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Post by gothos on Mar 7, 2015 14:15:37 GMT -5
Regarding longterm development vs instant success, I don't believe a labored over character to have any advantage over one that is immediately functional. After all, Peter himself is well established right from the beginning, with subsequent changes to his character being a natural evolution. Mary Jane went through the same process, having a personality established immediately and experiencing further development over the course of decades. Gwen obviously didn't have that advantage and in fact she had quite an obvious disadvantage. She was created by a man who was reaching a point of artistic burnout, she was defined to fit a certain archetype that MJ would eventually fill (the Veronica as opposed to the Betty) and her creator abandoned her after little development. But that doesn't make Gwen a bad or worse character, it just means Gwen needed more time to become good. The Hulk is one of my favorite characters and it took years of development to make him a good character. I agree with your point about gradual development. We don't have any testimony as to whether Stan or Steve first thought up Gwen, do we? It seems obvious that one of them must have advanced the idea of cooling Peter's relationship with Betty and substituting a new potential girlfriend. Based on Ditko's post-Stan works, I would tend to think that he cared little about the romantic fluctuations of the main character's life, though he understood well how to put across the drama-- and sometimes the comedy-- of teen love. I suppose that if you're saying Stan is more likely to be the one who put forth the basic idea of "new girlfriend," I tend to agree-- and of course, even if it had been Steve's idea, then the concept of Gwen would certainly have been modified through Stan's authority as editor. "Reaching a point of artistic burnout," though? I think Stan still had a bunch of good stories in him at that time, even if his relationships with artists may have been unraveling. To each his own, but I'd say it's more like 1969-70 that Stan starts repeating himself in egregious ways. I remember Back In The Day how I groused about him re-using the old "Peter's jealous of Flash" routine. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 7, 2015 14:34:10 GMT -5
Regarding longterm development vs instant success, I don't believe a labored over character to have any advantage over one that is immediately functional. After all, Peter himself is well established right from the beginning, with subsequent changes to his character being a natural evolution. Mary Jane went through the same process, having a personality established immediately and experiencing further development over the course of decades. Gwen obviously didn't have that advantage and in fact she had quite an obvious disadvantage. She was created by a man who was reaching a point of artistic burnout, she was defined to fit a certain archetype that MJ would eventually fill (the Veronica as opposed to the Betty) and her creator abandoned her after little development. But that doesn't make Gwen a bad or worse character, it just means Gwen needed more time to become good. The Hulk is one of my favorite characters and it took years of development to make him a good character. I agree with your point about gradual development. We don't have any testimony as to whether Stan or Steve first thought up Gwen, do we? It seems obvious that one of them must have advanced the idea of cooling Peter's relationship with Betty and substituting a new potential girlfriend. Based on Ditko's post-Stan works, I would tend to think that he cared little about the romantic fluctuations of the main character's life, though he understood well how to put across the drama-- and sometimes the comedy-- of teen love. I suppose that if you're saying Stan is more likely to be the one who put forth the basic idea of "new girlfriend," I tend to agree-- and of course, even if it had been Steve's idea, then the concept of Gwen would certainly have been modified through Stan's authority as editor. "Reaching a point of artistic burnout," though? I think Stan still had a bunch of good stories in him at that time, even if his relationships with artists may have been unraveling. To each his own, but I'd say it's more like 1969-70 that Stan starts repeating himself in egregious ways. I remember Back In The Day how I groused about him re-using the old "Peter's jealous of Flash" routine. The only testimony regarding who created Gwen is the testimony that by the time of her first appearance Ditko was working solo and was handing the pages in without even speaking to Stan, who would write dialog based on the notes Ditko included with the pages. Ditko might not have been as into the soapy romantic drama as Stan but he understood it was essential to the character and pursued it independently, albeit with a much more pessimistic edge to it (after all, it was only when Ditko took over fulltime plotting that Peter's relationship with Betty went from unstable to doomed). |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 8, 2015 10:57:21 GMT -5
Amazing Spider-Man #45 (February 1967)  “Spidey Smashes Out!” Script: Stan (The Man) Lee Art: John (Ring-A-Ding) Romita Letters: Sam Rosen Web Untangling: Irving Forbush Cover: John Romita Summary: Still wrapped up, Spidey busts up a truck hijacking. Even with one arm he can beat them handily (har har), although he knows the Lizard is a whole other challenge. He searches for the creature by running along weblines instead of swinging due to his arm. Martha Connors is awoken in bed by the Lizard breaking into Curt’s lab. Unaware that he himself is Curt Connors, he searches through his notes to try and figure out the lizard formula (with which to create an army of brilliant humanoid reptiles) but his reptilian brain can’t understand the science lingo. He decides to track Curt down and force the formula out of him. The ruckus wakes up Billy and Martha tells him it was the wind. At the Bugle Foswell is preparing to become Patch and track down Peter when Jameson assigns him to investigate a Lizard citing. Jameson yells at Ned and Betty, who are planning their wedding, for slacking but they’re both on coffee break. Slapping his head in frustration over the entitlement of youngsters, Jonah leaves them to their business. Betty tells Ned that they have to invite Peter. Peter is currently trying to figure out what to do with his busted arm. He tries to hide it by keeping his hand in his pocket but the pain is too much. He realizes there's no option but to wear a sling and hope nobody makes the connection to Spider-Man’s wounded arm. After all, he can justify it by saying he fell off his bike. At school Flash immediately asks if Peter is trying to make them think he’s Spidey but he’s just joking. Flash leaves to get coffee with Gwen, who is planning a farewell party for him. Gwen asked Harry to invite Peter to the party and Peter wonders why she didn’t invite him herself. Harry says it’s because he’s been seeing so much of Mary Jane that he hasn’t been around much. Harry also tells Peter that his father has offered him a part-time job at his plant. Peter has too much going on right now but he appreciates it. He thinks about Gwen and how Mary Jane always seems to pop up between them. On her vacation Aunt May reads the news about the Lizard’s return and isn’t worried, as Peter is a homebody. In reality he is out swinging and looking for the Lizard. After hours of searching he checks the zoo and sees a sign for a travelling reptile exhibit that is on its way to Philadelphia. He swings to the railyard. Sure enough, Lizard is there and they fight. Lizard wallops Spidey but Spidey won’t stay down so he tears open a train car to release a horde of reptiles. The fight is briefly interrupted by Mary Jane. She’s heading out to the Frenzy Ville A Go-Go and Mrs. Watson asks her if she wants to walk her over to Peter’s house, as she has a pot of vegetable soup for him. MJ doesn’t mind and Mrs. Watson says it’s nice that they’re friends. MJ admits that Peter is a little square but besides that she likes him quite a bit and she reckons he could be a real swinger if he let himself go. Peter, of course, isn’t home and Mrs. Watson worries a bit but MJ tells her that he walks and breathes so it’s perfectly normal for him to be out at night. Anyways, as Spidey fights them off (even using a croc as a whip!) the train starts moving and Lizard climbs aboard, wanting to take his pets back to the swampland so they can recruit more of his army. Spidey hops on after him and they fight on top of the train as Spidey figures out how to beat them. He finds the refrigerator car and lures Lizard inside. The cold-blooded villain slows down and eventually enters hibernation. Spidey webs him up in a cocoon, pulls the emergency brake line and catches a passing train back to New York. He takes the Lizard to Connors’ lab and works up an antidote using Connors’ notes. He forces the serum down the Lizard’s throat just as he starts to warm up and when Martha and Billy enter the room they find their beloved patriarch. Spidey leaves and their dialog balloons are left blank so the ever-so-talented readers can fill them in. He changes into his street clothes and is spotted by Harry and MJ, who were just driving by. They offer him a lift but he doesn’t have far to go. As they drive off he thinks about how little MJ seems to care about him. She’s as pretty as she is shallow and her constant upbeat attitude is starting to annoy him. He realizes that he never developed the last batch of Lizard pictures (even though he’d gone back and gotten his camera) and that by now they’re old news. The next payment for Aunt May’s vacation is coming up, he’s broke, he’s behind on his studies and he has to worry about what Aunt May will say when she sees his sprained arm. As he reaches his front door Mrs. Watson spots him. She brought him some food and asks about his arm. He tells her he sprained it on his bike and just has to rest. She reminds me that Aunt May worries about him and leaves. This upsets him so much that he doesn’t even eat his dinner. He angrily throws his costume across the room and says that all of his problems are caused by him being Spider-Man. If he was just a normal kid he could date MJ regularly, stay up to date on his studies and take a science job with Norman Osborn. He wonders if he remains Spider-Man out of a sense of superiority or if by this point it’s so much a part of him that he can never lose it. Back in Manhattan the Connors family wishes there was a way they could repay Spider-Man but the idea is silly, since he must have everything a man could wish for. Observations: I have to say, the Lizard was pretty poorly utilized this arc. He came back with the same scheme as last time except this time it takes twice as long to resolve and he is nowhere near as effective. In ASM #6 he really was on the verge of releasing his lizard formula in the swamp. This time he can’t even figure out how to make the serum and runs off on a snipe hunt. In his first appearance he was able to dominate Spider-Man with just a few alligators as back-up but here Spidey is able to hold his own with a bum arm. And since the Lizard is nothing more than a megalomaniac he isn’t at all interesting to watch. Martha and Billy’s worry feels real but it isn’t enough. The highlight of the issue is Spidey’s fight with him atop the train and defeating the Lizard by tricking him into a refrigerator car. Spidey beats his enemy with his brain. This is the second villain in a row bested this way and I hope the trend continues. The most fun parts of the Romita run so far have been the soap opera scenes with Peter and his peers but there's not much of that here. We just get an update on the three friends: Gwen is now dating Flash, Harry offers Peter a job with his Dad and Peter starts to get sick of MJ. But Gwen doesn’t even appear in this issue and the scene with Harry comes a little out of left field, since they’d been social acquaintances but they didn’t really seem like real friends. Of course, we never saw Peter and Betty officially get together either so there's that. The MJ scenes are the most interesting. So far she’s been nothing but fun, peppy, flirty, etc. and it’s beginning to bug Pete. It makes sense since Peter was mostly been a very reserved man with conservative manners and has only recently started to come out of his shell. MJ is something he has never experienced and after spending years with the timid and mousy Betty Brant she’s a little overwhelming for the poor guy. It also appears that MJ is firmly ingratiated into the ESU circle of friends, now socializing with Harry on her own without Peter. I heard that Stan was pretty against Peter hooking up with MJ, preferring Gwen, and this anti-MJ turn to the dialog follows that line of thinking. I also don’t buy the excuse that photos of the Lizard taken last issue wouldn’t sell, since so far there are no pictures of the Lizard and even Jonah would jump at them. When it comes to action scenes Romita is really starting to come into his own. He’s utilizing much larger panels in 2-4 panel layouts that open up the book visually and provide more eye candy than Ditko’s very dense work. Overall the issue isn’t great. It’s not bad, the fight scene makes it worth the 12 cents, but between the lackluster villain and the minimal presence of the supporting cast it’s strictly mediocre. 3/5Old plot updates: What is Norman Osborn scheming?Will Gwen and Peter hook up? - By this point Peter is seriously jonesing for Gwen but she seems to given up on him in favor of Flash. Is Peter's spider sense failing?Will Peter meet Mary Jane?Where is Betty?Who is the Green Goblin?Other notes: - At the end of last issue the left arm was ripped off of Spidey’s costume and left in the street. Here it’s restored, even though his injured arm would make sewing a new one almost impossible. If he has a spare it hasn’t been mentioned since Aunt May got rid of the last one. - Aunt May is said to have suffered a recent illness. This proves that real time is pretty much dead, since she last fell ill during the Master Planner saga over a year ago. - Connor has no way of knowing it but he has the solution to Spider-Man’s problem: The cure for Aunt May’s illness would remove Spidey’s powers. - Stan makes a couple bloopers here. The big one is referring to the Lizard as the Scorpion. Thats a really weird mistake not just because the Lizard is in the issue but because the Scorpion hasn’t featured for over a year, so why would he be on Stan’s mind? - Maybe Stan realized the Lizard wasn’t too hot this time around, since he doesn’t show up for two and a half years. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 8, 2015 11:24:51 GMT -5
Maybe Stan realized the Lizard wasn’t too hot this time around, since he doesn’t show up for two and a half years. In the comics perhaps, but the Lizard is featured prominently in the 1st season of the '67 Spider-Man cartoon, where he is voiced by the wonderful Gillie Fenwick, an English actor who did a good bit of voice work for Marvel in the 60s. It was this portrayal that made the Lizard one of my favorite villains as a kid. At this link, you can hear a sample of Fenwick's Lizard:
www.behindthevoiceactors.com/Gillie-Fenwick/
The Lizard was one of only two Marvel villains (along with The Green Goblin) introduced as part of Mego's World's Greatest Superheroes line in 1974. Very faithful to the source, this is one of Mego's best figures, IMHO:
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 8, 2015 12:16:59 GMT -5
Maybe Stan realized the Lizard wasn’t too hot this time around, since he doesn’t show up for two and a half years. In the comics perhaps, but the Lizard is featured prominently in the 1st season of the '67 Spider-Man cartoon, where he is voiced by the wonderful Gillie Fenwick, an English actor who did a good bit of voice work for Marvel in the 60s. It was this portrayal that made the Lizard one of my favorite villains as a kid. At this link, you can hear a sample of Fenwick's Lizard:
www.behindthevoiceactors.com/Gillie-Fenwick/
The Lizard was one of only two Marvel villains (along with The Green Goblin) introduced as part of Mego's World's Greatest Superheroes line in 1974. Very faithful to the source, this is one of Mego's best figures, IMHO:
The Lizard's first appearance on that show was a pretty faithful adaptation of his debut story. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 8, 2015 12:27:35 GMT -5
Gwen is now dating Flash […] I heard that Stan was pretty against Peter hooking up with MJ, preferring Gwen, and this anti-MJ turn to the dialog follows that line of thinking. Gwen dating Flash? I know they were seen together, but as part of the jealousy game, nothing more. About Stan and MJ, I think MJ was more Romita than anything else, and it makes sense, because of the two female characters, MJ was the one he created from scratch. Gwen had some baggage he had to assimilate, to make her a character of his own. Lee probably wanted Gwen to be the girlfriend, but she wasn't ready at the beginning of the Romita run, so they used MJ in the interim. This is how I read it, at least. Whether they discussed the details, or Stan had to correct the course of the events trough the dialog, I don't know. Gwen doesn't appear in ASM #45, but her relationship with Peter will change here anyway. Harry, who's considered himself his friend, since the first scene reproduced in page 2 of this thread, invites Peter to Gwen's party. This reveals the fact that his relationship with Gwen isn't romantic in nature, or at least, he's known her long enough to have cleared up that possibility at this point. In this same issue, we see Harry alone, for the first time, with MJ. This levels the playing field. Neither Gwen, nor MJ are really committed. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 8, 2015 12:39:21 GMT -5
Gwen is now dating Flash […] I heard that Stan was pretty against Peter hooking up with MJ, preferring Gwen, and this anti-MJ turn to the dialog follows that line of thinking. Gwen dating Flash? I know they were seen together, but as part of the jealousy game, nothing more. About Stan and MJ, I think MJ was more Romita than anything else, and it makes sense, because of the two female characters, MJ was the one he created from scratch. Gwen had some baggage he had to assimilate, to make her a character of his own. Lee probably wanted Gwen to be the girlfriend, but she wasn't ready at the beginning of the Romita run, so they used MJ in the interim. This is how I read it, at least. Whether they discussed the details, or Stan had to correct the course of the events trough the dialog, I don't know. Gwen doesn't appear in ASM #45, but her relationship with Peter will change here anyway. Harry, who's considered himself his friend, since the first scene reproduced in page 2 of this thread, invites Peter to Gwen's party. This reveals the fact that his relationship with Gwen isn't romantic in nature, or at least, he's known her long enough to have cleared up that possibility at this point. In this same issue, we see Harry alone, for the first time, with MJ. This levels the playing field. Neither Gwen, nor MJ are really committed. It's hard to say who is dating who because in Spidey's world commitment only seems to exist when theres a ring involved. But she spends time with Flash and his throwing him a party so I think it's safe to say they've got something going on, even if it's just casual. And I think Stan was just really hip on the love triangle dynamic. It was there with Betty and Liz but in that case it was all about miscommunication and a means for misery. Here it's played more as an Archie situation, with MJ having fun with Peter while Peter develops a major crush on Gwen, who remains aloof (even we aren't privvy to her thoughts). Gwen's development is starting to build some steam while MJ, who a few issues ago was a dream girl, is beginning to lose her charm after the initial shock of her reveal. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 8, 2015 13:20:04 GMT -5
The Lizard's first appearance on that show was a pretty faithful adaptation of his debut story. One notable omission was Connors' amputated limb, probably considered too much for a children's cartoon. Instead, his serum was intended to cure "Swamp Fever." |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 8, 2015 14:23:28 GMT -5
The Lizard's first appearance on that show was a pretty faithful adaptation of his debut story. One notable omission was Connors' amputated limb, probably considered too much for a children's cartoon. Instead, his serum was intended to cure "Swamp Fever." Heh, I never actually noticed that before! I also never noticed that the episode takes its title from the first Lee/Romita Lizard yarn but in the episode himself he goes by Lizard Man. |
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Post by gothos on Mar 8, 2015 18:13:47 GMT -5
I agree with your point about gradual development. We don't have any testimony as to whether Stan or Steve first thought up Gwen, do we? It seems obvious that one of them must have advanced the idea of cooling Peter's relationship with Betty and substituting a new potential girlfriend. Based on Ditko's post-Stan works, I would tend to think that he cared little about the romantic fluctuations of the main character's life, though he understood well how to put across the drama-- and sometimes the comedy-- of teen love. I suppose that if you're saying Stan is more likely to be the one who put forth the basic idea of "new girlfriend," I tend to agree-- and of course, even if it had been Steve's idea, then the concept of Gwen would certainly have been modified through Stan's authority as editor. "Reaching a point of artistic burnout," though? I think Stan still had a bunch of good stories in him at that time, even if his relationships with artists may have been unraveling. To each his own, but I'd say it's more like 1969-70 that Stan starts repeating himself in egregious ways. I remember Back In The Day how I groused about him re-using the old "Peter's jealous of Flash" routine. The only testimony regarding who created Gwen is the testimony that by the time of her first appearance Ditko was working solo and was handing the pages in without even speaking to Stan, who would write dialog based on the notes Ditko included with the pages. Ditko might not have been as into the soapy romantic drama as Stan but he understood it was essential to the character and pursued it independently, albeit with a much more pessimistic edge to it (after all, it was only when Ditko took over fulltime plotting that Peter's relationship with Betty went from unstable to doomed). So were you saying Ditko was the one getting close to burnout? I'm so used to hearing things like that about Stan, that's who I assumed you meant. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 8, 2015 18:36:17 GMT -5
The only testimony regarding who created Gwen is the testimony that by the time of her first appearance Ditko was working solo and was handing the pages in without even speaking to Stan, who would write dialog based on the notes Ditko included with the pages. Ditko might not have been as into the soapy romantic drama as Stan but he understood it was essential to the character and pursued it independently, albeit with a much more pessimistic edge to it (after all, it was only when Ditko took over fulltime plotting that Peter's relationship with Betty went from unstable to doomed). So were you saying Ditko was the one getting close to burnout? I'm so used to hearing things like that about Stan, that's who I assumed you meant. Yeah, I think Ditko was getting burned out. At least at Marvel, anyway. I think Ditko leaving actually gave Stan a kick in the ass and I think it's only after Ditko left that Stan really started to shine. Romita collaboration worked more in Stan's favor I think, as Romita worked at the office and said that Stan was working with him to plot stories over the course of production. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 9, 2015 11:03:06 GMT -5
The Amazing Spider-Man #46 (March 1967)  “The Sinister Shocker” Script: Stan Lee Art: John Romita Letters: Sam Rosen Cover: John Romita Summary: A still-crippled Spider-Man is jostled from a wall by heavy vibrations. He sets up his camera and slips inside the building to investigate. He finds the Shocker, a criminal in a yellow quilted bodysuit with wrist mounted gadgets that fire heavy vibrations. He used these weapons to break into a safe and now he’s using them to kick Spidey’s ass. Spidey is unable to fight back because the gadgets also vibrate his body and deflect Spidey’s punches. He leaves Spidey banged up in a pile of rubble. Peter changes into his civvies and checks his arm. It’s almost healed but he wants to keep bandaged a little while longer. He starts walking to the Bugle to sell his new photos when Harry Osborn pulls up. He offers him a lift and also offers him an apartment. He’s finally convinced his Dad to get him an apartment in the city, all expenses paid, and it has a second bedroom. Peter would love to but he has to check with Aunt May first. As he drops Peter off he tells him they ought to take MJ and Gwen on a double date. This throws Peter for a bit of a loop and he wonders why he’s bothered by Harry seeing Gwen when he’s seeing MJ? Foswell spots him in the foyer and prepares to follow Peter when he leaves. Peter shows Jonah the photos of the Shocker and he loves them so much Peter is able to force him to write his check personally. When he leaves to meet Aunt May at Penn station Patch follows him. In his loft hideout Shocker remembers his origin: A safecracker and two-time loser, he got busted when guards heard him blow the lock off a safe. In the prison workshop he designed a vibration device that could silently open a safe door. He spent months building the weapons and used them to escape, although the feedback they produced as so strong it nearly killed him. He built a protective uniform and battery belt to make the device portable, becoming the Shocker. At the station Aunt May is alarmed by Peter’s injury but is more worried about her big news: She’s moving out with Anna Watson. It takes a moment for Peter to realize what she’s said but he’s delighted. He tells her he’ll move in with Harry Osborn and that the money from the house will let her live quite comfortably. Back at home Anna and MJ are waiting for them. They tell Anna the good news and Peter takes MJ out for a celebration at the Silver Spoon. Flash, Harry and Gwen are all there. Gwen is dancing up a storm (wearing very trendy clothes) and MJ isn’t particularly impressed. The preparations for Flash’s farewell party are done, they’re just waiting for his induction date. MJ loves a man in uniform and Peter wonders if she’d like a Spidey costume. One kid mentions Spidey getting beaten by the Shocker but Flash thinks the photos are fake (is Jameson still honoring his agreement to not credit Peter?). Pete asks MJ if she wants ice cream but she’s too busy dancing and Peter can’t join her with his busted arm. He tells Harry that he’s moving in and heads home to pack and look for Shocker. Peter wonders why he’s not satisfied with MJ and decides to do some web swinging to clear his head. He doesn’t notice Patch watching him from around the corner and heads into the alley to change, just out of sight. Once changed his spider sense starts tingling and he realizes Patch is following him. Foswell realizes that Peter IS Spider-Man but before he can do anything with that info he hears a conversation from down the alley. Spider-Man is telling Peter about his plans to fight the Shocker and confirms that he gets 50% of the photo money. Peter is able to disguise his voice with his mask to make it sound like two people. To finish the illusion he uses his web to pull his Spidey costume into the sky. Foswell buys it and is satisfied with having found out Peter’s secret. Peter changes back into his costume and finally removes his sling. He wonders where to start looking and sees a cop going to a call box to report an attack at the Federal Reserve, which is only a few blocks away. He finds Shocker there and they get into a fight that wrecks the place. Spidey is able to defeat him by webbing his thumbs back. Unable to activate his wrist blasters Shocker is easily beaten and restrained. He grabs his camera and leaves. The next morning he wakes up before his alarm goes off. He’s just too excited to finally move out. He packs his bags (all of his belongings apparently fit in two suitcases) and goes downstairs to find Aunt May weeping. He reassures her that they’re not saying goodbye, they’re just changing addresses. She reminds him to dress warm and stay away from roughnecks and gives every other bit of smotherly advice she has before Peter leaves. The new apartment turns out to be pretty slick. But when Harry leaves to run an errand he finds himself depressed. He wonders if being Spider-Man has cost him his capacity for happiness. Observations: Big improvement over the last issue. The second generation of villains gets a new addition in the Shocker. I’ve never been a big Shocker fan and he’s a bit of a joke but he works pretty well here. The design is quirky and his powers are unique, since the only other villains to utilize projectile weapons have been Electro (not seen in almost three years) and Green Goblin (retired… for now). He’s legitimately powerful and in a more interesting way than the Rhino and Colonel Jupiter’s generic super strength. The best moment of the issue is easily Peter leaving home. A major milestone in the character’s life, we should now be free of Aunt May’s smothering. Even though Aunt May hasn’t been a very good character (or even a character at all really, more like a walking plot device of terminal illness) it’s still touching to see their goodbye as she makes one last effort to nurture him. Peter moving out doesn’t just mean independence, it signifies Peter’s entire world changing. He’s now living in Manhattan and the swinging sixties are starting to move into full gear, with MJ’s way of speaking really starting to infect the entire cast. It kind of takes away part of what made MJ special but it’s some pretty funny stuff. And dig those goofy dance moves! Gwen is really starting to pull away from the Ditko interpretation, now wearing more modern fashion and having a more easygoing outlook. It’s also quite possible (and even likely) that she is trying to imitate MJ to impress Peter. The little plot with Foswell is resolved. Yes it’s silly that Foswell would be convinced by a costume hanging from a thread and yes Foswell should have made the immediate connection between Peter and Spidey’s busted arms and no Peter faking a conversation without himself shouldn’t fool anybody but I still like this scene. Overall we’ve got an inventive new villain, a major Peter Parker milestone and the coming of the sixties. Not revolutionary but a good, dependable Spider-Man comic. 4/5What is Norman Osborn scheming?Will Gwen and Peter hook up? - Peter is becoming even more infatuated with her but she’s now dating Harry, at least casually. Is Peter's spider sense failing?Will Peter meet Mary Jane?Where is Betty?Who is the Green Goblin?Other notes: - The four year old corner box featuring a very sloppily drawn Spidey head has been replaced by a much cleaner attempt from (I assume) John Romita. - After seven straight issues of multi-part stories this is the first standalone issue of the Romita run. - Jonah calls Peter a shylock when he asks for payment. Shylock was the villain Shakespeare’s “The Merchant of Venice” and entered the public lexicon as a term for a loan shark. Today it is seen as an anti-semitic slur but considering the time period, Stan’s idolization of Shakespeare and his own Jewish heritage I think it’s unlikely he meant it as such. - Peter is able to walk from the Daily Bugle to Penn Station. Penn Station was recently reopened as a completely subterranean station located under Madison Square Garden, which at this point was still under construction. Giving Peter 10 minutes to get from the Bugle to the station I’m going to put the Bugle south of 42nd street, north of 21st street, east of 10th avenue and west of Madison avenue. - Aunt May’s vacation was for a couple weeks so this issue doesn’t take place long after #44. - Foswell calls himself a jackass. I guess in 1967 this wasn’t considered profanity or else the CCA wouldn’t have printed it. - The Federal Reserve of New York is located in Lower Manhattan (specifically the Financial District) which means the Silver Spoon is also in the area, possibly in Greenwich Village. - After 45 issues Peter has ditched his classic outfit of blue suit, yellow sweater vest and red tie. He now favors a casual yellow jacket without the tie. - In the Spider’s Web Stan explains that the decision regarding Peter’s aging has been made: He and his peers will continue to age, as the public has demanded, but they will be aging at a slower rate. Think of it as hibernation in the month between issues. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 9, 2015 11:21:54 GMT -5
Amazing Spider-Man #46 (March 1967) I think I read this issue in the old Origins of Marvel Comics volume. I always liked the Shocker (though I don't know that I'd call him vile...) |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 9, 2015 12:26:23 GMT -5
Gwen is really starting to pull away from the Ditko interpretation, now wearing more modern fashion and having a more easygoing outlook. It’s also quite possible (and even likely) that she is trying to imitate MJ to impress Peter. Peter is becoming even more infatuated with her but she’s now dating Harry, at least casually. Peter arrives with MJ but, are they still dating? Gwen asks Harry to join her, but I don't think much has to be read into this, either. There's even who considers Flash to be Gwen's partner at the time. I just don't see that. The way I read it, this was open season for everybody. The first version of the headband is gone, and she is shown to be nothing of a wall-flower. Curiously, this Peter gets, when it wasn't as evident as other things he had been missing. More than anything, it looks like Stan's way of introducing this new aspect of her personality without wanting to admit it was new. I'm not saying it contradicts the character previously depicted, but maybe he was afraid readers could voice a different opinion. |
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Post by gothos on Mar 9, 2015 16:04:37 GMT -5
So were you saying Ditko was the one getting close to burnout? I'm so used to hearing things like that about Stan, that's who I assumed you meant. Yeah, I think Ditko was getting burned out. At least at Marvel, anyway. I think Ditko leaving actually gave Stan a kick in the ass and I think it's only after Ditko left that Stan really started to shine. Romita collaboration worked more in Stan's favor I think, as Romita worked at the office and said that Stan was working with him to plot stories over the course of production. That's a refreshing point of view. Though the differences between the priorities of Stan and Steve produced the superior work, Stan and John were more sympatico and arguably produced work that was closer to Stan's vision of superheroic fun. And I'd certainly agree that Ditko, apart from his business disagreements with Marvel, was getting tired of Stan's-- and Marvel's-- brand of fun. About two years after leaving Marvel, Ditko produced the ultra-serious MYSTERIOUS SUSPENSE #1 for Charlton. Ditko wasn't without a sense of humor, but his serious efforts went in a direction Marvel wouldn't have cared to explore at the time. Jumping back to SPIDER ANNUAL #3, it is peculiar that Thor and Iron Man are treated like continuing members, when Stan himself is the one who phased them out. However, there's one thing that argues Stan being pretty closely involved with the plotting: the fact that all through the story, the Wasp continually demonstrates hostility toward Spidey. This was totally in line with the characters' previous meeting in a GIANT-MAN story, and the dialogue even repeats that story's idea that "wasps and spiders have a natural antipathy toward each other." (Actually, if you've heard what certain wasps do to certain spiders, Spidey ought to be the one with the automatic hostility toward Wasp.) Anyway, I find it unlikely that Romita-- swell guy though he is-- was keeping diligent track of the various Marvel characters' attitudes toward one another. It's likely Stan remembered the business from the Giant-Man tale, whether he wrote it or just edited it, and told Romita to incorporate that attitude. The other Avengers' attitudes don't stand out, except that Hawkeye initially likes Spidey's outlaw image and later gets torqued at the hero. The possibility occurs to me that Stan wanted to make Spidey's Avengers audition a big deal, and so he may've temporarily added in Iron Man and Thor to give the event a sense of gravitas. That's just speculation, though. |
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