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Post by The Captain on Jul 16, 2014 12:55:52 GMT -5
Ish - I understand that completely, as I don't buy into the advanced fielding metrics 100% either, but I think they should be part of the discussion. We tend to remember the spectacular plays because they aren't usual and because we see them over and over again on highlight shows, but the average fan can't really tell that a player has lost a step to his left/right or that he breaks on a ball just a little slower than he used to, which is what the advanced metrics try to quantify.
And in all fairness, I'm not a Yankees fan (OK, I'm an avowed Yankees hater), so I'm probably harsher on them and their players than an impartial viewer would be. I've been a Pirates fan all my life, and it's always stuck in my craw that a team with seemingly unlimited resources due to their geographic location can buy up as many All-Stars as they want while the smaller, less-attractive markets are left with only a handful of years with developing stars before some large market waves a fistful of cash in front of them and lures them away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 13:27:46 GMT -5
Somehow Dan is able to look at some statistical pages and is able to judge a persons fielding ability as being historically bad. I guess I was mistaken since watching Jeter live or on TV constantly for 20 years to think he was an asset at shortstop.Sure hands,average range laterally,extraodinary range going back and a powerful and accurate arm.I Yeah, you were, by any baseball metric known to man. "Average range laterally" is a joke where the guy was concerned, & was even when he was young; anyone not drowning in Yankees Kool-Aid is painfully aware of that. Pretending otherwise & invoking the ol' eyesight test just doesn't cut it these days. The fact that he may not be necessarily muffing easy grounders isn't where his deficiency lies; rather, he fall down when it comes to preventing hits that a better, or even an average, SS would've gotten to. He really should be known, at this late date, as Derek "Past a Diving" Jeter. I mean, I'm happy to pretend that my favorite player as a kid, Harmon Killebrew, was the greatest power hitter ever. I saw him hit lots of balls really, really far, so therefore I'm right. Right? Uh ... nope. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 16, 2014 13:35:26 GMT -5
I'll tell you this Rich,if Jeter was anywhere's close to the bad fielder those stats might make him out to be,the NY media would have been making a stink about it all these years.They never went out of their way to protect him.They would comment more on how he frustrates the reporters by never saying anything controversial and never revealing his feelings.There would have been scores of articles about Jeter and A-Rod flipping positions or putting Jeter into the outfield.They were never written because when you actually watched him play every day it was never an issue. I won't argue that he probably lost a step or so the last few years thats normal when you're 40.I don't see it just now as hurting the team
Believe it or not I can sympathize with small market teams.But some have owners who get very wealthy pocketing all that revenue sharing $ instead of investing it back in the team.I recall when I started following baseball in 1964,CBS bought the NY Yankees and ran it into the ground for the next 10 years.The team finished last or at best second division because CBS knew nothing about Baseball and didn't care.So my introduction was all about losing for many years
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 13:38:52 GMT -5
This would be the same NY media that happily looked the other way while a known sexual deviant & predator like Mel Hall were playing for the Yankees?
Fascinating.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 13:41:37 GMT -5
(Not saying that most, if not all, teams haven't had their share of loathsome human beings on the payroll, just saying that the media are all too often happy to roll over & wag their tails, playing hear-/see-/speak-no-evil in return for continued access & such. Doesn't matter if we're talking New York or Bug Tussle.)
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 16, 2014 13:44:50 GMT -5
Dan-I'll soon be able to share with you some statistical measurements proving conclusively that Frank Robbins was a superior draftsman during the 1973-1975 seasons.Don't rely on your eyes.His anatomy scores high on a stroke per panel basis
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 16, 2014 13:48:52 GMT -5
This would be the same NY media that happily looked the other way while a known sexual deviant & predator like Mel Hall were playing for the Yankees? Fascinating. Is the NY media any worse then the education departments of most states,the Walt Disney corporation as reported yesterday or the Vatican? Anyway I forgot about Mel Hall but I remember the Luis Polonia "I thought she was 18" story |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 13:53:25 GMT -5
Hall occurred to me as an example because this story just appeared. It's utterly revolting. If Polonia (whose case I also remember much more clearly) was an "I thought she was 18" guy, Hall was pretty much in the "yeah, she's 12; what of it?" camp. As for Disney, various education departments or the Vatican, I don't think anyone is invoking their (far-from-)brutal honesty as testament to Derek Jeter's adequacy with a glove. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 13:58:51 GMT -5
Dan-I'll soon be able to share with you some statistical measurements proving conclusively that Frank Robbins was a superior draftsman during the 1973-1975 seasons.Don't rely on your eyes.His anatomy scores high on a stroke per panel basis See, that's the thing. The only metrics, AFAIK, with comics & other creative fields are, I guess, sales figures (the use of which assures us that Rob Liefeld, Frank Miller & the like are gods among men, I suppose). With baseball ... well, I'm sorry. It's a numbers game. My understanding is there are box scores & all sorts of things. We can all have fun watching games till our eyes bleed & disregarding who's winning, what players are batting, the ERA of who they're hitting against, etc. etc. etc. ... but in my eyes we're missing a rather important dimension of the game. Perhaps I'm mistaken, though. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 16, 2014 14:09:40 GMT -5
You can trot out whatever defensive calculations thats in vogue this year but it won't change what I've seen.I've got plenty of Met fans as well and even they never jumped on that bandwagon.
I knew there was a reason I never liked Mel Hall back then but all I knew was his treatment against Bernie Williams.That girls' parents should be prosecuted as well but its probably too late for that.It was a terrible Yankee team when he was there.Hope he rots in jail.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 14:12:33 GMT -5
You can trot out whatever defensive calculations thats in vogue this year but it won't change what I've seen.I've got plenty of Met fans as well and even they never jumped on that bandwagon. Well, they're Mets fans. They wouldn't know decent baseball if it hit them in the face. |
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Post by mrc1214 on Jul 16, 2014 14:30:37 GMT -5
You can trot out whatever defensive calculations thats in vogue this year but it won't change what I've seen.I've got plenty of Met fans as well and even they never jumped on that bandwagon. Well, they're Mets fans. They wouldn't know decent baseball if it hit them in the face. How dare you sir!! Being a Mets fan saves me from watching baseball because i start the season with no hope.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 14:37:01 GMT -5
I gather they've actually played pretty decently so far this year. Might be better than the Yankees (given recent injuries), even, in this odd off year for both the Yanks & Red Sox.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 14:44:46 GMT -5
If by off year for the Sox you mean at the All Star Break they have a worse record than any team not in Texas (Astros & Rangers), sure it's an off year...  or they could just stink this year. -M |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 16, 2014 14:47:56 GMT -5
Why did I click on that Mel Hall link?
Hall must have really wanted to beat Ty Cobb for that coveted "worst person in all baseball history" position.
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or they could just stink this year. 
