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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 28, 2014 14:06:07 GMT -5
It's funny how disjointed every thing got after Roy left (whom I met this weekend). I've read 1-115 probably a dozen times and it flows and each book is firmly lodged in my memory. But 116 - 172, when Owsley takes over, coupled by the disjointed way that SSOC was presented, it's hard to tell what was going on (when, where, and how)in Conan's life. Granted, Roy made it easy but as someone who doesn't have the REH chronology permanently ingrained in his thought matrix I really lost track of what was going on in Conan's life; 'What's going on?' perhaps being the main driver behind serial stories. I seem to recall an issue of SSOC where Conan goes to Cimmeria and fights some sort of clan that had taken over the family farm. It didn't seem to work. The issue would have been in the 120s somewhere. That would be #119. Not my favourite Conan tale and one I would easily agree to consider non-canonical (wizards and palm trees in Cimmeria again!) but it did have a few virtues: (a) telling readers that the backstory from the Conan movie was crap; (b) Celtic names for Cimmerians, which is what Howard used; (c) Conan not being present for the death of his family, which is more likely than his arriving just in the nick of time to save them all. Oh, as someone who has read Conan comics for 25 years his biography as I know it looks like this so you can see where I have my holes. 13 or 14 years old - Frost Giant's Daughter. 14 or 15 years old - Ends up in Hyperboria fighting in various regional skirmishes. 15 - 18 - Travels south and thieves for 2 or 3 years. Tower of the Elephant 18- At maturity is able to fight in the Turan conflict for about a year or two. 19-21 - Wanders 21 - Meets Belit 21- 25 Pirates with Belit Queen of the Black Coast And then after 25 it gets a little foggy for me. I know he does two long stretches as a pirate and then a Kozak. I know around 35 or 40 he becomes King of Aquilona. The age needs to slide back because his athletic feats are not those of a forty something. Here is the Miller and Clark chronology pf Conan's career, the one that is quoted at the start of the early SSoC issues and that Marvel used (when Roy was handling the books). Although some modern fans disagree with it (for reasons I disagree with, in many instances) and Dark Horse has decided not to follow it, it is the only chronology Howard ever commented on (positively, I might add). 1. The Tower of the Elephant (Weird Tales, March 1933): The earliest of the published chronicles, and one of Conan’s first adventures in the thief-city of Zamora. He is still a youth, more daring than adroit at thievery, and has yet to earn a reputation among other followers of his profession. 2. Rogues in the House (WT, Jan. 34): Conan may by this time be 19 or even 20. He is temperamentally older and more experienced, as well as very definitely a harder customer. Getting his first taste of professional fighting and Hyborian intrigue, he rather likes the idea, and with a horse of his own he sets out to crack the western world. 3. Queen of the Black Coast (WT, May 34): Covering Conan’s career as chief of the black corsairs and lover of Belit. He may be about 23 at the time he arrives in Argos, and 26 or 27 when Belit is killed. 4. Black Colossus (WT, June 33): The Khoraja episode. At this time, Conan may be about 27. He stays in Cimmeria only for a short time before wandering again. (The first Kozak career starts here. It is defined by Yildiz beingthe King of Turan) 5. Shadows in the Moonlight (WT, Apr 34): The short episode between the defeat and scattering of the kozak hordes by Shah Amurath and Conan's taking over of Sergius' pirates. He is about 28. 6. A Witch Shall be Born (WT, Dec 34): The adventure in Khauran. Yezdigerd's empire-builders are already being felt along the border, but the western states seem too busy with internal bickering and intrigues to notice the danger. v Conan is 30 when he joins the Zuagirs; 31 when he leaves them. 7. Shadows in Zamboula (WT, Nov 35): Conan has just left the Zuagirs, far to the south along the north-eastern border of Stygia, where black slaves are common and dangerous. After his brush with a mixture of cannibals and sorcery, he sets out for Ophir with a gem and a horse. (Second Kozak career. Yezdigerd is now king of Turan,and Conan is a Kozak chief) 8. The Devil in Iron (WT, Aug 34): The height of the second kozak episode. Somewhere about 32 or 33, he makes the kozaks a real threat to King Yezdigerd, before feeling the urge to be off and riding south to Vendhya. 9. The People of the Black Circle (WT, Sep 34): The Vendhyan episode. Conan rises quickly to chieftainship of the Afghulis, who understand the language of the sword, and may be nearly 34 when he goes back to his kozaks. 10. The Slithering Shadow (WT, Sep 33): The episode in Xuthal, with mention of the campaign with Amalrus. Conan should now be about 35, and being completely broke will not waste time in the relatively poor country of the black tribes, south of the desert.(Conan's career as a Barachan pirate goes here) 11. The Pool of the Black One (WT, Oct 33): The end of Conan's stay with the Barachans, and the beginning of his career as a Zingaran buccaneer. He is about 37 at the end of this episode. 12. Red Nails (WT, July 36): The end of Conan's buccaneer days, and the story of his trek to the south with Valeria, to Xuchotl and its dragons, and other parts unknown. 13. Jewels of Gwahlur (WT, Mar 35): The adventure in Keshan. Conan may be a little over 38 at the this stage in his career. 14. Beyond the Black River (WT, May 35): Conan as a scout in Conajohara, fighting against the Pictish wizard, Zogar Sag. This is very shortly before he seized the throne; he may be 39. 15. The Phoenix on the Sword (WT, Dec 32): The first revolt against Conan's rule. He was about 40 when he seized the throne of Aquilonia, and is nearly 41 at this time. 16. The Scarlet Citadel (WT, Jan 33): The war with Koth and Ophir. This is Conan's first war with other kingdoms. It follows very shortly after the civil war, when Aquilonia is still weakened by revolt. 17. The Hour of the Dragon (WT, Dec 35): The last of the published chronicles, describing the war with Nemedia in which Conan came within a hair's breadth of losing life and kingdom completely. The episode itself takes well over a year, and Conan is about 45 when he finally regains his throne. Howard had this to say of this chronology: " Your outline follows his career as I have visualized it pretty closely. The differences are minor. That means that (a) something has to be changed, and (b) any change should be minor. The only obvious change that is required is to put the story "The slithering shadow" (bolded up there in position 10) to an earlier spot, probably right before 6 "a witch shall be born". Why? Because in "The devil in iron" (position 8), Conan refers to the events of "the slithering shadow". Another change that Miller and Clark wouldn't have know about is that the story "Beyond the Black River" likely occurs much earlier than here, because in the (unpublished) story "Wolves beyond the border", a character remembers how Conan, now trying to topple king Numedides of Aquilonia, had become a legend as a scout against the Picts many years earlier (during the character's youth). That, I think, would suffice to fill the "minor differences" mentioned by Howard. |
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Post by paulie on May 28, 2014 15:07:46 GMT -5
This is the chronology that I follow as I noted above. REH seems to take a 'seems reasonable' approach to the ages. I've just taken the liberty of sliding the ages back a little which seems reasonable considering the kind of age these stories take place in.
Tower of the Elephant, Frost Giant's Daughter and Rogues in the House all seem to be the stories of someone just beyond puberty.
I've also thought that his time with Belit lasted about 5 years and spanned the end of his virile teenage years and into early manhood. RT seemed to think so too as the relationship covered issues 58-100 of CTB.
We never got to see how long Conan spent with the Zuagir's. I'd have trusted how Roy 'vibed' it as much as anyone.
My point matters not but it does not seem to disagree with REH's original ordering of things.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 15:16:41 GMT -5
REH didn't put all that much thought to the ordering of the stories though, he appreciated the effort by fans, but he always conceived of the Conan stories as being told by an older warrior around the campfire relating his exploits w/o much concern for chronology or how it all fit together. He wasn't looking to tell a comprehensive account of Conan's life, he was looking to tell exciting stories that would sell so he could earn a living. Ordering it all was very much a fan reaction, not a Howard concern, and he was flattered by the boys attempt and attention in creating the chronology, but it wasn't something he thought of in more than the broadest strokes himself.
-M
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 28, 2014 15:50:50 GMT -5
This is the chronology that I follow as I noted above. REH seems to take a 'seems reasonable' approach to the ages. I've just taken the liberty of sliding the ages back a little which seems reasonable considering the kind of age these stories take place in. Tower of the Elephant, Frost Giant's Daughter and Rogues in the House all seem to be the stories of someone just beyond puberty. I've also thought that his time with Belit lasted about 5 years and spanned the end of his virile teenage years and into early manhood. RT seemed to think so too as the relationship covered issues 58-100 of CTB. We never got to see how long Conan spent with the Zuagir's. I'd have trusted how Roy 'vibed' it as much as anyone. My point matters not but it does not seem to disagree with REH's original ordering of things. Oh, I thought you had it quite right; I just pasted the chronology for completion's sake (and to reiterate how much I dislike the so-called "dark storm chronology" that Dark Horse mostly follows  . I agree about Frost Giant's Daughter occurring very early (I'd even say it's likely to be the first one, chronologically) even if De Camp placed it later. I, too, tend to trust Roy about these things since his Conan is the first one I knew about and that he's always proven himself to be a pretty good historian when it comes to things like comic-book chronologies. However, as mrp points out, these things should all be taken with a grain of salt since Howard himself did not define a proper chronology. |
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Post by paulie on May 28, 2014 15:58:20 GMT -5
The Dark Horse King Conan's I've read have been excellent.
I never read the Busiek or Wood versions and frankly they would be in line behind SSOC 200 - 235 and a reread of Conan 160- 200 before I'd even get to those. So I'll probably skip 'em.
I have the new Van Lente #1 however.
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Post by paulie on May 28, 2014 15:58:47 GMT -5
And... I have lots to say about Conan 241 - 275 so this thread will not be hijacked!
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Post by Fan of Bronze on May 28, 2014 18:43:44 GMT -5
...snip...I've also thought that his time with Belit lasted about 5 years and spanned the end of his virile teenage years and into early manhood. RT seemed to think so too as the relationship covered issues 58-100 of CTB. ...snip... I always thought Thomas was pushing it a bit when he had Conan's time with Bêlit last three and one-half years (43 monthly issues, though there was an unfortunate run lasting about five issues during which Conan's Queen was absent). My recollection of the timing in Howard's story is "several months," which I could see stretch out to perhaps a year and a half. And really, I don't begrudge Thomas the extra issues, because that period of Conan's life did make for some terrific comics. But I've always doubted that Conan and Bêlit spent more than a couple of years together. |
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Post by Fan of Bronze on May 28, 2014 18:51:43 GMT -5
Lord El-Ron? Really?? So was Roy making a dig at Scientology in this story? I don't know if Thomas did or didn't have the scientology writer in mind with this story. Nothing I've noticed really points in that direction. Still, I couldn't help thinking, over and over while reading the story and writing about it, of the Wasteland story about some guy's friend Elron (Elron this, and Elron that, throughout the story), who did turn out to be L. Ron Hubbard. |
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Post by Fan of Bronze on May 28, 2014 19:06:08 GMT -5
How does this second Roy Thomas run compare with his first? I've never seen anything from this era, I don't think, or anything at all after no. 115. I'm not ready to commit to an opinion yet on this second run as a whole. As I stated earlier, this will be the first time I've read these comics without waiting a month between issues (which, since the early 1980s, has done no favors to many of the titles I have read). It may be, though, that no fair comparison can be drawn between the two runs. In the earlier run, Thomas had wide latitude with the character, and was even able to create titles ( Savage Tales, Savage Sword, Red Sonja, King Conan) into which he could expand his own personal Hyborian Age. Also, he was able to use text pages in the B&Ws to provide a (quasi) scholarly background on the Howard texts. Those conditions seemed not to exist in the 1990s, and the breadth of Thomas's aspirations in those latter years seems more limited. Still and all, the scripting so far seems spot on to me, and I am really grateful to Mike Rockwitz for reuniting Thomas with his barbarian, some 10 years on. |
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Post by Fan of Bronze on May 28, 2014 19:32:53 GMT -5
...snip...My main gripe (and that's a strictly personal opinion) is that Roy relied too much on revisiting old characters and storylines. It's fine to have recurring characters, but in the primitive world of the Hyborian age it's unlikely that people would keep running into each other again and again; the very idea of criss-crossing the entire Eurasian landmass again and again stretches credibility. Red Sonja is there half the time; Zula as well; Fan of Bronze just told us how Karanthes and Zukala show up again, as will Yaila from issue #12, the big bats from issue #6 make an appearance, as does Ursla the bear priestess... It's okay to revisit some old concepts, but after a while it feels a bit forced; it makes the world feel much smaller. ...snip... A couple of thoughts... I wonder how much this might have to do with an outlook expressed by Thomas (IIRC) about the time (1980) he left Marvel for DC, that he wasn't going to do any more creation of characters for publishers for mere page rates. Who can blame him? Thomas was no fool, and the whole Siegel-Shuster thing would have still been fresh in people's minds, having been resolved only ca. 1978. Then, too, one of my joys in reading Thomas's Conan comics, particularly when it comes to characters created by Howard, is how Thomas is always game to tell the stories that Howard didn't tell; e.g., of how Conan and another character first met, or of how their mutual loyalties were formed. ...snip...An excellent decision by Roy was to ignore the jump of many months that then-writer J. M. DeMatteis had decided on to avoid retelling the stories "Hawks over Shem" (SSoC 36) and "Black colossus" (SSoC #2). The original strategy for handling tales already adapted in SSoC had been to readapt them at the proper chronological moment in CtB, but DeMatteis had just skipped them before the book abandoned all pretense of following any kind of continuity. Here, Roy didn't go back all the way before "Hawks" (although some of that story would later be alluded to in flashbacks) but did thankfully bring us back to a time before Black Colossus. (I had been pretty miffed in the early 80s when all the preparatory work done by Roy for the eventual re-adaptation of "Hawks" had just been wasted by his successor). ...snip... I guess I wasn't aware of the plan to retell previously adapted stories in CtB. "Hawks over Shem," I think, would have been conspicuously inappropriate, due to the short time elapsed since its adaptation in SSoC, in the Dec. 1978 issue. I do remember wondering what Thomas had in mind for the later Howard stories in CtB, before it became clear that he wouldn't be around to handle them a second time, but it all became moot with the 1980 termination of his writer-editor contract with Marvel. |
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Post by paulie on May 28, 2014 21:08:36 GMT -5
Great work on this thread guys!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 29, 2014 8:31:18 GMT -5
Agreed, and it is all to Rockwitz' credit that he also allowed the return of the scholarly approach (at least in SSoC), as exemplified by the frequent letters of Steve Tompkins in Swords and scrolls. Prior to Roy's return, letters tended to be in the vein of "Can Conan fight the Punisher, please?" After Roy's return, we once again (as in the 70s) had discussions about the character, his world and the storylines. There were also fun features like the fake Conan movie allegedly having been prepared in the late 30s.
Personally I wouldn't have minded seeing Hawks over Shem again in CtB, even if there had only been a few years since the SSoC adaptation. The political situation in Asgalun had been presented in CtB 93 (Dec 1978, as well), and the character of Akhirom had been introduced in that issue. When Roy left with issue 115, Oct 1980, Conan was back in Shem; I figure that given the usual steady and systematic plot building typical of Roy's writing, Conan would have reached the city of Akkharia after a few issues (say in issue 118), found a job as a mercenary there, had a few adventures (up to issue 122, say), then the story involving the betrayal of the Akkharian troops by Othbaal could also have taken a few issues (bringing us up to 124) in time to get Conan in Asgalun for the anniversary 125th issue featuring the start of the new version of Hawks. (Anniversary issues were a bigger deal in those days). That would have been the Aug 1981 issue, a couple of years after the initial adaptation. By way of comparison, that's roughly the amount of time elapsed between the publication of Black Colossus in SSoC and its reprinting in Marvel Treasury Edition #15, with the added benefit of being a new (probably less cramped) adaptation instead of a reprint. But that's alas really neither here nor there since that timeline will never be realized, Superboy Prime punch or no!!!
Looking forward to the next instalment of your reviews, FoB!!!
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Post by Fan of Bronze on May 30, 2014 20:38:50 GMT -5
Conan the Barbarian #243 (Marvel, April 1991)
"The Sorcerer and the She-Devil" part 3 of 3 (cover title)
"Dawn and Death-Gods," 22pp.
Roy Thomas: writer (with uncredited plot assist by Dann Thomas)
Gary Hartle: penciler
Mike DeCarlo: inker
Mike Heisler: letterer
Nel Yomtov: colorist
Mike Rockwitz: editor
Tom DeFalco: editor in chief
Conan awakes in his bunk on the "Tigress," and senses something amiss. When Bêlit appears, though, he puts his misgivings aside, only to be interrupted when a Stygian galley attacks. Conan gives himself to battle, only to be betrayed by Bêlit, as well as by some of her pirates.
The entire scenario is revealed to be a torment by Jaggta-Noga, who plucked the likenesses of Bêlit and the pirates from Conan's memory. As the illusion fades, Noga taunts Conan, now bound in Noga's domain. The demon shows Conan that the wedding between El-Ron and Sonja is beginning, and taunts Conan further until Conan escapes his bonds. Conan grabs his knife, and—surprise!—finds that it, unlike his sword, is capable of drawing blood from Noga. Noga is unconcerned, though; the knife wounds are but pinpricks, while nothing could harm Noga but Noga himself—and Noga is one with his realm. Grasping a logic that Noga seems to have missed, Conan breaks off a stalactite and runs Noga through with it.
With Noga disabled, Conan is able to return to Castle Zukala, just in time to prevent completion of the wedding ceremony. He, with Sonja (wearing battle dress under her wedding gown), takes out a guard detail, and then Conan wounds El-Ron critically. Sonja is upset; she was supposed to kill El-Ron in their wedding bed, for which Karanthes was going to pay her a roomful of gold. El-Ron, though, isn't fully disabled; perhaps it's Zukala acting through him, but his body still wields a sword. Worse, the bridge troll, the gargoyles, and another supernatural guardian appear to defend him. Conan takes the devils, while Sonja confronts Zukala/El-Ron, but he takes no notice of the wounds she inflicts.
Abruptly, Conan's devils become immobile. Sonja, though, is losing ground to Zukala/El-Ron. Learning from Karanthes that the devils may speak only when Zukala speaks through El-Ron, Conan decapitates El-Ron, and Zukala fades away.
Able, at last, to question Karanthes, Conan learns that the priest enchanted Conan's knife (but not his sword), accounting for his ability to injure Jaggta-Noga with the knife (it had been a deception to make Noga feel invincible). The immediate danger past, Conan prepares to resume his journey southward, seeking pay in the army being raised against Natohk. Sonja decides to join him; she's had enough of sorcery for a while. On Karanthes's face appears an ironic smile.
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This issue's cover is by Whilce Portacio. I don't know what it is with these hot '90s artists, but neither McFarlane's (#241), Lee's (#242), nor Portacio's Conan covers do a darn thing for me.
I liked seeing Bêlit again. I found the bit in Jaggta-Noga's domain unremarkable; I've seen demons in caves before (Magik comes to mind), and if writer or artist brought anything new to the concept here, then it slid right past me.
As reliably as in a Hollywood movie, the story ended up pitting protagonist Conan against antagonist El-Ron for a one-on-one fight. Sonja got her licks in, too, as Zukala/El-Ron proved more resilient than expected.
The four devils sequence is the most awkward. Three of the four are clearly identifiable from previous issues—the bridge troll from #241, the two gargoyles from #242—but the fourth demon is not clearly identified. There's a good chance it was intended to be the southern guardian that I found so conspicuous in #242, but in this issue, he's got horns extending from temple to mouth that weren't apparent last issue (maybe the shadows were just too deep in #242). What's really odd, though, is the way they all become completely unmoving at the peak of their fight with Conan. A page later, we get Karanthes's curious statement that they "may speak only when Zukala speaks through El-Ron," but they went immobile several panels prior to Conan's ensuring that El-Ron would speak no more. An art error that couldn't be fixed in the script? Perhaps.
For the third time in three issues, we are teased with mention of the prophet Natohk. There was a big reveal concerning Natohk (and his name) in Thomas's and Buscema's earlier adaptation of Howard's "Black Colossus" that I still remember now, even though I haven't read the thing in decades. So, this was planting seeds, yes, for new readers, letting them know that something was coming up. At the same time, though, for readers who had been around for Savage Sword of Conan #2, it's a clear signal that "Black Colossus" is coming up again, this time in the CtB chronology. I think I'm going to have to do what I never found time to do in 1991, and read both versions, back-to-back.
I am reading issues now faster than I am able to write about them. The Dann Thomas contribution to this story was revealed in the letters page of #246; in fact, she assisted Roy T. in plotting this entire three-parter (#s 241–243).
If I were to mention the writing, art, coloring, or editing, I would simply repeat the sentiments I've expressed regarding the previous two issues. I will again praise the lettering, though. Three issues so far, and I haven't found a single misspelled word (try finding one issue of Uncanny X-Men without a spelling error). I think maybe Thomas was proofreading these pages after the lettering was completed.
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Post by paulie on Jun 5, 2014 14:40:20 GMT -5
Quoting - ((((((If I were to mention the writing, art, coloring, or editing, I would simply repeat the sentiments I've expressed regarding the previous two issues. I will again praise the lettering, though. Three issues so far, and I haven't found a single misspelled word (try finding one issue of Uncanny X-Men without a spelling error). I think maybe Thomas was proofreading these pages after the lettering was completed.))))) End Quote
I think on Shooter's blog he was clear to note that even though the writer-editor policy needed to go Roy Thomas was the one guy who seemed to handle it ok... no spelling errors, misused words, etc.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 6, 2014 5:39:39 GMT -5
I can't say that I ever noticed more errors in books handled by writer/editors than in books where they were two distinct persons. In the case of the Conan books, a devoted writer/editor like Roy certainly did a better job than the writers and editors who replaced him and didn't bother to check back issues or the source material.
Another good job, Fan Of Bronze! I'm with you on the appreciation of this story: it didn't always hit the target, but it was firmly reestablishing the book in continuity. both references to the Bêlit days and to the upcoming appearance of Natohk were extremely welcome by this reader! Even the so-so art didn't bother me too much if it meant Roy could do his thing again.
The three Image artists covers were encouraging in one aspect, even if I wasn't much into that style: they showed that Marvel wanted the book to sell. Always a good sign!
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. I agree about Frost Giant's Daughter occurring very early (I'd even say it's likely to be the first one, chronologically) even if De Camp placed it later. 
