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Post by foxley on May 20, 2014 2:40:11 GMT -5
I appear to have hijacked this thread from being a discussion about the Punisher, for which I aplogise. The discussion of Ennis' merits (or otherwise) is probably a topic for another thread.
I originally posted here hoping to find out what the appeal of the Punisher - a character I am, at best, ambivalent about - is. So, in an effort to restore the thread to its original purpose, can people tell me what about the character appeals to them.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on May 20, 2014 3:25:07 GMT -5
So Ennis gets a free pass to do whatever he wants to characters because he's Garth Ennis and is somehow immune from criticism? How many of us do things we don't necessarily like to do at work because it pays the bills. Something has to fund the start up costs of those creator owned books, so he does work for hire to pay for it. It's a free country, he can take those jobs if he chooses, even if he doesn't like them. And the consumer is free to buy and read it or not as they choose. He doesn't get a free pass form me, I choose not to support the work by not buying it, from him or other creators I don't like, and while I wish editors might give the assignment to someone else, it's their choice to offer it to a writer and the the writer's choice whether to take it. The consumer is free to comment, but they don't get to choose who does what work for a company they neither own nor work for. Their choice is in whether to consume the products or not, hence they are consumers.You are free to complain that you don't like the choices made by the editors or the creators, but that's not a decision you have any power over except with your wallet. If they keep giving assignments like that to Ennis though, someone is obviously buying them in enough numbers to make it profitable for the company to keep paying him to do it. Satisfied customers tend to make less noise verbally, but their money speaks louder than any post or complaint criticizing the choice does. -M It's not that the characterisation is different in Hitman but (and this is from my crappy memory), his superhero characters in the book are deliberately fools - its acerbic, sarcastic, confrontational. Not only that he lampooned the continuity, other story lines, the ridiculousness of the "dc universe". Personally I enjoy that and I think Ennis is one of the best, if not the best, in the business but Foxley's reaction is equally valid and that's a reaction Ennis is probably looking for in some readers and he was basically shown the door out of DC after The Boys mini for taking things too far in the eyes of Paul Levitz (? I think). For me, a horrible decision -especially given Dc trying to relaunch war comics all the time - give the job to Ennis and you'll get a superb, serious work that will sell really well and a run that will be remembered for decades. But he's a very divisive and confrontational writer who obviously just really doesnt like super heroes. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 20, 2014 7:23:30 GMT -5
After awhile, Ennis schitck just wasn't interesting anymore. We get it; you think superheroes are silly. It's a critique that has been done to death. Just don't do superhero comics if you don't like them. How hard is that? I have much more respect for creators (and there are many of them) that don't like superheroes comics, don't do them, and never talk about it. Personally, I dislike Archie comics and never saw the appeal, but I've never spent one second of my life bitching about Archie comics...until now.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on May 20, 2014 8:13:26 GMT -5
After awhile, Ennis schitck just wasn't interesting anymore. We get it; you think superheroes are silly. It's a critique that has been done to death. Just don't do superhero comics if you don't like them. How hard is that? I have much more respect for creators (and there are many of them) that don't like superheroes comics, don't do them, and never talk about it. Personally, I dislike Archie comics and never saw the appeal, but I've never spent one second of my life bitching about Archie comics...until now. Besides The Boys, his own parody creation, he hasn't done a super-hero in over 7 years. |
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Post by DubipR on May 20, 2014 8:27:13 GMT -5
After awhile, Ennis schitck just wasn't interesting anymore. We get it; you think superheroes are silly. It's a critique that has been done to death. Just don't do superhero comics if you don't like them. How hard is that? I have much more respect for creators (and there are many of them) that don't like superheroes comics, don't do them, and never talk about it. Personally, I dislike Archie comics and never saw the appeal, but I've never spent one second of my life bitching about Archie comics...until now. Besides The Boys, his own parody creation, he hasn't done a super-hero in over 7 years. Even a good chunk of The Boys meandered into recycled stories of his career long past. Overall, its a an all-right series but should've been whacked at least by 15 issues. But back to the original thread. This has to be the biggest WTF moment in the history of The Punisher  I know its shades of Lois Lane, but this was just the Marvel editors of the 90s going 'throw some ideas and let it stick'. |
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Post by fanboystranger on May 20, 2014 9:16:13 GMT -5
Personally I enjoy that and I think Ennis is one of the best, if not the best, in the business but Foxley's reaction is equally valid and that's a reaction Ennis is probably looking for in some readers and he was basically shown the door out of DC after The Boys mini for taking things too far in the eyes of Paul Levitz (? I think). That's not exactly what happened. Levitz, wearing his lawyer's hat, decided that The Boys was taking things too far, especially when he learned about some of the industry innuendo in the second arc. He didn't like the book to begin with-- felt it was too crass-- but was magnaminous enough to release the rights without contest in order to keep Ennis and Robertson (and presumably Jim Lee since this was Wildstorm) happy. (Paul was making quite a few of those types of decisions at the time. The talk was that he was more concerned about what the WB lawyers would think than DC's creators. He, of course, is a lawyer himself.) DC would have loved to have held onto Ennis and Robertson. (Robertson has returned to DC for the occasional cover, but he was the one who was really publically upset with DC at the time. Ennis was mild about the whole thing, saying he understood DC's decision even if he did not agree with it and that he felt that Levtiz releasing the rights was the stand-up thing to do.)
Ennis has said that he was pretty much done with DC by that point anyway-- he felt that the new terms at Vertigo were unfavorable towards creators in comparison with what you could get at other publishers. He was going to finish City Lights at Vertigo because he felt he owed Karen Berger, but that and The Boys were it for him at DC. (The Boys, again, was for Wildstorm and, by extension, Jim Lee, who Garth had a good relationship with.) Steve Dillon, however, started gettting a ton of well-paying work at Marvel, and he decided that he really liked working with Dan Way (for some unknown reason), which put City Lights on even more of a delay. Now that Karen has left, I'm not sure what the status of City Lights is. I do know that Garth has bought back the rights to War Stories and will be collecting them through Avatar.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on May 20, 2014 10:29:17 GMT -5
ahh that makes more sense - i did think it was lunacy not to want Ennis in some capacity at the company
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 20, 2014 11:10:25 GMT -5
The highpoint of Ennis' craziness was the first FuryMAX series. It's a fun black comedy (with some real depth of course) but its greatest triumph was in George Clooney reading it, being disgusted and dropping right out of negotiations to play Nick in a movie. Avi Arad was not very happy but I'm sure we all cheered.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 20, 2014 14:02:45 GMT -5
Clooney would have been great for a Nick Fury/S.H.I.E.L.D series set in the 1960s. With Monica Bellucci as Val.
And Diane Kruger as Baroness Paula von Gunther.
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Post by Jasoomian on May 20, 2014 17:06:47 GMT -5
What about the Punisher? Let's keep the Green Lantern conversations on the Lensman thread...
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Post by foxley on May 20, 2014 17:22:02 GMT -5
What about the Punisher? Let's keep the Green Lantern conversations on the Lensman thread... Then shouldn't the Punisher discussion be on The Executioner thread?  |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2014 17:38:11 GMT -5
I appear to have hijacked this thread from being a discussion about the Punisher, for which I aplogise. The discussion of Ennis' merits (or otherwise) is probably a topic for another thread. I originally posted here hoping to find out what the appeal of the Punisher - a character I am, at best, ambivalent about - is. So, in an effort to restore the thread to its original purpose, can people tell me what about the character appeals to them. He'll do what the rest of the heroes won't in his war on crime. I like dark justice/vigilante types. The fact that he employs murder, kidnapping, extortion, coercion, threats of violence, and torture on those that seem untouchable by the so-called system (that the costumed heroes adhere too) makes him more of an ass-murderer than a mass murderer in my book. I'm in the "f*ck yeah, clean up the streets so I can walk in them and not get raped," crowd. The liberals can argue that killing people is not right. Maybe that's why I don't consider scum as people. And I'd buy him a coffee anytime.... |
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Post by Jesse on May 20, 2014 17:54:06 GMT -5
Having said that, though, Archie Meets the Punisher is an absolute classic. It's fantastic! I bought it when it first came out and still own that same copy. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 20, 2014 18:23:51 GMT -5
After awhile, Ennis schitck just wasn't interesting anymore. We get it; you think superheroes are silly. It's a critique that has been done to death. Just don't do superhero comics if you don't like them. How hard is that? I have much more respect for creators (and there are many of them) that don't like superheroes comics, don't do them, and never talk about it. Personally, I dislike Archie comics and never saw the appeal, but I've never spent one second of my life bitching about Archie comics...until now. As I said, I think the impetus for Ennis' superhero work is commercial. Fans are going to be more likely to try -and hopefully stay with - your product if they see familiar characters, and if you're a writer only working in the corporate factory system, that's money you want in your pocket. I don't blame Ennis I blame the bizarre second-childhood superhero-above-everything fixation of American corporate comics. |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 20, 2014 18:53:50 GMT -5
I appear to have hijacked this thread from being a discussion about the Punisher, for which I aplogise. The discussion of Ennis' merits (or otherwise) is probably a topic for another thread. I originally posted here hoping to find out what the appeal of the Punisher - a character I am, at best, ambivalent about - is. So, in an effort to restore the thread to its original purpose, can people tell me what about the character appeals to them. The primary attribute that appeals to me is his pragmaticism. He will do what he has to do to get the job done. The system coddles human garbage and he cleans it up. He doesn't just run in with a machine gun and blow it away, he plans his operations to a T. And when things go off plan he improvises, adapts and overcomes. The fact that he is a mortal man is also very appealing. You get that thrill of "There is no safety net" like you get with Batman, but unlike Batman Frank operates in a more believable way. He is ex-Special Forces, he went through Hell in Nam and now he uses that training and experience to wage war on people who have absolutely no effective means of fighting back. One of my favorite moments is when he slowly kills a sex trafficker by throwing her f into a shatterproof window face first. The window doesn't break but the repeated blows damage the frame. She screams at him and begs him to stop and he just tells her that by her own logic he is stronger than she is so he can do whatever he wants. Then he throws her, the frame breaks and she falls from the skyscraper to her death. It gives me chills everytime, it makes me so happy to see a pile of crap like that get exactly whats coming to her without liberals casting a safety net. |
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