; kids see a guy running around in bright blue spandex and deflecting bullets off his chest and all they think is, "That's awesome!", illustrating that they seem to intrinsically know it's just fiction so the specifics don't matter...where as its only the adults who see that same thing and can only ask, "Wait, how does he do that? That's ridiculous." seeming to not grasp that yes it's ridiculous, but's its not real so that doesn't matter. And it's the same here, the real world implications don't matter, just the idea that being gay is acceptable. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jan 3, 2015 22:10:46 GMT -5
There's light moments, but that issue is also the one where Matt leads a bunch of kids through a blizzard after a bus crash and it's pretty hairy for much of the story. The next storyline would have Matt questioning his sanity once his father's bones are dug up. Then there's Coyote decapitating people and feeding off their psychic energy. Then Foggy's cancer. Then racist conspiracies. Then an insane Shroud trying to take over the San Francisco mob with Matt as his pawn. Then the Purple Man's illegitimate kids going on a mayham spree. It's really never been light, just doesn't beat you over the head with the darkness. There's always this sense that Matt is walking on the razor's edge of sanity, but he's too in denial to realize how close he is to slipping. You aren't wrong. Perhaps I should revise my argument. Waid's run has definitely had a lot of dark moments in it, but he seems to punctuate them with just enough lighter moments to break up what would otherwise be a relentlessly dour run. It's somewhat like what Joss Whedon does in the Avengers -- overall, it's a fairly serious story with high stakes, but he inserts just enough moments of humor at just the right times. While it certainly isn't light in the same way that, say, Dan Slott's Silver Surfer is light, to me it's definitely a big contrast from the preceding volume. And yes, I would say the artwork -- especially the coloring -- has a lot to do with it as well. I agree. That's why I love it so much as a long-time DD fan. Despite how bleak it can be, it's still about a guy who makes the best out of life, no matter how much it's crapped on him. No matter how bad it gets, you can find a way back. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 6, 2015 5:42:27 GMT -5
HYDRA: for being basically a neo-fascistic organisation with deep ties to Nazi Germany, they tend to be pretty equal opportunity.
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