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Post by Nowhere Man on May 22, 2014 11:26:14 GMT -5
I'm no expert on Ditko's personal brand of Randian morality and ethics, so I was unsure if he'd see the Punisher as a law-breaker (which he is) or as someone doing a greater good (which I think he does).
Ditko would be relevant to me mainly because of his philosophy on moral absolutism and of course because he created Mr. A.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on May 22, 2014 11:38:57 GMT -5
I can't see Ditko reading The Punisher. Or any other comics.Or even commenting on other people's comics
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 11:39:27 GMT -5
I'm no expert on Ditko's personal brand of Randian morality and ethics, so I was unsure if he'd see the Punisher as a law-breaker (which he is) or as someone doing a greater good (which I think he does). Ditko would be relevant to me mainly because of his philosophy on moral absolutism and of course because he created Mr. A. I'd wonder if Ditko's opinion would be relevant the same way I'd wonder about Stan Lee's. Stan Lee has openly criticised the MAX line, with special reference to FURY, questioning the MAX content....as though he expects it to be as clean and kid friendly as comics he personally had a hand in. Dude, stick to your $400 VIP breakfasts and leave MAX to those who appreciate it. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 22, 2014 11:40:34 GMT -5
Thanks for that. It makes things a bit clearer. I am most used to the Punisher series of the late 80s/early 90s, and his guest appearances in other Marvel books, where 'kick in the door and open up with a fully automatic weapon' was standard operating procedure. Yeah, a lot of Ennis' work was reworking Frank from gunblazing action hero to more methodical and thoughtful. I think the idea was to go back to the tone of the Steven Grant miniseries (when I read the first issue I was stunned by how similar to the MAX series it was). |
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 22, 2014 11:45:45 GMT -5
I'm no expert on Ditko's personal brand of Randian morality and ethics, so I was unsure if he'd see the Punisher as a law-breaker (which he is) or as someone doing a greater good (which I think he does). Ditko would be relevant to me mainly because of his philosophy on moral absolutism and of course because he created Mr. A. I'd wonder if Ditko's opinion would be relevant the same way I'd wonder about Stan Lee's. Stan Lee has openly criticised the MAX line, with special reference to FURY, questioning the MAX content....as though he expects it to be as clean and kid friendly as comics he personally had a hand in. Dude, stick to your $400 VIP breakfasts and leave MAX to those who appreciate it. I was speaking about his opinion of the Punisher in general terms, not the MAX line specifically. I'm sure both would hate it. Was that VIP breakfast line aimed at me? I'm flattered, but that's just a tad above my pay-grade I'm afraid. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 11:47:45 GMT -5
I'd wonder if Ditko's opinion would be relevant the same way I'd wonder about Stan Lee's. Stan Lee has openly criticised the MAX line, with special reference to FURY, questioning the MAX content....as though he expects it to be as clean and kid friendly as comics he personally had a hand in. Dude, stick to your $400 VIP breakfasts and leave MAX to those who appreciate it. I was speaking about his opinion of the Punisher in general terms, not the MAX line specifically. I'm sure both would hate it. Was that VIP breakfast line aimed at me? I'm flattered, but that's just a tad above my pay-grade I'm afraid. Nope...it was aimed at Stan... |
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 22, 2014 11:51:30 GMT -5
I obviously should have added  |
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Post by impulse on May 22, 2014 13:13:50 GMT -5
I will say that if all you are familiar with is the Punisher shlock from the 80s/90s, then yes, the Punisher MAX line really is that different. It is "realistic" as others have said. You have to take it with a grain of salt like you do any fiction, but Ennis and Aaron really went to great lengths to sell the character. It's the tactical planning and careful precision that makes it work.
I would like to see a What If-type story with a MAX Punisher really existing in the MU. He would probably be a flash in the pan because he would kill a lot of villains early on when nobody took him seriously, but once the heavy hitters decide to weigh in, obviously he would be done for.
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Post by thebeastofyuccaflats on May 22, 2014 14:58:59 GMT -5
I can't see Ditko reading The Punisher. Or any other comics.Or even commenting on other people's comics As the legend goes, he said of Watchmen "Rorschach is like Mr. A, except he's insane." |
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Post by thebeastofyuccaflats on May 22, 2014 15:16:52 GMT -5
After awhile, Ennis schitck just wasn't interesting anymore. We get it; you think superheroes are silly. It's a critique that has been done to death. Just don't do superhero comics if you don't like them. How hard is that? I have much more respect for creators (and there are many of them) that don't like superheroes comics, don't do them, and never talk about it. Personally, I dislike Archie comics and never saw the appeal, but I've never spent one second of my life bitching about Archie comics...until now. As I said, I think the impetus for Ennis' superhero work is commercial. Fans are going to be more likely to try -and hopefully stay with - your product if they see familiar characters, and if you're a writer only working in the corporate factory system, that's money you want in your pocket. I don't blame Ennis I blame the bizarre second-childhood superhero-above-everything fixation of American corporate comics. Thank. You. I've really gotten sick to the back teeth of this particularly wearisome attitude in fandom. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 18:41:41 GMT -5
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 22, 2014 20:49:02 GMT -5
This list seems a bit biased to me. I guess ramped up violence trumps all in terms of Punisher stories.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 22, 2014 22:50:13 GMT -5
I like the one where he fights Spider-Man and Nightcrawler.
And also the one where he goes insane and is shooting at jaywalkers and litterbugs.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 22, 2014 23:22:14 GMT -5
This list seems a bit biased to me. I guess ramped up violence trumps all in terms of Punisher stories. Could be. Or it could be Ennis trumps all, considering he wrote seven of the ten stories on the list. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 23, 2014 2:54:53 GMT -5
I have to confess that I'm biased against Ennis because of an altercation I had with him, or someone that looked an awful lot like him, at a Holiday Inn I was staying at back when I traveled for work.
So I go down for the Continental Breakfast, as is my wont when so graced with being booked at "The Inn" by my oh so generous ex-employers, and there is this obviously drunk Scotsman milling about and mumbling to himself right in front of a piping hot stack of newly placed cinnamon rolls. I walked slowly up to grab a roll (this was before I quit sugar for stevia mind you) and he starts cursing in a thick Scottish accent, one hand clenched, about not having a sufficient supply of hand towels. I start to snicker a bit and he gives me a look that I'll never forget; it was a poignant mixture of wrath and anguish the likes of which I've never seen before or since. I stopped short in my idle amusement to watch him shamble off, still mumbling, while sloshing about a large orange juice and small plate of unapologetically cindered bacon. I found this meeting far more disturbing than you might suspect.
I decided to share this as to put into proper context any future Ennis critiques I might post.
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