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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 7, 2018 4:58:46 GMT -5
All right, we just got proof that Saudi twitter agents are much worse at their job than Russian ones.
Canada is currently engaging in a shouting match with Saudi Arabia, after the Liberals (in a very rare display of moral fortitude) strongly pushed for the kingdom to release its new batch of prisoners of opinion. Both ambassadors were booted out of the countries, and now Saudi Aarabia is cutting the grants to its 7000 students in Canada.
Amid all the chest thumping, twitter now sees a lot of Saudi messages backing... the independence of Quebec.
That’s basically the equivalent of backing the independence of Wales from the U.K. Someone must have googled “Canada” and chose whatever mention of a fire they could find to throw oil on it (pun intended), with little understanding of how out of date the information was. I almost expect that next they will target the price of coffee at Tim Horton!s, or the dismal results of Montreal’s hockey team in the last decade.
“Hey, comic-book fans... Wally West is a better flash than Barry Allen! Now let chaos reign on the board!”
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 7, 2018 9:54:34 GMT -5
No, he's not. The Iran treaty accomplished its desired goal of stalling the country's development of nuclear weapons for the foreseeable future. Everyone agreed that it was working. Scrapping it for self-serving partisan reasons was proof that Trump doesn't care about peace but just about how he looks to his hawkish fans. Such an extremely ill-advised decision just gives Iran more incentives to get nukes, since apparently it is the only thing that can get it any modicum of respect (because the sanctity of a country's signature is apparently so much cheeseburger sauce at the bottom of a napkin for Trump). And look who's paying Tehran a visit today: North Korea's foreign minister! No doubt to talk about cultural exchanges and building an accordion factory.
Threatening one's allies with a daft "you're with us or against us" is also in extremely poor form. Oh, sure, The U.S. have the economic clout to force other countries to go along with their unfair decisions... but it just sends the message that the days of America as the leader of the free world are over. Trump's vision of America is not that of an inspiring, fair and honest broker, but that of a bully that forces others to do what it wants under threat of economic retaliation. No wonder, too, since Trump is a classic bully: he attacks those he views as weaker, and rolls over in front of a bigger bully like Putin.
Hopefully Congress will realize that the president's irrational threats ill serve the country's standing among other nations and will temper his impulses with a good dose of pragmatism. Otherwise The U.S. will see its image as a world leader fade more and more, paving the way for a more stable and rational successor like China. (And I'm not sure I want that!)
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Post by The Captain on Aug 7, 2018 10:15:52 GMT -5
On the "Antifa" subject, some members of the "group" took some time to harass two conservative activists (Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk, from the Turning Point USA super PAC) while they were doing the despicable act of...eating breakfast in a Philadelphia restaurant on Monday morning. They apparently threw items at the pair from outside the eatery, including dousing Kirk with a cup of water as he attempted to leave, saying they met his "disgusting, homophobic, racist presence" with "some proper Philadelphia hostility".
I understand disagreeing with people, and counter-protesting when the situation calls for it, but it is actions like these that do nothing but give ammunition to the Donald Trumps of the world to rally his troops against the "intolerant left". Maybe these two ARE the devil incarnate, but at the time of this "attack" (which I use loosely, as there was no real physical harm done to either of them), they were doing nothing more than an act that millions of people do every day without incident. It's hard to get people to listen to your points, no matter how rational those points may be, if your methods to get them across are viewed as unreasonable or extreme, and harassing these two, no matter how odious they may be, while they are simply having a bite to eat is not going to be any help to the cause. It will drive people in the opposite direction, even some who might be inclined to agree, because they won't want to be seen as supporting unprovoked violence or harassment.
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 7, 2018 12:26:55 GMT -5
I'm not interested in having a flame war with you 'cee' about splitting terms on Russian terminology. I said where I get my information, you don't accept it, so fine. If it's a conspiracy to say Stalin and Putin were communists or they were not 'real' communists. Fine. Whatever. Anyone who even pretended to be one is my enemy. Putin is a murdering lying thug who will never give up ay power and he learned from the communists directly when he worked with them. He used the fear and authority of the communist party at one time until now he has his own fear and authority. If he were 'deposed' by more truly true communists there'd be no big change or improvement for Russians and they would still find out how free they really are to leave which is not if the state or fascist at the top doesn't want them to.
I think you're not far off from a lot of political extremist trolls online basically, so can't imagine any point in communicating. I don't know if you are in Russia or what your connection is to the place to defend it at such lengths, I'll admit I am no expert, but I'm with Canada and the U.S. and I'm not buying. Communism is inherently evil. Putin is evil. And there's very few things I would give that term to. Any attempts at false equivalents will fail because Democracy is not inherently evil. We have to get it away from a Putin admiring would-be fascist dictator, that's all. And unlike in Russia and China, so far he can't cement himself in the position permanently. There are Trump supporters now wearing shirts saying better Russia than Democrats, that's is b.s. and defending Russia ought to strip all these fools of their Reagan memorabilia if all the other things they've said opposite to him didn't.
Pravda and Russia Today are pure propaganda instruments. Fox news and Brietbart show little difference. I stand against it as all the same brand of manipulative junk, I don't put up with trying to claim anything else for them or that they are being unfairly misrepresented like the Billionaire victim Trump is always whining about being misrepresented. Tough cookies. Communist thug or fascist gangster, I don't care, I don't want anything to do with it whatever the label. Winston Churchill knew what was real from a bunch of deceptive obfuscating words and I "will never surrender" If you think that's funny or to be mocked I hope you and comrade Vladimir find out the hard way a.s.a.p. how wrong you are.
Good day.
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 7, 2018 12:31:45 GMT -5
it is actions like these that do nothing but give ammunition to the Donald Trumps of the world to rally his troops against the "intolerant left". Absolutely! Stunts and tantrums are not being the adult in the room. We need at least two parties for a democracy. One being the bigger mess right now the other will have to be the grown-up or at least have it together and focus on the most important things... and putting aside wish-lists for later.
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Post by badwolf on Aug 7, 2018 12:54:43 GMT -5
On the "Antifa" subject, some members of the "group" took some time to harass two conservative activists (Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk, from the Turning Point USA super PAC) while they were doing the despicable act of...eating breakfast in a Philadelphia restaurant on Monday morning. They apparently threw items at the pair from outside the eatery, including dousing Kirk with a cup of water as he attempted to leave, saying they met his "disgusting, homophobic, racist presence" with "some proper Philadelphia hostility". Have you seen the video? At one point they just start screaming/screeching... it's beyond bizarre.
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 7, 2018 12:57:31 GMT -5
We also have to watch out our democracies don't end up with sham elections such as communist and former communist countries are known for, the interference in European, and American elections from Russians should be total red alert time. I see more attempts at changing the system lately; proportional representation, redrawing electoral districts, throwing out oversight and regulations that were found to be necessary the hard way... maybe there should be a total freeze on any changes except that go back to what had been established and was working for decades/centuries given the red alert situation? I'm not against progressives, immigration, or free health care and education per se, but it's a luxury we might not have to spend time splitting hairs over wish-list things. Trade wars seem to be spreading based on splitting such hairs. Fair trade is really only possible among more-or-less equals and by equals that includes democracies. Throwing out long time allies in favor of non-democracies seems a betrayal of what we stand for. Perhaps Nixon was one of the worst Presidents in history, not for the Watergate apartment break-in so much as his great deal making with red China and backdoor maneuvering with communist Vietnam while Johnson was trying to improve that situation! We now know more than ever in this information age and we now know about DeGaulle and Nixon in relation to exacerbating the whole mess in south east Asia that cost so many lives and decades of pain. We need more open government again which Justin Trudeau at least is promising, not finding out things afterwards like who was at Trump Tower or the white house who had actual band against them. This is all I have to offer now, I'd rather type about comics again for awhile.
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cee
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Post by cee on Aug 7, 2018 13:05:28 GMT -5
Well, you could also argue that a single private citizen without being part of any organizations could have a similar reatcion to Kirk's own brand of pernicious hate. I know I would confront him if I met him, because I find it orchestrated, intolerable and dangerous. But that goes again to my point about antifa : were they antifa? By whom and how were they identified such as? Well... of course that was from Candace Owens! From the Washington Post : "Police did not confirm Owens’s claims that the protesters were Antifa or that the pair was “ATTACKED.”" The Daily Caller reported that Kirk had opted to not press charges. And there's actually even some doubt that have been expressed it even happened they way it was reported by Owens, if it even happened. The local police even denied that claim from Owens : “They are currently following us through Philly. ALL BLACK AND HISPANIC police force protecting us as they scream.” But beyond that, again, the far right further giving life to this very conviniant scarecrow. No no no, they couldn't be protested by regular people sick of them, it must be anarchists from antifa... And even if it was, I don't find this as counter-productive as some say it is : most people aren't fully aware of who Kirk is, and that might very well prompt them to check for themselves, which is always good. When I studied political science, I became quite close friends with a few conservative students, even far extreme right ones, mostly in my own field, or law students. I respected them because they were quite honest about their values, didn't engage in propaganda, and always accepted the rhetorical rules of debate and their own shortcomings. They recongnized that a large part of their views came from history and emotion. We strongly disagreed on many things, agreed on a few (mostly about cultural identity as a concept to cherish, and takes on history and nationality), but there always was a mutual desire to understand each others before drawing conclusions that fueled the most intersting conversations. I've seen Candace Owens on TV and interviewed n The Rogen Show : she isn't interested in the conversation, and she's quite adament that her views come from emotion, turning her nto a crusader type : her agenda has become stronger than the quest for "truth", which I feel most of us here are concerned with before anything else. About what constitutes situations that calls for antagonistic responses : I for one, consider that the level of lies from this administration is a way more potent agression than most I could think of, and I can fully understand people who don't tolerate it, and are therefore intollerant of it. I might be wrong, but I fully suscribe with the idea that many fascist regimes managed to establish themselves because of a lack of push back from the people. So let's say I don't think Maxine Roberts is being completely crazy. End of rant
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Post by comicsandwho on Aug 7, 2018 13:20:35 GMT -5
Do you mean Maxine Waters, the California representative? The one who first strongly suggested these acts of 'civil disobedience' directed at...well, anyone representing any right-wing group anywhere? For many years, she has had a well-deserved reputation for being a complete moron, but this latest 'idea' of hers has far surpassed any of the forgettably trivial clueless moments she's had.
Cee, I hope you will soon 'cee' a chiropractor, because of all the bending over backwards you have been doing, justifying Russia's behavior, and now resorting to the tortured 'logic' of 'Oh, this dumb thing from this side of the spectrum is OK, because THAT dumb thing from the OTHER side is worse!' Yeah, time to go talk comics again.
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cee
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Post by cee on Aug 7, 2018 13:26:43 GMT -5
I'm not interested in having a flame war with you 'cee' about splitting terms on Russian terminology. I said where I get my information, you don't accept it, so fine. If it's a conspiracy to say Stalin and Putin were communists or they were not 'real' communists. Fine. Whatever. Anyone who even pretended to be one is my enemy. Putin is a murdering lying thug who will never give up ay power and he learned from the communists directly when he worked with them. He used the fear and authority of the communist party at one time until now he has his own fear and authority. If he were 'deposed' by more truly true communists there'd be no big change or improvement for Russians and they would still find out how free they really are to leave which is not if the state or fascist at the top doesn't want them to. I think you're not far off from a lot of political extremist trolls online basically, so can't imagine any point in communicating. I don't know if you are in Russia or what your connection is to the place to defend it at such lengths, I'll admit I am no expert, but I'm with Canada and the U.S. and I'm not buying. Communism is inherently evil. Putin is evil. And there's very few things I would give that term to. Any attempts at false equivalents will fail because Democracy is not inherently evil. We have to get it away from a Putin admiring would-be fascist dictator, that's all. And unlike in Russia and China, so far he can't cement himself in the position permanently. There are Trump supporters now wearing shirts saying better Russia than Democrats, that's is b.s. and defending Russia ought to strip all these fools of their Reagan memorabilia if all the other things they've said opposite to him didn't. Pravda and Russia Today are pure propaganda instruments. Fox news and Brietbart show little difference. I stand against it as all the same brand of manipulative junk, I don't put up with trying to claim anything else for them or that they are being unfairly misrepresented like the Billionaire victim Trump is always whining about being misrepresented. Tough cookies. Communist thug or fascist gangster, I don't care, I don't want anything to do with it whatever the label. Winston Churchill knew what was real from a bunch of deceptive obfuscating words and I "will never surrender" If you think that's funny or to be mocked I hope you and comrade Vladimir find out the hard way a.s.a.p. how wrong you are. Good day. What flame war? The only issue here is about facts and not putting words into each others mouth. But I really don't understand why you keep pushing this weird narrative that I'm defending Russia, when it is quite the opposite Stating that Putin is no communist doesn't mean I'm defending him, it's intelectually dishonest to claim so. And I've never lived in Russia, I've been there less than in the US or Canada actually. This isn't about splitting terms either, it is about history and facts. I do accept where you get your info, I'm just understanding better your odd bias, since the first quote you gave us from it contained a huge historical error. So labelling me a troll for that is very unfair, especially considering I haven't attacked you personnaly, and you said it yourself, that the stuff I corrected you on that you went to check online were indeed true, no malice there. You state you're with the US and Canada, fine. But for me it's not about sports, there's evil on both sides, and seeking more than two sides helps realize it. Where we diverge is that while not being one, I find the idea that communism being inherantly evil very strange. Have you actually read Marx and Engels? Probably not, as you keep talking about Stalin, who no one disputes implemented an evil regime. Me and others have explained already that not being a communist doesn't make Putin a good guy, even in your book, authoritarian types are authoritarian, from the left, right, AND center (yes, this has happened)! I don't even know how your last paragraph relates to me. All in all, what me and others have been saying, is that you can't fight effectively what you oppose if you misunderstand it. For some weird reason you have now fantasized the idea that I'm pro communist and pro Putin, and you should really give it a rest. Don't you find it quite counter productive when people brand nazist with socialists, because of words? Well, it's exactly the same here.
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cee
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Post by cee on Aug 7, 2018 13:39:53 GMT -5
Do you mean Maxine Waters, the California representative? The one who first strongly suggested these acts of 'civil disobedience' directed at...well, anyone representing any right-wing group anywhere? For many years, she has had a well-deserved reputation for being a complete moron, but this latest 'idea' of hers has far surpassed any of the forgettably trivial clueless moments she's had. Cee, I hope you will soon 'cee' a chiropractor, because of all the bending over backwards you have been doing, justifying Russia's behavior, and now resorting to the tortured 'logic' of 'Oh, this dumb thing from this side of the spectrum is OK, because THAT dumb thing from the OTHER side is worse!' Yeah, time to go talk comics again. First off, Right wing and conservative are two separate ways in my book. I've now lived in Europe long enough to understand the difference. I also didn't take what she said the way you seem to have. You're entitled to your opinion about her, but she has been continuously relected by her constituants for over 25 years, the last time with at least 70 percent of the vote. She's also been quite a few time in the minority but on the right side of history (The Irak war, Haïti, Obama criticism). I don't who you support politically (I personnaly find good ideas on all sides), but casting a whole electorate as morons like that, I guess that gives me a clue. Secondly, I haven't insulted you, and I certainly haven't justified Russia's behavior. So please let me know in what way I have done such a thing in your opinion. If I did it unintentionally, I will be the first to admit my semantic error. But I made no error with the claims about Henry Kissinger... If you don't think inner propaganda runs hard in the US as well, that's another issue.
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Post by comicsandwho on Aug 7, 2018 14:18:46 GMT -5
I never said anything about Waters' constituents (although many in the media have made that point about them...but take it up with those responsible). You seem rather sensitive to criticism of communism, hence the 'bending over backwards'.going to any lengths comment to describe your defense of it. It was a terrible idea from the start, that just got worse under the rule of Lenin, then Stalin. While no one can claim capitalism is ideal, it's the least-fucked-up alternative to communism...assuming the world does not go back to some medieval 'bartering' arrangement. Valid point that the US and Soviets were great at 'out-propagandizing' one another. An as for Vietnam...De Gaulle poured the coals, LBJ lit the matches, Nixon poured gasoline on the fire. They can all share the blame(IMO, Johnson escapes criticism too easily).
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 7, 2018 15:30:42 GMT -5
An as for Vietnam...De Gaulle poured the coals, LBJ lit the matches, Nixon poured gasoline on the fire. They can all share the blame(IMO, Johnson escapes criticism too easily). The odd thing is that Johnson, going by some of the tapes more recently released, actually knew pretty well what they were getting into. I was surprised to hear him saying there wasn't a thing in it for the U.S. but a mess, or something to that effect. Was all in the recent Lynn Novick and Ken Burns doc series along with the stuff that Nixon cut some kind of wait-until-I-get-in 'deal' with Hanoi behind the back while Johnson the President was working toward something with the Paris talks. Reagan did the same with the Iran hostage situation and weapons sales to them, could be considered treason to undermine the sitting U.S. pres like that but Johnson didn't talk at the time about what he knew Nixon had done, and Oliver North protected Reagan. Nixon promised all kinds of things about the Vietnam war to get elected, promises not kept as stated and intimations of if people just trusted him he would deliver 'honorable' solutions which he simply didn't have unless it was expanded bombing. Fanatics are the most motivated. I might have done better to use that term in place of extremist. Had to block, very rare for me, sorry. Whatever I may have gotten technically wrong (and not from nowhere or websites) just doesn't seem very important to me and somehow kept getting personal. Door closed.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 7, 2018 15:36:11 GMT -5
On the "Antifa" subject, some members of the "group" took some time to harass two conservative activists (Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk, from the Turning Point USA super PAC) while they were doing the despicable act of...eating breakfast in a Philadelphia restaurant on Monday morning. They apparently threw items at the pair from outside the eatery, including dousing Kirk with a cup of water as he attempted to leave, saying they met his "disgusting, homophobic, racist presence" with "some proper Philadelphia hostility". I understand disagreeing with people, and counter-protesting when the situation calls for it, but it is actions like these that do nothing but give ammunition to the Donald Trumps of the world to rally his troops against the "intolerant left". Maybe these two ARE the devil incarnate, but at the time of this "attack" (which I use loosely, as there was no real physical harm done to either of them), they were doing nothing more than an act that millions of people do every day without incident. It's hard to get people to listen to your points, no matter how rational those points may be, if your methods to get them across are viewed as unreasonable or extreme, and harassing these two, no matter how odious they may be, while they are simply having a bite to eat is not going to be any help to the cause. It will drive people in the opposite direction, even some who might be inclined to agree, because they won't want to be seen as supporting unprovoked violence or harassment. Agreed 100%! I read the graphic novel The March recently (a biography of John Lewis during the struggle for civil rights). One of the key moments describes how black activists would calmly sit at a lunch counter to protest the fact that it was segregated. Then a bunch of violent, racist pr&cks would come in screaming and force them to leave. That's exactly what I saw in the video you mention. A bunch of pr$%ks forcing a black woman to leave a restaurant. They didn't do it because of her colour, but they still did it because of who she was, of what she believes, and not because she caused them harm. Such activists are NOT on the right side of history, for all that they claim Owens brought it upon herself. Having an opinion should not be cause for public harassment, especially not in such a spectacular fashion. After seeing that video and a few similar ones (provided by my conservative nephew, with whom I have an ongoing conversation on the incompetence of a certain president), I felt that Trump had a more than fair shot at getting re-elected despite his lies and blunders. Those kids just behaved awfully... like thuggish spoiled brats screaming at the adults because they don't have their way. Not the way any aternative to Trump wants to present itself, I'm sure. I also heard someone say, in a related video, that "Antifa" stood not for "anti-fascist" but for "anti-first amendment". This kind of facile slogan, coupled with video evidence that part of the left refuses to let conservatives have an opinion or to voice it without being harassed, will prove invaluable to Trump during the next campaign. No matter that such exalted youngsters represent only a tiny fraction of democrat-leaning voters... In this era where image is everything, they are doing massive damage to their own cause.
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cee
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Post by cee on Aug 7, 2018 15:55:26 GMT -5
I never said anything about Waters' constituents (although many in the media have made that point about them...but take it up with those responsible). You seem rather sensitive to criticism of communism, hence the 'bending over backwards'.going to any lengths comment to describe your defense of it. It was a terrible idea from the start, that just got worse under the rule of Lenin, then Stalin. While no one can claim capitalism is ideal, it's the least-fucked-up alternative to communism...assuming the world does not go back to some medieval 'bartering' arrangement. Valid point that the US and Soviets were great at 'out-propagandizing' one another. An as for Vietnam...De Gaulle poured the coals, LBJ lit the matches, Nixon poured gasoline on the fire. They can all share the blame(IMO, Johnson escapes criticism too easily). While I disagree that communism is in essence evil (it should be awesome!), I fully agree that appart from the attempts of Gorbatchev (who was and is a great man) and the first 3 years of the needed revolution, the soviet experience is a terible one. You won't catch me ever saying otherwise. There are indeed very few places where communism has succeeded in changing the paradigm for a better one in a sustained fashion, but there are a few (Italy, Sweden, France...). But anyone who actually understands communism (have read what it actually is) and the modern world fully aknowledges that it is in its pure form only an ideal, not reachable, since logic and experience show us that putting men in the equation too often fatally corrupts it. I'm not more sensitive about communism than about most political systems. I simply find debating those extremely interesting and rewarding. so I thrive to be accurate, that's all. If you take this as a defense of it, I must confess I'm quite surprised, as I really don't see where I defended the soviet regime here. Becca had many pre-concieved ideas about Russia and communism, and I can understand where they come from, she's not alone in this, but if correcting her on those is defending Stalinism, I guess something really got lost on the way. Of course, I disagree that capitalism is better than social democracy, whole heartidly and empiricaly, and that's my real opinion you can attack. But I'd rather not be attacked for one that isn't mine. Are we good? Now about Indochina It is my understanding that when France took control of those territories between 1860 and 1890, they were under the rule of the chinese emperor. Of course, religion always plays a part, and it all started as "protection" of the persecuted catholic minorities. This was not a great place to live in, and health, education, economy got at first much better under french colonialism, essentially because this never was an actual settlement colony. The problem is that the french administration never managed to create a truly equal society, as the more non-urban populations remained marginalized. It really starts going to hell afterWWI, with some insurections, and at the tail-end of WWII, under the very violent japanese occupation. And that's where your equation starts missing a few crucial names : Churchill, Truman & Staline decided without consulting France that Indochina would now become Chinese (in the north) and British (in the south) colonies. When the locals see the chinese army arriving, and plundering everything, a lot of them allies themselves with the french who are standing by with Leclerc (not De Gaulle). ensues a horrible chaotic fight where the british with the french, the liberated locals fight the Việt Minh , the dozen of thousand remaining and armed japanese, the colaborationist governement, etc, mixed race families are massacred, trostkist are massacred by the Việt Minh , etc. Pure chaos. Finally, order is somewhat restored in Saigon, but the british leave the mess to the french, seing how the Việt Minh is nothing they want to confront themselves with, with all the problems they are starting to face in India. So what happens is that De Gaulle actually first tries to find a way to save the situation by giving it all away back to the exiled prince/emperor Vinh San, who accepts before being killed in a plane "crash". It then becomes an opposition between Ho Chi Minh and general Leclerc (the people's hero of the WWII french army), and Ho Chi Minh allies himself with Truman to even the odds. This calms the situation majorly : the Việt Minh recognizes and allows the french military's return, and the France recognize Viet Nam as a free state (not independant, because everyone is afraid that China would take advantage of this to invade). Laos and Cambodia are in similar tense situation, and with the constant friction between the Việt Minh and the french army, civil war starts in late 1947, before turning into war. In 1950, China turns communist, and this complicates things even further. As the civil war turns dirtier with the newly communist armed Việt Minh in the north, France is seing an exode of the people from hte north to the south, and can't control the north anymore. It becomes a dirty waiting game, exhausting the french army who doesn't really know anymore if it's there to help or to maintain a sort of colonial empire. France tries one last stand and takes back in the isolated Diên Biên Phu in the North. In 1954, the inevitable happens, and the Việt Minh attacks without end the position for almost two months, killing or taking prisoners the 13000 soldiers with no escape route. In France, no one sees the point in trying to keep on after that, and by the summer, the Geneva treaty states that France will leave the whole peninsula, and the Việt Minh will leave Laos and Cambodia, even if everyone knows that Russia and China will ake advantage of that. France just doesn't have the will or the means to keep on. And that's where I don't really see why people seem to bring De Gaulle again and again in this, since he didn't held any governement position until 1958. But after all that, I think it's fair to add two names to yor equation : Kissinger and Bush sr. Kissinger, I guess I don't need to explain why, but Bush Sr was director of the CIA during the worst part of the war, and there are quite many official documents that attest a very ugly conspiracy as to why the war wasn't ended earlier, and that is wher e we fall back to comics as Alan Moore and Bill Sienkiewicz masterfully told that story in Brought to LightYou can read it there
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