Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 7, 2023 7:33:41 GMT -5
So I'm up to 102.. planning on pushing through to the end tonight maybe. Some comments: The Dani-Kiro relationship is so random, I thought I missed an issue. His dying then not was really silly, and just was a whole lot of useless false drama. Yeah, I actually quite liked the idea of Dani and Kiro being a couple, but the whole romantic angle just really came out of nowhere. They're making the galaxy seem very small indeed by having the Nagai pop up everywhere. Just how many of them are there? I've mentioned it before a fair few times in this thread, but one of the real problems that Duffy had to contend with was the ever more draconian and limiting instructions from Lucasfilm on what she could or couldn't do with the Star Wars central characters. So, in order to have characters that she could do something with, the central cast tends to get sidelined and pushed out of the picture by all the assorted Nagai, Zeltrons, Hiromi and Tof characters that pour into the comic. The Han-Leia-Fenn triangle is super forced and feels wrong. If they wanted to do a big storyline with the Mandalorians great, but as is, seems like just random tension... They might as well have a 'very special Wedding issue' and have Darth Vader's ghost interrupt it. Yeah, the return of Fenn Shysa should've been an enjoyable reacquainting with a fantastic character for readers – especially considering how great his first appearance had been! But it is utterly squandered by Duffy reducing him to little more than a way to contrive a love-triangle and as a means to introduce Bey. Then there's Bey.. the hero of Han's childhood he's never mentioned before, and the Legend that no one has talked about before. So he's half Nagai.. so they've been around for at least 35-40 years... and they picked NOW to turn up? Not after the 1st Death Star blew up? Why not help the rebels, then have good will and swoop in? Much more logical and effective than what they did. Of course, we know why, but this is the problem when you try to retcon things instead of moving forward and doing your own thing.. Duffy seems to be trying to do both, and it didn't work, at all. Well, Bey does state at some point (issue #100 maybe??) that the Nagai invasion has been decades in the planning. Bey's mother was an early scout for the aliens, if memory serves. Basically, the Nagai were waiting to see who won the Galactic Civil War before attempting to conquer the victors. I'm not saying that makes a whole bunch of sense, but the Nagai strategy is at least explained in the pages of the comic. Also, I think the 'My Hiromi' title is a riff on the song 'My Sherona'.. I don't know why, just what popped into my head. Maybe. I still think it's more likely a punning play on the phrase, "my hero!" The whole thing made the Galaxy, again, feel very, very small. How the heck did everyone end up on Zeltros at the same time? Aren't there any other planets? I agree about making the SW Universe seem very small, but like I said above, Duffy was kinda forced into over-using the Nagai, Zeltron, Hiromi and Tof characters because she wasn't allowed to do much with Luke, Han and Leia. That must've been incredibly frustrating as a writer. As she herself has said in interviews, it soon became obvious to her that Lucasfilm just really didn't want a Star Wars comic on the shelves anymore. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 7, 2023 7:39:51 GMT -5
There were other choices though... like she could have focused on Mandalore... made that a thing..explored the area, etc. She could have kept popping up random planets, too.. I think an 'adventure of the week' format with some ongoing sub plots would have fit alot better.
And it's not like she didn't use Han, Luke and Leia... maybe she wasn't allowed to have Han and Leia get married, say, but clearly they are in the book.
I guess I missed the line where day said they were planning for years.. that's good at least. It doesn't explain why they can't take the Tof (who are massively underwhelming, IMO) or why they got followed, but it's definitely good.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 7, 2023 9:32:26 GMT -5
There were other choices though... like she could have focused on Mandalore... made that a thing..explored the area, etc. She could have kept popping up random planets, too.. I think an 'adventure of the week' format with some ongoing sub plots would have fit alot better. And it's not like she didn't use Han, Luke and Leia... maybe she wasn't allowed to have Han and Leia get married, say, but clearly they are in the book. Yeah, but she wasn't allowed to advance those characters in any way, even temporarily. They're basically stuck in stasis since the end of ROTJ. Luke wasn't even allowed to progress with his abilities in the Force or start training Leia or set up any kind of Jedi training academy. I know that there were several story ideas that Duffy had for the central cast in the immediate aftermath of ROTJ that were shot down by Lucasfilm, who began really tightening up on stuff she couldn't show in the comic as 1984 turned into 1985 and beyond. It might even have been the case that Mandalore and the Supercommandoes were off limits too (though clearly the David Michelinie created character of Fenn Shysa was still fair game). That's why the book begins to become flooded with new characters/species towards the end; these were characters that Duffy could actually do something with! I'm not saying that Duffy couldn't have done a better job with the last year or so's worth of SW comics -- she definitely went off the boil, in my opinion -- but I think you also have to accept that having her writing so dramatically restrained by Lucasfilm must've hurt these later issues, as she herself claims. Who knows what great stories or ideas were prevented from seeing print? |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 7, 2023 20:39:29 GMT -5
I wonder what changed between this and Dark Empire? I know it was a couple years later, but the plan for Dark Empire was not too far after this.. and those things all happen in it. And then of course the AU is not too long after that.
Could it be that Lucas wasn't opposed to any development, but just didn't like Duffy's ideas? Or made it was the decision to do the Special Editions, and get more Star Wars out there?
Or perhaps the success of Heir to the Empire led to Lucasfilm realizing the potential of more stories?
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 8, 2023 0:40:25 GMT -5
I wonder what changed between this and Dark Empire? I know it was a couple years later, but the plan for Dark Empire was not too far after this.. and those things all happen in it. And then of course the AU is not too long after that. Could it be that Lucas wasn't opposed to any development, but just didn't like Duffy's ideas? Or made it was the decision to do the Special Editions, and get more Star Wars out there? Or perhaps the success of Heir to the Empire led to Lucasfilm realizing the potential of more stories? That's a really good question. It could've been something as simple as George Lucas not being sure whether he was going to make a sequel (or sequels) to ROTJ in the years immediately after its release. So, maybe Lucasfilm were a bit overly controlling in the two or three years after Episode VI came out? Interestingly, Dark Empire was originally slated to be published by Marvel in 1990, before changing to Dark Horse in 1991. So, a good little while before the Special Editions happened in 1997. Maybe by then George knew he was done with making new SW films and therefore was less concerned about the comics? It's worth remembering that fan interest in SW was at an all-time low in the years 1988-1991. That may've meant that Lucasfilm weren't as concerned by what happened in a comic book. It was the Dark Empire comic and Timothy Zahn's novel Heir to the Empire that provided the initial spark that eventually reignited fandom's interest in Star Wars as the 90s progressed and climaxed with the Special Editions in 1997 and the release of The Phantom Menace in 1999. I do know that Jo Duffy was pretty surprised by what Tom Veitch was able to get away with in Dark Empire. She did an interview with the Belgian TeeKay-421 magazine in 2011, in which she said Lucasfilm told her " to be very careful about using subjects such as the Jedi and the Empire, so I didn't use them. When I read Dark Empire, years later, I was surprised and disappointed when I saw what they had been able to do with the story." |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 8, 2023 8:34:47 GMT -5
I remember seeing an add or something in Marvel for Dark Empire... interesting it was all ready then, but didn't actually publish until 1993... Perhaps it took Zahn to prove it's viability? I was looking at Mike's... it took a long time for Dark Horse to get going. Dark Empire was semi-monthly, and the only other thing going at the time was the Classic Star Wars series, which reprinted the newspaper strips in color... I definitely bought that as I it came out.
Tales of the Jedi didn't start until a few years later.
Have you read any of the Dark Horse stuff? I feel like they did a good job in other eras, but their stuff with the main cast was not great.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 8, 2023 8:53:51 GMT -5
I remember seeing an add or something in Marvel for Dark Empire... interesting it was all ready then, but didn't actually publish until 1993... Perhaps it took Zahn to prove it's viability? began in 1991, I believe, the same year as Heir to the Empire. I initially read it via the UK reprint comics that Titan put out (though I got proper American copies of the mini-series later). Thinking about it as I was typing this, I have a recollection of reading it slightly later than 1991 and, sure enough, a look online shows me that Titan's UK Star Wars comic didn't begin until September 1992, so I was reading it a good year after it began in the U.S. I was looking at Mike's... it took a long time for Dark Horse to get going. Dark Empire was semi-monthly, and the only other thing going at the time was the Classic Star Wars series, which reprinted the newspaper strips in color... I definitely bought that as I it came out. My memory is that Classic Star Wars was a little after Dark Empire, and a look on the GCD says that it began in late 1992. I guess that was Dark Horse's second SW series? Have you read any of the Dark Horse stuff? I feel like they did a good job in other eras, but their stuff with the main cast was not great. Yes, I've read quite a bit of Dark Horse's SW output...mostly I bought it as it was coming out. I know what you mean about the comics centering around the main cast, though I did enjoy things like the adaptation of Shadows of the Empire and Star Wars: River of Chaos etc. But I agree in general that the best and most rewarding Dark Horse series were the ones that explored other characters who were in the background a little more. My favourite series were Dark Empire, X-Wing: Rogue Squadron, Empire, Rebellion, and Dark Times. I especially miss Star Wars: Dark Times, which told the adventures of exiled Jedi Dass Jennir, his Nosaurian friend Bomo Greenbark and the crew of the Uhumele...that was just a great comic. |
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Post by zaku on Aug 8, 2023 12:04:23 GMT -5
She did an interview with the Belgian TeeKay-421 magazine in 2011, in which she said Lucasfilm told her " to be very careful about using subjects such as the Jedi and the Empire, so I didn't use them. When I read Dark Empire, years later, I was surprised and disappointed when I saw what they had been able to do with the story." Yeah, was only after less than 4 years after the end of the Marvel series right? |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 8, 2023 15:06:51 GMT -5
Ohhh. I see. I was looking at the reprints when I was looking at Mike's website.. I thought that seemed odd.
I haven't read Dark Times... I definitely liked Ostrander's Tales of the Jedi stuff... I the post prequel series that starred a variety of Jedi before kinda settling on Quinlan Vos.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 8, 2023 15:32:17 GMT -5
She did an interview with the Belgian TeeKay-421 magazine in 2011, in which she said Lucasfilm told her " to be very careful about using subjects such as the Jedi and the Empire, so I didn't use them. When I read Dark Empire, years later, I was surprised and disappointed when I saw what they had been able to do with the story." Yeah, was only after less than 4 years after the end of the Marvel series right? Near enough...5 years really. The last issue of the original Marvel SW series was cover dated September 1986 and Dark Empire #1 is cover dated December 1991. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 8, 2023 15:48:45 GMT -5
Ohhh. I see. I was looking at the reprints when I was looking at Mike's website.. I thought that seemed odd. I haven't read Dark Times... I definitely liked Ostrander's Tales of the Jedi stuff... I the post prequel series that starred a variety of Jedi before kinda settling on Quinlan Vos. I picked up the first two or three story arcs of Tales of the Jedi series. The ones that focused on Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider...and I think one about the Freedon Nadd Uprising??? It's been a long old while since I read those. I wasn't massively into the series, so I dropped it fairly early on and sold my issues. Star Wars: Dark Times is really worth searching out if you liked the Dark Horse comics. It's set just after the Emperor's Jedi purge and Order 66, and it span out of the final few issues of Star Wars: Republic, which is where the Jedi Knight Dass Jennir was first introduced. The art in the series was mostly handled by Douglas Wheatley and is absolutely breathtaking. Worth the price of admission alone! But actually, Randy Stradley's writing and dialogue is fantastic too, with great characters. It really is top notch stuff. |
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 8, 2023 16:12:00 GMT -5
It's worth remembering that fan interest in SW was at an all-time low in the years 1988-1991. To a degree. In 1987, George Lucas sparked major interest when he appeared at Starlog magazine's convention celebrating the 10th anniversary of the original Star Wars. When talked about the success Star Wars had been, and added "will be"--meaning more Star Wars movies were coming, the audience went wild for that comment. It supports his then-constant advancement of visual FX for the purpose of restoring / updating the Original Trilogy (1997's Special Editions), and eventually, the Prequel trilogy. That said, I believe fans were just anxiously waiting for each new step Lucas took toward bringing back Star Wars, with all of the comic and novel spin-offs also keeping that interest alive. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 8, 2023 18:08:25 GMT -5
Ohhh. I see. I was looking at the reprints when I was looking at Mike's website.. I thought that seemed odd. I haven't read Dark Times... I definitely liked Ostrander's Tales of the Jedi stuff... I the post prequel series that starred a variety of Jedi before kinda settling on Quinlan Vos. I picked up the first two or three story arcs of Tales of the Jedi series. The ones that focused on Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider...and I think one about the Freedon Nadd Uprising??? It's been a long old while since I read those. I wasn't massively into the series, so I dropped it fairly early on and sold my issues. Star Wars: Dark Times is really worth searching out if you liked the Dark Horse comics. It's set just after the Emperor's Jedi purge and Order 66, and it span out of the final few issues of Star Wars: Republic, which is where the Jedi Knight Dass Jennir was first introduced. The art in the series was mostly handled by Douglas Wheatley and is absolutely breathtaking. Worth the price of admission alone! But actually, Randy Stradley's writing and dialogue is fantastic too, with great characters. It really is top notch stuff. yeah, those are the ones... I have fond memories, but it's been a while. I might have to pull them out. |
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Post by Calidore on Aug 9, 2023 18:23:38 GMT -5
Might be a silly problem, but as much as I wanted to read the Star Wars newspaper strips, Dark Horse's Classic Star Wars didn't work for me due to the reformatting. The combination of a daily strip's writing rhythm and comic book flow just kept me at arm's length, like forcing two incompatible musical styles together.
Other than that, I'd also like to read Dark Horse's original Star Wars work, but there's so much scattered over so many series taking place in so many parts of the timeline, I have no idea how I'd go about it.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 9, 2023 19:29:05 GMT -5
Might be a silly problem, but as much as I wanted to read the Star Wars newspaper strips, Dark Horse's Classic Star Wars didn't work for me due to the reformatting. The combination of a daily strip's writing rhythm and comic book flow just kept me at arm's length, like forcing two incompatible musical styles together. I can't say I ever had any real problem with the re-formatting in the Classic Star Wars series -- and I had first been introduced to parts of the Archie Goodwin and Al Williamson era of the strip in its original format when it was re-printed in the Sunday Express Magazine over here in the UK in the mid-80s. But if you want to read the SW newspaper strip in its entirety in the original formatting, I would definitely recommend IDW's three volume Star Wars: The Classic Newspaper Comics collection from 2017 and 2018. No idea if they are still in print, but they are gorgeous editions and weren't too expensive back in the day. Other than that, I'd also like to read Dark Horse's original Star Wars work, but there's so much scattered over so many series taking place in so many parts of the timeline, I have no idea how I'd go about it. Well, the Dark Empire trilogy is a good place to start, as it continues the story from the original trilogy, with the usual central cast. It was also Dark Horse's first SW series, though Cam Kennedy's artwork isn't to everyone's taste (personally, I like it though). After that, it's probably best to just go with eras that interest you most. As mentioned above, one of my favourites was Dark Times, which was set just after Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, but I also really enjoyed the ongoing Empire and Rebellion series, which featured story arcs focusing upon different sets of characters during the time frame of Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. The X-Wing: Rogue Squadron series really had its moments too. Series that I thought were pretty lacklustre would include the three Crimson Empire mini-series and the various Boba Fett one-shots. I also didn't much care for Tales of the Jedi, but as you can see from the posts above, wildfire2099 really liked it. |
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