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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 27, 2015 19:25:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Farrar! You posted while I was writing my next post. I'm going to check that link and see if it answers my questions. I am flabbergasted to learn that I bought the Royal Flush Gang's third appearance (Joker #5) not quite off the stands but it was probably less than a year old when I got it. (It's also weird to me that my first issue of Batman (#279) was only the Riddler's twelfth appearance! That is just crazy for a popular character who's been around since 1948!)
And thanks for the recommendation, wildfire. I would love to see the Royal Flush Gang animated. I've seen Batman Beyond and didn't like it, but if I'm honest, I have to admit that I never gave it much of a chance. I will keep an eye open.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 27, 2015 22:33:19 GMT -5
What's really weird is that The Riddler appeared in two issues of Detective (140 and 142) in 1948 and did not show up again until Batman 171 in 1965. That was why it was so weird, when I and a few other comics fans watched the first episode of Batman a few months later and saw The Riddler as the villain. I think I've read that the issue that sparked Wm. Dozier's interest was 171, which accounts for his appearance on that first show. If Dozier found out that the Riddler was hardly a household name even in the Batcave, it didn't deter him from using him. Maybe because he thought the Riddler would translate well to a medium with sound? Though I don't recall the Gorshin Giggle as a key part of the comic book version back then, anyway. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 27, 2015 23:14:26 GMT -5
What's really weird is that The Riddler appeared in two issues of Detective (140 and 142) in 1948 and did not show up again until Batman 171 in 1965. That was why it was so weird, when I and a few other comics fans watched the first episode of Batman a few months later and saw The Riddler as the villain. I think I've read that the issue that sparked Wm. Dozier's interest was 171, which accounts for his appearance on that first show. If Dozier found out that the Riddler was hardly a household name even in the Batcave, it didn't deter him from using him. Maybe because he thought the Riddler would translate well to a medium with sound? Though I don't recall the Gorshin Giggle as a key part of the comic book version back then, anyway. Back when I updated my blog more than once a year, I had a feature that I called BATMAN FRIDAY: WHY WE LOVE DETECTIVE COMICS! And for a year or so, I posted almost every Friday on topics relating to Batman and Detective Comics. Here a link to my entry on The Riddler. |
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Post by MDG on Oct 28, 2015 11:33:59 GMT -5
What's really weird is that The Riddler appeared in two issues of Detective (140 and 142) in 1948 and did not show up again until Batman 171 in 1965. That was why it was so weird, when I and a few other comics fans watched the first episode of Batman a few months later and saw The Riddler as the villain. I think I've read that the issue that sparked Wm. Dozier's interest was 171, which accounts for his appearance on that first show. If Dozier found out that the Riddler was hardly a household name even in the Batcave, it didn't deter him from using him. Maybe because he thought the Riddler would translate well to a medium with sound? Though I don't recall the Gorshin Giggle as a key part of the comic book version back then, anyway. I think The Riddler was a pretty obvious choice--other than the Joker--for the pilot: simple concept, visually striking, color contrast with Batman and Robin. And through the Schiff years, there weren't that many memorable villains except, maybe, for Clayface, who they weren't going to use on TV. I can also see why he was revived in the books: the character lent himself to gimmicky puzzle plots, which was Julie Schwartz' default mode. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Oct 28, 2015 13:38:40 GMT -5
I read the rest of the stories, JLA #103 to #106, in Showcase Presents: JLA, Volume 5, and Len Wein did a pretty good job working within the restrictions of the JLA format and coming up with some fun stories. He made good use of some guest stars, he added two new members and he brought back some JLA villains instead of relying on the weird ecological or philosophical threat of the month.
The Dick Dillin art continues to be great. But it's not the only selling point anymore.
(These stories are from issues dated December 1972 to July/August 1973.)
Justice League of America #103 is especially fun. Felix Faust is the villain, using his powers to make a gateway for demons to come to Earth and take over the bodies of humans, and the only thing standing in his way is the JLA! And the Phantom Stranger! And Len Wein, Glynis Wein, Gerry Conway and Steve Englehart, who are all traveling to meet Tom Fagan in Rutland, Vermont, for the annual Halloween Parade! (Working this real event into stories was a 'thing' at both Marvel and DC at the beginning of the Bronze Age.)
Justice League of America #104 is another fun one as Hector Hammond somehow revives an old JLA villain called the Shaggy Man and takes control of him and makes him attack the JLA. (I think I've heard of the Shaggy Man but this is the first time I've ever seen him in a comic book.) He plays King Kong and climbs a building carrying the Black Canary (who else?) and she's rescued by Green Lantern. And Green Arrow calls him "Brush-Face." Oh, Oliver. What a rascal.
The Elongated Man and the Red Tornado both become members in a two-parter in Justice League of America #105 and #106. It's a bit convoluted, involving some plan by T.O. Morrow to sneak the Red Tornado into the League and then kill them all by sabotaging the Tornado's signal device. It's a pretty dopey plan, but what do you expect from a guy named T.O. Morrow? But it has some fun scenes. Sue and Ralph are sightseeing at an art museum. (I just realized, the Elongated Man's series in Detective had been canceled a year ago or so. Did they put him in JLA just because he didn't have a regular series anymore?) Weird globby humanoids attack and steal the frames!
When Ralph calls the JLA and they divide into groups, Black Canary calls dibs on Superman.
Superman, why don't you and I make a quick trip to Motor City?
I would guess that she needs a break from Oliver!
Weird stuff happens, but it turns out that the Red Tornado (who didn't really die in #102) has been following them and helping them surreptitiously.
In the second part, there's an interesting interlude where the Red Tornado tries to live among humans, but he runs into difficulties because he has no ID and his only job experience is "free-lance law officer." Bu he meets a nice lady who buys him dinner and pays the rent for the first week at a small apartment. Then she gets him a job as a lab assistant.
T.O. Morrow puts his plan into operation and gets defeated in a humiliating way because his name is T.O. Morrow.
I wouldn't compare it to the average Avengers story of the same era, but it's a heck of a lot better than it was before Wein. I love the Rutland, Vermont issues! They are such fun. And, with Halloween upon us, now is a good time to re-read them. I think there should be a TPB collecting all of the various Rutland issues. I'm also a sucker for the Phantom Stranger. I like how Batman vouches for the Phantom Stranger to the other JLAers here. Also funny how the Stranger is invited to join the JLA and disappears before accepting, and it's left ambiguous for years as to whether or not he's actually a member. I thought this was a good issue, especially the art. JLA #104, sadly, is one of the few issues I don't have, either as a back issue or in reprint format.  The Shaggy Man is an interesting foe. I think he's a bit like an early version of Doomsday, in that he basically can't be defeated the same way twice. I also don't have #106 (so I miss how Red Tornado got resurrected), though I do have #105. That is another very good issue, especially the art. Yes, Ralph & Sue are a fun couple. The JLA do something that the X-Men would become somewhat famous for here, combining all their powers to focus on one spot. As far as the JLA stories being better than with Wein than before Wein, I agree that Wein's stories are MUCH better than those of his immediate predecessor, Mike Friedrich. I'd also rate his stories as better than Gardner Fox's (sorry, folks) and the one Bob Kanigher story. I'd also rate his JLA stories as slightly better than the Denny O'Neil run, but I do have to rate Steve Englehart's run ahead of Wein's. |
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Post by gothos on Oct 28, 2015 15:00:40 GMT -5
What's really weird is that The Riddler appeared in two issues of Detective (140 and 142) in 1948 and did not show up again until Batman 171 in 1965. That was why it was so weird, when I and a few other comics fans watched the first episode of Batman a few months later and saw The Riddler as the villain. I think I've read that the issue that sparked Wm. Dozier's interest was 171, which accounts for his appearance on that first show. If Dozier found out that the Riddler was hardly a household name even in the Batcave, it didn't deter him from using him. Maybe because he thought the Riddler would translate well to a medium with sound? Though I don't recall the Gorshin Giggle as a key part of the comic book version back then, anyway. FWIW, the characters whom comics-fans thought of as Batman's important villains were also not "household names" in any way that a producer like Dozier would have recognized. We think of Joker, Penguin and Catwoman as the big three-- though Catwoman seemed to get banned in post-Code Batman comics-- but were they recognizable, even from adults who might have read the comic strips? It definitely seems like Dozier and his writers just went with whoever they thought might be popular in their adaptation. Thus, they not only adapted the Riddler, who only had three stories, but also Mr. Zero/Freeze, who only had one, and the Catwoman, who hadn't appeared since 1954. As for the question about the worst JLA/JSA question, the ones already mentioned-- the one with Solomon Grundy and the one with Cary Bates-- were indeed awful. But at least they were trying to do something different, albeit badly. I seem to recall Roy Thomas doing a three-way crossover between the JLA, JSA and his All-Star Squadron that added up to a whole lotta nuthin. (Did it also include the Legion, or was that a separate story?) |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 28, 2015 17:39:18 GMT -5
I was going to read Joker #5 today. It's a great story and my first exposure to the Royal Flush Gang. I haven't read it in a long time. I wanted to read it closely because now I'm kind of curious about who the Ace of Clubs is. Mike's Amazing World say it's the original Ace, Amos Fortune, but the Comic Book Database says that, though the rest of the gang are the original members, the Ace in Joker #5 is not Amos Fortune. It doesn't say who it is, it just says he's never been identified. Neither site gives a source or any details about their conclusions.
I don't know if anybody else is interested in weird little details like this.
But I can't get to it because the cat is sleeping on the comic box I need. She'll move eventually and I can get it then. I can find other things to do until then. I could read The Hunchback of Notre Dame! I finally got past the first chapter and it's a little easier - a little! - to read.
EDITED TO ADD: I found something to do. The GOP Kid's Table Debate has started already.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 28, 2015 22:27:55 GMT -5
I finally got to my Joker #5 and I watched the GOP debate and then I decided to walk the dogs but now I'm back and I'm going to read Joker #5! The first thing I notice: The Ernie Chua cover!  I know we have some members who don't much like Chua, but I do, and this is a pretty solid 1976 effort. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 28, 2015 23:01:15 GMT -5
I've always liked the story in Joker #5, and it was fun to read it again. The nine issues of The Joker are a lot of fun if you like batty Bronze Age comics. I pull them out and read them every so often. It's been two or three years since the last time I read the series straight through, and I pull out #4 to read on its own even more often than that.
"Mike's Amazing World" is wrong about Amos Fortune being the Ace in this one. I thought I remembered some dialogue about this, and I was right! After the Joker foils the attempt by the Royal Flush Gang to steal some paintings, the Queen of Spades starts waving her finger at Ace and she says they've had nothing but bad luck since he took over. He has a few word balloons of exposition where he explains why he changed them from clubs to spades and why they now use various gadgets (like giant playing cards they fly around on) in addition to the magic cards they used in their earlier appearances.
So he's not Amos Fortune. But no clues are otherwise provided as to his identity.
And some dialogue earlier in the issue indicates that the rest of the gang are the original members. The Queen says to the Jack something like: "Just like we did to the Justice League." (I suppose it's possible that only the Queen and the Jack are original members, but there's no evidence for this.)
So that questions been answered!
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Post by Action Ace on Oct 28, 2015 23:49:38 GMT -5
Thanks, Farrar! You posted while I was writing my next post. I'm going to check that link and see if it answers my questions. I am flabbergasted to learn that I bought the Royal Flush Gang's third appearance (Joker #5) not quite off the stands but it was probably less than a year old when I got it. (It's also weird to me that my first issue of Batman (#279) was only the Riddler's twelfth appearance! That is just crazy for a popular character who's been around since 1948!) And thanks for the recommendation, wildfire. I would love to see the Royal Flush Gang animated. I've seen Batman Beyond and didn't like it, but if I'm honest, I have to admit that I never gave it much of a chance. I will keep an eye open. They show up in the Justice League episode "Wildcards" where the Joker gets them together. They have much different powers than in the comics and appear in another episode later on. The Royal Flush Gang currently exists as a biker gang in Arrow and Flash tv shows. |
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Post by Action Ace on Oct 28, 2015 23:53:19 GMT -5
What's really weird is that The Riddler appeared in two issues of Detective (140 and 142) in 1948 and did not show up again until Batman 171 in 1965. That was why it was so weird, when I and a few other comics fans watched the first episode of Batman a few months later and saw The Riddler as the villain. I think I've read that the issue that sparked Wm. Dozier's interest was 171, which accounts for his appearance on that first show. If Dozier found out that the Riddler was hardly a household name even in the Batcave, it didn't deter him from using him. Maybe because he thought the Riddler would translate well to a medium with sound? Though I don't recall the Gorshin Giggle as a key part of the comic book version back then, anyway. FWIW, the characters whom comics-fans thought of as Batman's important villains were also not "household names" in any way that a producer like Dozier would have recognized. We think of Joker, Penguin and Catwoman as the big three-- though Catwoman seemed to get banned in post-Code Batman comics-- but were they recognizable, even from adults who might have read the comic strips? It definitely seems like Dozier and his writers just went with whoever they thought might be popular in their adaptation. Thus, they not only adapted the Riddler, who only had three stories, but also Mr. Zero/Freeze, who only had one, and the Catwoman, who hadn't appeared since 1954. As for the question about the worst JLA/JSA question, the ones already mentioned-- the one with Solomon Grundy and the one with Cary Bates-- were indeed awful. But at least they were trying to do something different, albeit badly. I seem to recall Roy Thomas doing a three-way crossover between the JLA, JSA and his All-Star Squadron that added up to a whole lotta nuthin. (Did it also include the Legion, or was that a separate story?) The JLA/ JSA All-Star Squadron crossover was in issues 207-209 in 1982. The JLA/ JSA/ Legion crossover was in issues 147-148 in 1977. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 0:19:50 GMT -5
CRISIS ON EARTH THREE!!  Dick Dillin was amazing in the 70's on JLA, but the book that meant the most to me was JLA #114 which reprinted JLA #29,30...yes, it had a new feature with wonderful Dick Dillin art, but this was my first introduction to the Crime Syndicate characters, even though it was a reprint at the time. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Oct 29, 2015 10:04:14 GMT -5
As for the question about the worst JLA/JSA question, the ones already mentioned-- the one with Solomon Grundy and the one with Cary Bates-- were indeed awful. But at least they were trying to do something different, albeit badly. I seem to recall Roy Thomas doing a three-way crossover between the JLA, JSA and his All-Star Squadron that added up to a whole lotta nuthin. (Did it also include the Legion, or was that a separate story?) Which JLA/JSA issues did Carey Bates write? If, by the Solomon Grundy one you mean the Mike Friedrich ones, then I am in agreement. |
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Post by gothos on Oct 29, 2015 16:29:54 GMT -5
The JLA/JSA teamup mentioned elsewhere was JLA #123-124, co-written by Bates and Elliott Maggin. Bates, Pasko, and Conway also wrote a handful of alternating JLA issues around 1976. At some point Conway became entrenched as the regular writer for Thoth only knows how long; all I know was that his tenure SEEMED TO LAST FOREVER--!!
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Post by gothos on Oct 29, 2015 16:34:11 GMT -5
I've always liked the story in Joker #5, and it was fun to read it again. The nine issues of The Joker are a lot of fun if you like batty Bronze Age comics. I pull them out and read them every so often. It's been two or three years since the last time I read the series straight through, and I pull out #4 to read on its own even more often than that. "Mike's Amazing World" is wrong about Amos Fortune being the Ace in this one. I thought I remembered some dialogue about this, and I was right! After the Joker foils the attempt by the Royal Flush Gang to steal some paintings, the Queen of Spades starts waving her finger at Ace and she says they've had nothing but bad luck since he took over. He has a few word balloons of exposition where he explains why he changed them from clubs to spades and why they now use various gadgets (like giant playing cards they fly around on) in addition to the magic cards they used in their earlier appearances. So he's not Amos Fortune. But no clues are otherwise provided as to his identity. And some dialogue earlier in the issue indicates that the rest of the gang are the original members. The Queen says to the Jack something like: "Just like we did to the Justice League." (I suppose it's possible that only the Queen and the Jack are original members, but there's no evidence for this.) So that questions been answered! Interesting detail; it's certainly not something I remembered. Perhaps the writer had some notion of using "his" version of the Gang in future stories. This would be an example of a plot-thread that didn't go anywhere, unlike the one I pointed out on some other thread here: where Len Wein gave Poison Ivy a plant-gun just so she could go toe-to-toe with the Justice Leaguers, and that somehow eventuated into Ivy becoming a plant-controlling woman. |
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The Shaggy Man is an interesting foe. I think he's a bit like an early version of Doomsday, in that he basically can't be defeated the same way twice.
