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Post by Dizzy D on Feb 6, 2015 16:20:13 GMT -5
It's a discussion we had on the old boards as well: what defines a superhero? And we never got around to finding a working definition that didn't include some characters who most agree aren't and some who definitely are.
Does a superhero need to have superpowers? Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Batman and his various offspring and so on all imply not.
Does a superhero need to have a distinctive costume? Most do, but as we've seen in comics most characters have a specific look so that the reader can easily identify them, but there are enough superheroes who wear normal clothing as well.
Codenames, secret identity, a moral code, fighting crime or even more vague: a story focused on straight forward fights between heroes and villains? We all can think of examples that fit and examples that don't quite fit.
So basically a superhero is like pornography: I know it when I see it. (and even then people might disagree, as we've seen in the Valliant discussion recently.)
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 6, 2015 20:41:31 GMT -5
I think the Hulk is an even better example of a "superhero" who's motivations are nebulous and hard to pin down given the common usage of the term. I'd have to say that the combination of superpowers and or costumes, coupled with a secret identity or alter ego, and a mentality that puts the lives of others above your own, makes you a superhero. Even the Hulk fits most of these; he has an alter ego, he's willingly risked his own life to save innocents, he has superhuman powers, etc. What makes the Hulk and the Thing unique, like it was pointed out above, is that they have the surface veneer of non-heroic monster characters. (Consequentially, this is probably at the root of why I'm always going to be more of a Marvel guy than DC.)
Back to Thor, this is a character that can easily be used in a way so that he's clearly not a superhero. Just take a look at Walt Simonson's current Ragnarok series. This series is clearly presenting a world that's more high fantasy/sword & sorcery using an undead Thor who isn't functioning like a traditional hero. The Marvel Thor is interesting because his interaction with the modern world, in relation with his mortal superheroic friends, is what makes him a superhero in our eyes. If you've read any of the Kid Thor or Teen Thor stories that've been told over the years, he was presented more as a Conan-like adventure character who often adventured for fun and glory, not necessarily to protect innocents or even Asgard. I also think the fact that he was actively worshiped by the Germanic peoples sets him apart until that practice died away. It would completely change the dynamic if the Norse religion was as prominent and as influential as the Catholic Church, for instance.
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Post by Action Ace on Feb 6, 2015 21:51:59 GMT -5
Holy crap, Dumbo is more of a superhero than Punisher. Not exactly a high bar to clear...  |
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Post by earl on Feb 7, 2015 6:12:22 GMT -5
Even Hulk could be more of a Jeckyll & Hyde horror tale if it were self contained and written a certain way. I think the old 70s Hulk TV show was pretty much exactly that. Hulk is an interesting comic as it really originally was more of a monster comic with a continuing story line. The character is kind of defined by their surroundings. Perhaps one reason Thor lasted as a character was that the comic had two very different settings with the fantasy world Asgard and then on Earth where the guy is this superstar superhero. I think you could say the Krypton based stories for Superman is the alternate background for those comic series, putting the title character in a science fiction future world. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Feb 7, 2015 6:20:29 GMT -5
Really, most "superhero" comics aren't really "superhero" comics. If it didn't have the Marvel logo on it, would Dr. Strange be a superhero? or The Silver Surfer? Even Iron Man lands more squarely in the realm of sci-fi. Batman aside, has any hero gone on patrol looking for muggers since the 1940s? comic book heroes are usually more caught up in their own struggles with each other and with rival super beings, sometimes saving a town, country, or planet in the process, but their protecting people is really a secondary focus.
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Post by marvelmaniac on Feb 7, 2015 7:41:06 GMT -5
Since I am a Silver Age Guy "most" characters fall into 4 categories.
MORTAL
Of a living human being, often in contrast to a divine being) subject to death.
DEMI-GOD
A demigod (or demi-god) is a divine or supernatural being in classical mythology. The term has been used in various ways at different times and can refer to a figure who has attained divine status after death, a minor deity, or a mortal who is the offspring of a god and a human.
COSTUMED HERO
A costumed crime fighter with "developed" human powers instead of "super" powers.
SUPER HERO
A costumed crime fighter with powers beyond those of mortal man
And of course this will bring up more debate on what actually constitutes a "Super Power".
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 7, 2015 8:58:25 GMT -5
From the glossary of my Earth-Two guide:
Super-Hero or -Heroine
A superhuman or mystery man who uses his or her super-powers or skills for law enforcement, rescue work or other socially constructive purposes.
Superhuman
1. A human being possessing one or more super-powers.
2. Generically, any sentient being possessing a super-power, including aliens, androids, elementals, ghosts, gods, immortals, robots, and sorcerers. In its loosest sense, the term may also include non-super-powered mystery men.
Super-power
A physical, mental or magical ability not possessed by a normal human being.
Not applicable in every case, of course, but a place to start the discussion.
Cei-U!
I summon the crib notes!
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Post by robsuperfriend63 on Feb 7, 2015 12:56:05 GMT -5
I think superheroes & superheroines are in the eye of the beholder. I do think Thor set the stage for other super characters to be created.
After all DC & Filmation did do Isis as a superheroine in the 70s.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 12:58:53 GMT -5
You have gods as superheroes long before Thor. The Hurricane back ups in the Golden Age Comics had a super-hero who was son of a god battling Pluto in every story for instance. So drawing from classical Greek, Norse, Egyptian and other mythologies and using them as comic book heroes was old news by the time Marvel produced Thor on the Silver Age.
-M
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Post by gothos on Feb 7, 2015 13:47:23 GMT -5
He's certainly a superhero as the term is understood now; though it is a little redundant for a race of beings (the Asgardians) who are all "super" by mortal standards. What's always fascinated me about Thor is that his mythos (adventures set in Asgard) could easily support a line of books if the market supported it, most of which would read like sword & sorcery. In the original Silver Age stories, though, Thor is a great deal more "super" than his fellows. None of the other Asgardians could go the distance with the Hulk, though Hogun gave it a good try in a late 60s INCREDIBLE HULK issue. |
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Post by gothos on Feb 7, 2015 14:13:19 GMT -5
As several people have pointed out it's difficult to pinpoint what makes Thor a super-hero until and unless you have a clear definition and criteria of what is a super-hero? If there is no consensus or defined parameters of what is a super-hero, you can't make a case for or against Thor (or anyone else for that matter) being a super-hero. If superpowers are part of the equation, then Batman is not a super-hero, if just superscience gadgets and adventures make one a superhero, then you can make a case for JAmes Bond being a super-hero too, so until you lay out a working definition of super-hero, its a question that cannot be answered. First step of any inquiry, define your terms or the inquiry is pointless and unproductive. -M For me the problem is taxonomic: what I'd like to have is a name for the "family" to which superheroes and all kindred types belong: the super-spies, barbarians, space opera crusaders, and so on (but not Dumbo). On my blog I've used the blanket term of "superhero idiom" for all of these generic types, but that name's just a placeholder that could never be employed on a regular basis. Still, I think that one thing that separates Thor from, say, Conan and Elric is that he's primarily oriented upon protecting a community from danger on a regular basis. This seems to distinguish most characters called superheroes, even if they do most of the protecting in mystical dimensions (Doctor Strange) or in outer-space settings (Space Ghost, The Legion). Of course, if that were the only determining factor, no one could consider the Hulk a superhero, and obviously people do. But that may be in part that even though the Hulk often fights for justice by accident-- that is, by blundering into someone else's trouble-- he does have other regular features of his series that can remind one of a normative superhero, like a rogue's gallery of recurring villains. I think that when some fans hesitate to consider various characters as "superheroes" even though they may fit a "bare bones" definition, it's because there's some conflict of generic elements. Zorro and the Two-Gun Kid can't be superheroes 'cause they're Wild West heroes. Thor can't be a superhero because he's a mythological hero. I'm playing around with a book-idea that would demonstrate that these conflicts are more apparent than real, but for now, the arguments go ever on. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 5:46:18 GMT -5
To me he is unique more ways in one ...
According to marvelmaniac - he is a DEMI-GOD; based on the description that this member has provided. According to Cei-U!- he is a super-power; based on the description that this member has provided. According to my own description - he is a mythological hero that far beyond a super-power of the description that Cei-U! has provided for us to use. Now, looking at the three pictures of Donald Blake and Thor transformation - he is also magical in nature - and having said that their should be another category for him, Right? Thor is more than a superhero, matter of fact a very unique one indeed and having said that you can't place him anywhere that marvelmanic, Cei-U!, and I - nor anyone else that it's matter because he stand alone period. I know that I'm rambling here and there - but the question remains is Thor is a Superhero and the answer to that question is that everyone here has the rights to their opinion and having said that - I'm having difficulty answering this question truthfully.I just wanted to share this picture below ... LOL
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Post by marvelmaniac on Feb 8, 2015 11:04:24 GMT -5
Since I am a Silver Age Guy "most" characters fall into 4 categories. MORTAL Of a living human being, often in contrast to a divine being) subject to death. DEMI-GOD A demigod (or demi-god) is a divine or supernatural being in classical mythology. The term has been used in various ways at different times and can refer to a figure who has attained divine status after death, a minor deity, or a mortal who is the offspring of a god and a human. COSTUMED HERO A costumed crime fighter with "developed" human powers instead of "super" powers. SUPER HERO A costumed crime fighter with powers beyond those of mortal man And of course this will bring up more debate on what actually constitutes a "Super Power". FEBRUARY 8th After some thought there are 3 other categories in "Silver Age Marvel" that I left out COSMIC ENTITIES (also referred to as cosmic beings.) They possess power on a stellar, galactic, universal, or even multiversal level, far beyond those of humans or conventional superheroes, and frequently serve some natural function in the universe. MUTANTS A mutant is an organism (usually otherwise human) who possesses a genetic trait called an X-gene that allows the mutant to naturally develop superhuman powers and abilities. ORDINARY JOES Beings with absolutely no powers without the aid of a device or suit. Iron Man, Dr.Doom, Mandarin, etc, As far as Thor being a Super Hero, he is on Earth since he battles evil and protects the planet and its citizens so that does make him a "Hero". Power wise you are lead to believe that since he is Odin's son he is the second most powerful being in Asgard so that also makes him a God according to Norse Mythology. |
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Post by dupersuper on Feb 9, 2015 17:06:25 GMT -5
One of the cool things I like about super heroes is that they encompass so many genres. You've got sci-fi like FF and GL, fantasy like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel/Shazam, noir style stuff like Batman and Moon Knight, westerns like Zorro and Lone Ranger, comedy like JLI and GLA, horror like Swamp Thing and Man Thing, romance like Young Heroes in Love and Love & Capes, war stories like Captain America and Johnny Cannuck, spy stuff like Nick Fury and Suicide Squad...you can do a procedural with Savage Dragon or the GCPD, courtroom drama with Daredevil or She-Hulk...action movie with Punisher, farce with Lobo, satire with American Flagg, parody with Tick, porn with Orgasmo...monsters with Hulk or Man-Bat...psychological drama, family fun, art house psychedelia...characters like Superman and Spidey who walk in several of those worlds...Thor fits right in for me.
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