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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 14, 2015 5:49:58 GMT -5
I was less bothered by the retcon and perhaps even more impressed by the character work. The Pete/Gwen/MJ dynamic. Strong character work for Betty and Flash. The shaking of hands between Peter and Flash. And I think the issue marks Romita coming into his own. This college-aged soap opera with beautiful people is what he excels at and it shows. Plus we get the first hints of something which will define decades of Spider-Man comics. That even with the Green Goblin forever defeated, its shadow and legacy somehow haunt Peter's life. I think the strengths of this issue far outweigh concerns about Kraven. (I gave it 4.3/6) I'm with you on this one. Absolutely, this is probably the best interpretation of the female cast, by Romita, ever. Gwen and MJ simply look stunning. That would be an underlying plot for years, and this is the first taste. I'm closer to crazy, when it comes to the rating, a 5/10. I basically enjoyed issues 47-49, it's #50 which I'll have to raise a little, now. Damn, redoing the graph is a pain in the tuchas! |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 14, 2015 11:55:08 GMT -5
I have a much higher opinion of this issue than you. Though our comments seem to be in sync. It's just a question of focus. I was less bothered by the retcon and perhaps even more impressed by the character work. The Pete/Gwen/MJ dynamic. Strong character work for Betty and Flash. The shaking of hands between Peter and Flash. And I think the issue marks Romita coming into his own. This college-aged soap opera with beautiful people is what he excels at and it shows. In art and writing, Peter is no longer the awkward nerd of the Ditko years, bullied by Flash. They are all adults, comfortable in their own bodies. Plus we get the first hints of something which will define decades of Spider-Man comics. That even with the Green Goblin forever defeated, its shadow and legacy somehow haunt Peter's life. I think the strengths of this issue far outweigh concerns about Kraven. (I gave it 4.3/6) Honestly, if it didn't have the retcon I'd probably have given it a 5/5, just because of how great the character work was. It really does feel like the turning point in the series after a year of transitional issues. But I have little tolerance for dirty retcons, even a minor one involving a minor villain. I'm with you on this one. Absolutely, this is probably the best interpretation of the female cast, by Romita, ever. Gwen and MJ simply look stunning. That would be an underlying plot for years, and this is the first taste. I'm closer to crazy, when it comes to the rating, a 5/10. I basically enjoyed issues 47-49, it's #50 which I'll have to raise a little, now. Damn, redoing the graph is a pain in the tuchas! That shot is a great example of how subtle yet powerful the changes to Gwen's design were. Here is Gwen of #47 next to Gwen of #48 in identical poses:  The Old Gwen has a prominent widow's peak, very silky hair and narrow cat-like eyes. The New Gwen has bangs covering her widow's peak, softer bouncy hair and wider eyes. John just had to add a few new touches to the Ditko model and there she is. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 14, 2015 12:56:19 GMT -5
The Amazing Spider-Man #51 (August 1967)  “In The Clutches Of… The Kingpin!” Script: Stan Lee Pencils: John Romita Inks: Mickey Demeo Letters: Sam Rosen Cover: John Romita Summary: The Kingpin smashes a miniature model of the city and proclaims the city to be his, as all of the city’s gangsters have agreed to his terms. His first order of business is to silence J. Jonah Jameson, as Jameson has been running exposes on the Kingpin’s operations. He sends a few men to the Bugle and sends the rest out to rob gas stations, a test to see how well they operate. Spidey manages to bust up one of these robberies but one of the leading men, Big Turk, escapes and the police interrupt his attempt to interrogate the rest. At his lair the Kingpin decides to make use of Foswell’s talents. He retrieves him from his cell and talks business. After all, it would be stupid to let a criminal with Foswell’s experience be wasted. Before they can talk turkey Big Turk busts in and demands an explanation for Spider-Man’s reappearance. Kingpin’s right-hand man, Flint, offers to take care of them but Kingpin would rather battle them personally. It turns out Kingpin is not fat but is actually extremely muscular, which is how he was able to gain his position in the first place. Kingpin mops the floor with the mooks and isn’t too alarmed by the news of Spider-Man’s return. The more pressing matter is what to use Foswell for, and it turns out he’ll be the best way to silence Jameson. Jameson is currently freaking out in his office over Foswell’s disappearance during the crime wave (since he’s the crime reporter). Robbie Robertson suggests replacing him with Ned Leeds and Jameson does just that. Peter also shows up and Jameson starts feeding him humble pie but the tables are turned when Peter hands over photos of Spidey’s return, which Jameson is more than happy to buy. With money in his pocket he hops on his bike and tries to think of ideas on how to find the Kingpin. He ends up riding right past the Silver Spoon (or some other teenage hangout) and with it MJ, Gwen and Harry. MJ is bummed that he won’t be able to give her a lift home but Gwen tells her she and Harry will drive her. MJ teases Gwen about being bothered by MJ and Peter being alone together but Harry points out that Gwen is currently dating him. MJ says that it’s just because Peter didn’t ask her first and Harry thinks shes joking so MJ asks Gwen if it’s a joke and she refuses to answer. Peter spots four men heading into a private club and they set off his spider sense. He investigates and it turns out to be Flint and three thugs shaking down the proprietor. Spidey swings in through the window but they hit him with a grenade and escape. As they leave Spidey tags Flint with a tracer. The ceiling starts to cave in and he holds it up while the patrons escape. He heads off to find the tracer. Jameson is working late at the Bugle when four thugs blindfold him and put him in a car at gunpoint. At the hideout the Kingpin tells him to stop reporting on the crime wave. Jameson tells him to stuff it and Kingpin tells Foswell to make Jameson aware of the severity of the situation. Kingpin referred to him by name to ensure he can’t betray him and go back to the Bugle. Foswell advises Jameson to do what he’s told as Flint comes in the office saying they killed Spidey. Flint is an idiot, since Spidey has followed them to the penthouse. He shines his signal in the window and the thugs go looking for him on the balcony. Spidey webs them up but the Kingpin proves to be a greater challenge. While not immune to Spidey’s strength he is formidable enough to endure it and even though Spidey destroys his disintegrator cane he is still knocked out by gas from the Kingpin’s tie pin. Spider-Man is finally defeated and Jameson wishes it hadn’t happened like this as Foswell wonders what will happen next. Observations: After all of last issue’s drama this one is much more straightforward. The Kingpin proves to be an improvement over both the Big Man and the Crime-Master, as he actually has the physical capability to back up his ambitions without relying on the Enforcers or the blackmailing the Green Goblin. His actual plan is questionable. His goal is to run the mob like a C.E.O. would run a business but the means through which he does this are left hazy. He’s a really tough guy with some gadgets so he was able to take control of the entire city? I believe part of this vagueness is due to the C.C.A. forbidding the detailed depiction of crime (“No comics shall explicitly present the unique details and methods of a crime.”) but I also think a lot of it is due to the still shady nature of the Mafia. The syndicate had been exposed in 1957 (The Appalachian Summit referenced last issue) and Joe Valachi spilled the beans on the Mafia in 1963 but this was still a pre-Godfather world and the best point of reference people had for a crime boss was Al Capone smuggling booze. It wasn’t until The Godfather was published in 1969 (almost 18 months from now) that the organization, culture and archetypes of the Mafia really became part of public consciousness. So right now it’s OK for Kingpin to be the somewhat generic thug he is here, who is said to be a smarter crook than he actually appears to be. Surprisingly, Foswell proves to be the more interesting crook this issue. He’s gone back over the edge and is quite firmly a criminal again, although he does show some concern for Jameson’s life. After being back for so long it’s nice that they’re actually doing something major with his character again. Aside from the Kingpin there are few other developments here. MJ mercilessly humiliates poor schmuck Harry and Gwen responds by being bashful rather than directly confronting MJ like the old ice queen version would have. And for one panel we get an unnamed Robbie Robertson at the Bugle. Other than it’s pretty much all action. There are three separate fight scenes: Spidey at the gas station, Spidey at the club and Spidey at the Kingpin’s penthouse. There are eleven pages of Spidey in action, plus another page of the Kingpin brawling with some of his minions. 12 out of 20 spent on action is very high for this series and it was probably a bit of a palate cleanser after the very thoughtful previous issue. Overall it’s nowhere near as grand as the last issue but what is? The Kingpin proves to be a much more formidable foe than either the Big Man or the Crime-Master and there's lots of great Jazzy John action. 4/5Other notes: - First appearance of Joe “Robbie” Robertson, the first black character in the cast. - The spider tracer appears to function off of spider sense now. - Spidey turns five! |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 14, 2015 13:38:59 GMT -5
The Kingpin proves to be an improvement over both the Big Man and the Crime-Master, as he actually has the physical capability to back up his ambitions without relying on the Enforcers or the blackmailing the Green Goblin. So right now it’s OK for Kingpin to be the somewhat generic thug he is here, who is said to be a smarter crook than he actually appears to be. MJ mercilessly humiliates poor schmuck Harry 12 out of 20 spent on action is very high for this series and it was probably a bit of a palate cleanser after the very thoughtful previous issue. Does he? I'm of the opinion that Spidey should mop the floor with him, like he did in Back In Black. That's the key to the character and his eventual revival, they said he was smart, but his deeds spoke otherwise, for over a decade. That little thing? That's nothing, wait for ASM #97. It's clear they wanted to compensate, for the last issue's lack of action. |
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Post by coke & comics on Mar 14, 2015 14:34:11 GMT -5
Kingpin is portrayed is physically powerful here, but I never really appreciated him in Spider-Man comics. I much prefer Miller's criminal emperor take on the character. I don't think Stan ever really knew what to do with him.
To my mind the first good usage of Kingpin in Spidey comics will come decades later in Ultimate.
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 14, 2015 15:56:28 GMT -5
Kingpin was the first Spidey villain I encountered in the comics in a Marvel Tales issue that reprinted #84 of this series.
Since I've read one Daredevil comic, I still think of him as a Spidey villain.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 14, 2015 16:05:02 GMT -5
Does he? I'm of the opinion that Spidey should mop the floor with him, like he did in Back In Black. Here they prove pretty evenly matched and while it doesn't have much sense it's nice to have a crime boss who doesn't have to hide behind his thugs. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 15, 2015 9:30:18 GMT -5
That shot is a great example of how subtle yet powerful the changes to Gwen's design were. Here is Gwen of #47 next to Gwen of #48 in identical poses: The Old Gwen has a prominent widow's peak, very silky hair and narrow cat-like eyes. The New Gwen has bangs covering her widow's peak, softer bouncy hair and wider eyes. John just had to add a few new touches to the Ditko model and there she is. Interesting how the two renditions imply completely different things about her character. I wouldn't trust the first one for a moment. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 15, 2015 11:17:07 GMT -5
Agreed! The 1st one looks more like a blonde version of Batman '66 Catwoman to me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 11:27:05 GMT -5
Agreed! The 1st one looks more like a blonde version of Batman '66 Catwoman to me. You say that like it's a bad thing. I'd rather meet the first one; the second is too bland blonde. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 15, 2015 13:40:00 GMT -5
It's not bad exactly, but its also not the type of girl you want your superhero to be involved with. The 2nd one is.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 15, 2015 15:02:05 GMT -5
The changes introduced to her appearance, were dictated by the intended shift in her behavior. That said, I would've liked to see them take on the challenge, of matching the developed personality, with her early looks. If not for anything else, just because she was so beautiful.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 15, 2015 15:55:14 GMT -5
The changes introduced to her appearance, were dictated by the intended shift in her behavior. That said, I would've liked to see them take on the challenge, of matching the developed personality, with her early looks. If not for anything else, just because she was so beautiful. I think it's kind of interesting that her change in personality is marked by a change in appearance because the same thing applies to Peter. The visual change from old Gwen to new Gwen is sudden but so was the change from Ditko Peter to Romita Peter. I think the ultimate point we can take from this is that growing up and going to college changes people. When Peter arrived on campus he wasn't very social and he wasn't particularly friendly. Part of that was due to his other life but it was also because he was coming out of a very hostile school. Likewise, Gwen was a, a pageant queen and the #1 girl at her high school and as a result was a bit of an alpha bitch. In the months they've been at school both of these characters have grown. Peter has developed into a well adjusted young man while Gwen has softened quite a bit. In fact we could even assume that these changes were caused by the introduction of Peter and Mary Jane into her life: Peter proving that she can't just be glamorous and expect a guy to eat out of her hand and MJ showing that there are other gorgeous girls out there and simply being gorgeous isn't enough. Since Gwen's thoughts were closed off to us we have no way of knowing what exactly was going through her mind but these changes read surprisingly organically as character development rather than as Stan and John grasping for a new personality. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 15, 2015 17:09:28 GMT -5
The changes introduced to her appearance, were dictated by the intended shift in her behavior. That said, I would've liked to see them take on the challenge, of matching the developed personality, with her early looks. If not for anything else, just because she was so beautiful. I think it's kind of interesting that her change in personality is marked by a change in appearance because the same thing applies to Peter. The visual change from old Gwen to new Gwen is sudden but so was the change from Ditko Peter to Romita Peter. I think the ultimate point we can take from this is that growing up and going to college changes people. When Peter arrived on campus he wasn't very social and he wasn't particularly friendly. Part of that was due to his other life but it was also because he was coming out of a very hostile school. Likewise, Gwen was a, a pageant queen and the #1 girl at her high school and as a result was a bit of an alpha bitch. In the months they've been at school both of these characters have grown. Peter has developed into a well adjusted young man while Gwen has softened quite a bit. In fact we could even assume that these changes were caused by the introduction of Peter and Mary Jane into her life: Peter proving that she can't just be glamorous and expect a guy to eat out of her hand and MJ showing that there are other gorgeous girls out there and simply being gorgeous isn't enough. Since Gwen's thoughts were closed off to us we have no way of knowing what exactly was going through her mind but these changes read surprisingly organically as character development rather than as Stan and John grasping for a new personality. I completely agree on the development angle. Even though early Gwen is quite different from the classic one, there are forces at work within the story, that could explain such a change in behavior, personality evolution even. It may sound corny, but I think the main factor in the character shifting to a softer version, is simply love. In the long term, this wouldn't have worked as an explanation, because it's known that the chemical changes in the brain don't last, but from this point in the story, to ASM #121, not much Marvel Time elapsed. A friend of mine, who was quite into psychoanalysis, once told me that people of the opposite sex, become much more attractive, when we see them with a partner. This could be the case with the Peter-MJ-Gwen triangle, if not for the fact that he was attractive to her, prior to MJ's irruption. In fact, as I said before, even when Gwen noticed she had his undivided attention, she still punished him a little bit more. In the end, she just tired of the game and made it really easy for Peter, realizing he was too shy to make a definitive move. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Mar 15, 2015 20:01:03 GMT -5
I completely agree on the development angle. Even though early Gwen is quite different from the classic one, there are forces at work within the story, that could explain such a change in behavior, personality evolution even. It may sound corny, but I think the main factor in the character shifting to a softer version, is simply love. In the long term, this wouldn't have worked as an explanation, because it's known that the chemical changes in the brain don't last, but from this point in the story, to ASM #121, not much Marvel Time elapsed. Interesting idea. My very broad estimate of the series timeline puts ASM #121 around winter of their Junior year, about a year and a half into their relationship. |
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