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Post by dupersuper on Apr 7, 2015 4:50:26 GMT -5
This will probably seem like an annoyingly irrelevant question to DC fans, but since I'm mainly interested in the Kirby characters when it comes to DC I have to ask - were the New Gods or OMAC or the Demon, etc included in Crisis at all? I seem to remember at some point an oddball group of heroes (Dolphin, Rip Hunter, Atomic Knight, and others) visit Apokolips for some reason. I think Darkseid is just seen biding his time. I also remember Kamandi. I think he appeared when those tuning fork towers showed up (maybe around #5). I think the Demon showed up briefly when the mystical characters were working together around #11. I'm not sure when OMAC appeared, but I think it's almost certain that he did. Ah, yes: The Lost Heroes. I know Etrigan was seen fighting Shadow Demons with Amethyst, and I'm sure OMAC was in a crowd scene or 2. |
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Post by gothos on Apr 7, 2015 15:45:59 GMT -5
I seem to remember at some point an oddball group of heroes (Dolphin, Rip Hunter, Atomic Knight, and others) visit Apokolips for some reason. I think Darkseid is just seen biding his time. I also remember Kamandi. I think he appeared when those tuning fork towers showed up (maybe around #5). I think the Demon showed up briefly when the mystical characters were working together around #11. I'm not sure when OMAC appeared, but I think it's almost certain that he did. Ah, yes: The Lost Heroes. I know Etrigan was seen fighting Shadow Demons with Amethyst, and I'm sure OMAC was in a crowd scene or 2. I have the vague recollection that Marv Wolfman was responsible for assembling the Forgotten Heroes in whatever Superman team-up title they first gathered. They did seem like a rather peculiar group to be charged with approaching Darkseid for help. But then, almost a third of CRISIS is devoted to Wolfman and Perez acknowledging that this or that character/group had not been forgotten in the overall call to arms. One thing I disliked back in the day was Wolfman and Perez killing off characters that no one cared about-- the Nighthawk, the Bug Eyed Bandit. (I make an exception for Wonder Woman because everyone knew from the fan-press that she was being "killed" to be rebooted.) If all of reality is going to be rebooted, then you could just as easily kill off famous characters who would, like Wonder Woman, appear in some new form on the Single Earth. But then, that might have confused some fans. Etrigan, unlike Omac, at least gets to speak a few lines, I believe in conversation with Dr. Fate. |
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Post by gothos on Apr 7, 2015 15:47:23 GMT -5
DC caught up closer with Marvel in the mid to late 80s as a good chunk of their classic 70s/early 80s people went there and they were way ahead of the curve pulling all that talent over from the UK. Not that it's relevant to a CRISIS discussion, but what caused them to lose that chunk? Jim Shooter's ousting from Marvel, perhaps? |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 7, 2015 16:25:41 GMT -5
I don't think it was necessary and a lot of the fall out was terrible but the art was great and I loved the opening about how the multiverse was formed.
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Post by earl on Apr 7, 2015 19:31:17 GMT -5
I believe for many it was the other way around that Shooter kind of led them to leave rather than Shooter's ouster as EIC.
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Post by dupersuper on Apr 7, 2015 20:01:14 GMT -5
Ah, yes: The Lost Heroes. I know Etrigan was seen fighting Shadow Demons with Amethyst, and I'm sure OMAC was in a crowd scene or 2. I have the vague recollection that Marv Wolfman was responsible for assembling the Forgotten Heroes in whatever Superman team-up title they first gathered. They did seem like a rather peculiar group to be charged with approaching Darkseid for help. But then, almost a third of CRISIS is devoted to Wolfman and Perez acknowledging that this or that character/group had not been forgotten in the overall call to arms. One thing I disliked back in the day was Wolfman and Perez killing off characters that no one cared about-- the Nighthawk, the Bug Eyed Bandit. (I make an exception for Wonder Woman because everyone knew from the fan-press that she was being "killed" to be rebooted.) If all of reality is going to be rebooted, then you could just as easily kill off famous characters who would, like Wonder Woman, appear in some new form on the Single Earth. But then, that might have confused some fans. Etrigan, unlike Omac, at least gets to speak a few lines, I believe in conversation with Dr. Fate. I believe they first showed up in a DC Comics Presents issue, though I'm not positive. They weren't charged with approaching Darkseid: they just stumbled on Brainiac, caught him up on what had happened while he was recuperating, and Brainiac was like "I know some one who can help". Nighthawk and some of the other did basically come back, and being an old west hero he'd been dead for decades any way... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 22:47:48 GMT -5
DC caught up closer with Marvel in the mid to late 80s as a good chunk of their classic 70s/early 80s people went there and they were way ahead of the curve pulling all that talent over from the UK. Not that it's relevant to a CRISIS discussion, but what caused them to lose that chunk? Jim Shooter's ousting from Marvel, perhaps? Jeanette Khan had been championing creator rights and better treatment for creators since she had gotten hired by DC and had made some serious inroads in those areas in the early-mid 80s-instituting royalties and reprint rate increases, improvement in returning original art (the whole Kirby original art controversy was taking place around this time as Marvel had not returned a lot of it to Kirby causing several creators to boycott Marvel and vilify Shooter), and overall DC was gaining a better rep as a place to hang your hat than Marvel at the time, largely because of the efforts of Khan and her hand picked right hand men Giordano and Levitz. -M |
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Post by fanboystranger on Apr 7, 2015 23:26:43 GMT -5
Not that it's relevant to a CRISIS discussion, but what caused them to lose that chunk? Jim Shooter's ousting from Marvel, perhaps? Jeanette Khan had been championing creator rights and better treatment for creators since she had gotten hired by DC and had made some serious inroads in those areas in the early-mid 80s-instituting royalties and reprint rate increases, improvement in returning original art (the whole Kirby original art controversy was taking place around this time as Marvel had not returned a lot of it to Kirby causing several creators to boycott Marvel and vilify Shooter), and overall DC was gaining a better rep as a place to hang your hat than Marvel at the time, largely because of the efforts of Khan and her hand picked right hand men Giordano and Levitz. -M I'd add to that DC's willingness to play around with format, quality of paper, and coloring. Ronin, especially, was a watershed book in that regard.
Steve Bissette, back when he was still blogging, pointed out that DC's strategy towards the exploding independent scene was "how do we make our books better?" They'd incorporate the new formats, paper, coloring, etc, and pursue that indie talent. Marvel's strategy was "how do we freeze these independent publishers out of the market?" They'd just print more books to steal shelf space.
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Post by MDG on Apr 8, 2015 10:28:50 GMT -5
DC at this time, also started crediting creators on the covers, which probably helped their image with creators. They also lucked out in being able to successfully identify and cultivate a niche audience with Vertigo (other spin-off imprints like Impact and Helix tried to build a market that wasn't there).
But Khan and Giordano seemed like they were trying to make the industry "grow up," something that was long overdue.
As a reader at the time, I was totally on board with Crisis until it became obvious that they were going to get rid of Earth-2 (and the GA Superman, Batman, and WW). Stupid!
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Polar Bear
Full Member
Married, father of six
Posts: 107 
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Post by Polar Bear on Apr 8, 2015 16:27:19 GMT -5
My kids have been hearing about the Crisis since they were, like, 6 or 7. The oldest is now 17. I just last week dug CoIE out of the back issue boxes to share with them.
They're pleased. They have occasional questions, but they're very happy with the quality of the series overall.
My having waited until post-Flashpoint has had certain unforeseen advantages, too, such as their being able to see how cyclical the whole thing is.
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Post by gothos on Apr 9, 2015 15:33:36 GMT -5
I have the vague recollection that Marv Wolfman was responsible for assembling the Forgotten Heroes in whatever Superman team-up title they first gathered. They did seem like a rather peculiar group to be charged with approaching Darkseid for help. But then, almost a third of CRISIS is devoted to Wolfman and Perez acknowledging that this or that character/group had not been forgotten in the overall call to arms. One thing I disliked back in the day was Wolfman and Perez killing off characters that no one cared about-- the Nighthawk, the Bug Eyed Bandit. (I make an exception for Wonder Woman because everyone knew from the fan-press that she was being "killed" to be rebooted.) If all of reality is going to be rebooted, then you could just as easily kill off famous characters who would, like Wonder Woman, appear in some new form on the Single Earth. But then, that might have confused some fans. Etrigan, unlike Omac, at least gets to speak a few lines, I believe in conversation with Dr. Fate. I believe they first showed up in a DC Comics Presents issue, though I'm not positive. They weren't charged with approaching Darkseid: they just stumbled on Brainiac, caught him up on what had happened while he was recuperating, and Brainiac was like "I know some one who can help". Nighthawk and some of the other did basically come back, and being an old west hero he'd been dead for decades any way... I meant that they were a peculiar group for the WRITER to have chosen, through whatever means, to become the envoys to Darkseid. I just looked up their genesis, and they were indeed first assembled in a Marv Wolfman script for ACTION #545. I don't imagine Wolfman thought that this oddball group would have moved on to a regular series, either in the old universe or the new one about to be born. The FH project has the aura of a fannish thing: "Here's a bunch of characters I liked, and now that I'm writing comics, I can put them together in a Superman tale." Come to think of it, the Gods of New Genesis seemed rather invisible during COIE. I just reread the whole thing and don't remember them pitching in. Regardless, here's the essay I was talking about at the thread's beginning. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 12:28:29 GMT -5
I'm in the process of indexing COIE and it's even worse than I remember. Yes, outstanding art and some moving individual scenes but you can hear the wheels grinding from first to last. The plot is arbitrary, nonsensical and an insult to this reader's intelligence, with Marv Wolfman demonstrating a profoundly staggering ignorance of cosmology and physics. "Comic book science" is not an acceptable excuse, not for a story on the scale of this. I'd come to think I hated Crisis for its longterm effect on the DCU and on the industry as a whole but now I remember that the series itself reeks. Agreed with every word of this - it was a stupid story with a stupid end point, written stupidly, had a stupid effect on the DCU and was rendered even more stupid by the way it was half-implemented (stupidly). It's a difficult choice as to whether this series was worse than Infinite Crisis or vice versa, though this has as the villain a character whose power, according to his name, is apparently to not pay close attention (or perhaps to look the other way). Conversely IC had terrible art. Ah, a plague on both their houses (and you can throw in Final Crisis, as well!) |
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Post by paulie on Apr 14, 2015 15:37:24 GMT -5
My kids have been hearing about the Crisis since they were, like, 6 or 7. The oldest is now 17. I just last week dug CoIE out of the back issue boxes to share with them. They're pleased. They have occasional questions, but they're very happy with the quality of the series overall. My having waited until post- Flashpoint has had certain unforeseen advantages, too, such as their being able to see how cyclical the whole thing is. My thoughts on Crisis have always been that it was never as good as it needed to be to clear up the supposed issues it was supposed to clear up. Conversely, I don't think it is as awful as some of the old school DC fans say it is. It was an entertaining story even though it wasn't exactly the next Warlock or Dark Phoenix in its cosmic awesomness. |
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Post by Pól Rua on Apr 21, 2015 21:37:49 GMT -5
In general, the after-effects of it have been more negative than positive, and there are any number of reasons why its aftereffects have been awful, but there were some definite positive effects.
- We got to see George Perez draw everyone. As a longtime DC fan, seeing Enemy Ace and Kamandi teaming up with Adam Strange and Krypto the Superdog is still something that hits me where I live. Yup, it's shallow, but what can I say, I'm a sucker for team-ups and big group-shots.
- There were a lot of series which were running on fumes. The Flash, in particular, had turned into a godawful mess, and the Detroit incarnation of the JLA was in the process of crashing and burning hard.
- Some of the revitalized series were a real shot in the arm. Perez's Wonder Woman and Byrne, Wolfman and Ordway on Superman made for some great stories (some awful ones as well, but you couldn't say it was dull).
On the minus side, it pretty much crippled the Legion of Superheroes and All-Star Squadron, gutted the Marvel Family, the Quality Heroes and the newly-acquired Charlton Heroes by eliminating Earth-S, Earth-X and Earth-6 and forcing the characters to scramble for room in an already overcrowded comics 'universe' where most of the roles the characters filled were already being performed by existing characters.
But I think, worst of all, it set the stage for DC's continually burning down the whole damn house every time their convoluted continuity porn gets too overwhelming for them, and their obsession with fiddling with continuity at the expense of just telling great stories with wonderful characters.
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Post by spoon on Apr 21, 2015 22:50:47 GMT -5
On the minus side, it pretty much crippled the Legion of Superheroes and All-Star Squadron, gutted the Marvel Family, the Quality Heroes and the newly-acquired Charlton Heroes by eliminating Earth-S, Earth-X and Earth-6 and forcing the characters to scramble for room in an already overcrowded comics 'universe' where most of the roles the characters filled were already being performed by existing characters. You mean Earth-4. Earth-6 was the Earth of Lady Quark. I disagree about the Charlton heroes. Apparently, DC had purchased them in 1983. That means they'd been sitting around for two years unused prior to Crisis. I think those characters have gotten a lot more use integrated into a single Earth then they would have had DC tried to maintain them in a separate Earth. If Crisis had never happened, I don't know if DC would be successful launching Earth-6 based titles. They'd probably just be located to showing up in a JLA-JSA story once every few years. |
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