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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 26, 2015 13:05:26 GMT -5
The Hyborian reporterA few photos from a Halloween party in Los Angeles where costumes were optional, and where Roy and his wife were basically the only ones showing up in disguise! It's a funny slice-of-life piece. Wings in the nightScript by Don Glut Art by David Wenzel Adapting the Solomon Kane story by Robert E. Howard Kane is still in Africa, where a menace of a peculiar kind seems to prey on mankind: a foe that apparently comes swooping down from the skies. Kane discovers that it is a race of winged, man-like creatures, and the likely inspiration for the classical legendary harpies. After killing one, he is captured by a second flying creature, which he kills in mid-flight... causing the two of them to fall to the ground. To be continued! ![](http://i.imgur.com/tgQ6gTu.jpg) In the Swords and scrolls letters column, a reader objects to a scene from the recently-published Conan the barbarian annual #5, where the soon-to-be-married King Conan sends the members of his harem away. It seems that the very idea that Conan had had a harem and that the idea was accepted by his bride-to-be was offensive, a point that Roy objects to on the basis of (a) cultural differences and (b) Howard's actual prose, wherein the future queen Zenobia had first declared that she would be happy to be the lowest member of Conan's seraglio. An interesting discussion, in any case.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 26, 2015 13:06:06 GMT -5
I'm always fascinated by the extent that continuity is adhered to across these stories (even when the "Yak helmet" comes and goes). Was Thomas just following L. Sprague Camp's notes, or had he developed a continuity of his own that the writers were adhering to?
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Post by paulie on Jan 26, 2015 13:21:39 GMT -5
I'm always fascinated by the extent that continuity is adhered to across these stories (even when the "Yak helmet" comes and goes). Was Thomas just following L. Sprague Camp's notes, or had he developed a continuity of his own that the writers were adhering to? Good question. I always thought it was a little more confusing that Roy made it out to be. I think Roquefort Raider once explained it to me as all of the Conan yarns are essentially campfire tales. Because the Nemedian Chronicles could never be verified we must accept what scraps of truth we can get from them when we reconcile certain constants. I still think it is confusing with the exception of Conan the Barbarian 1-115 where Roy pretty much followed Conan's life from age 13-16 to about 18-24 years old. ( I think Conan is much younger in Tower of the Elephant and Queen of the Black Coast than what is indicated in the Miller/Clark outline.)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 26, 2015 13:29:21 GMT -5
Hard to believe you're already over 50 issues into the series, RR! So, do you feel there's a dropping off point eventually, or is the series universally consistent throughout? As Paulie observed, there are a lot of bad issues coming up. A good rule of thumb for SSoC goes like this: if it's written by Roy Thomas, it's good unless it's bad; if it's not written by Thomas, it's bad unless it's good. There were very few really awful issues, irrespective of the writer, but when Roy isn't writing we more often than not get generic S&S stuff that's connected to Howard's vision in only the most peripheral way. Briefly, I'd describe the work of the different SSoC writers as follows: Roy Thomas: a stickler to Howard's vision, mostly adapting prose stories written by Howard or others. I view all that he wrote as canon. He really "gets" Conan, his world, and the entire pseudo-historical concept of the Hyborian Age. Michael Fleisher: doesn't care about Howard, writes fun-filled adventure stories about a wisecracking barbarian in a loincloth. Sometimes poignant, sometimes superficial, his only issue that I'd call actually important would be #90 because it introduces the devourer of souls, a character who has a certain presence... kind of like a Hyborian Age Darth Vader. Bruce Jones: doesn't care about Howard, goes from genuinely moving to pretty bad. He's clearly a good writer, but treated Conan as if he were Claw the unconquered or Wulf the barbarian. Jim Owlsey (Christopher Priest): uses the Howard terms properly, actually knows about Conan's life, didn't write much for SSoC. Don Kraar: a breath of fresh air after the Fleisher years, emphasized the grimness of the Hyborian world. Doesn't use Howard's stories, either for good or ill. Chuck Dixon: a bit like Kraar, emphasizes how tough Conan is and his stories are pretty exciting. Just like Kraar, we recognize his Conan as the real deal, but Dixon badly misuses Howard's concepts: Valeria is now a slut, there is such a thing as a Nemedian navy (Nemedia is actually landlocked), there are border incidents between Aquilonia and Vanaheim (they don't have a common border), etc. Dixon is to be credited with a battle-cry I love: "Crom, count the dead!" Larry Yakata: writes very personal stories that would make for great stand-alone tales starring someone else. His writing explores issues of morality and responsibility, and are pretty adult in their treatment; it is too bad that the Conan featured in them is unrelated to the one we know. Conan now has a brother who happens to be a sorcerer from Khitai; he was trained as a samurai in the east; there is a new country between Aquilonia and Zingara... Whaaaat? Gerry Conway and Doug Moench: neither outstanding nor bad. Their stories are kinda... there. A few other writers provided a few tales here and there; we'll get to them eventually!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 26, 2015 13:32:33 GMT -5
Hard to believe you're already over 50 issues into the series, RR! So, do you feel there's a dropping off point eventually, or is the series universally consistent throughout? As Paulie observed, there is a lot of bad issues coming up. A good rule of thumb for SSoC goes like this: if it's written by Roy Thomas, it's good unless it's bad; if it's not written by Thomas, it's bad unless it's good. There were very few really awful issues, irrespective of the writer, but when Roy isn't writing we more often than not get generic S&S stuff that's connected to Howard's vision in only the most peripheral way. Briefly, I'd describe the work of the different SSoC writers as follows: Roy Thomas: a stickler to Howard's vision, mostly adapting prose stories written by Howard or others. I view all that he wrote as canon. He really "gets" Conan, his world, and the entire pseudo-historical concept of the Hyborian Age. Michael Fleisher: doesn't care about Howard, writes fun-filled adventure stories about a wisecracking barbarian in a loincloth. Sometimes poignant, sometimes superficial, his only issue that I'd call actually important would be #90 because it introduces the devourer of world, a character who has a certain presence... kind of like a Hyborian Age Darth Vader. Bruce Jones: doesn't care about Howard, goes from touching to pretty bad. He's clearly a good writer, but treated Conan as if he were Claw the unconquered or Wulf the barbarian. Jim Owlsey (Christopher Priest): uses the Howard terms properly, actually knows about Conan's life, didn't write much for SSoC. Don Kraar: a breath of fresh air after the Fleisher years, emphasized the grimness of the Hyborian world. Doesn't use Howard's stories, either for good or ill. Chuck Dixon: a bit like Kraar, emphasizes how tough Conan is and his stories are pretty exciting. Just like Kraar, we recognize his Conan as the real deal, but Dixon badly misuses Howard's concepts: Valeria is now a slut, there is such a thing as a Nemedian navy (Nemedia is actually landlocked), there are border incidents between Aquilonia and Vanaheim (they don't have a common border), etc. Dixon is to be credited with a battle-cry I love: "Crom, count the dead!" Larry Yakata: writes very personal stories that would make for great stand-alone tales starring someone else. His writing explores issues of morality and responsibility, and are pretty adult in their treatment; it is too bad that the Conan featured in them is unrelated to the one we know. Conan now has a brother who happens to be a sorcerer from Khitai; he was trained as a samurai in the east; there is a new country between Aquilonia and Zingara... Whaaaat? Gerry Conway and Doug Moench: neither outstanding nor bad. Their stories are kinda... there. A few other writers provided a few tales here and there; we'll get to them eventually! Awesome breakdown, RR! So, to put it more simply, if I were going to buy a chunk of SSoC issues, where's the best stuff? #1 thru the #50s? Up to when Thomas departs? Just skip the Fleischer stories?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 26, 2015 13:34:01 GMT -5
I think Roquefort Raider once explained it to me as all of the Conan yarns are essentially campfire tales. Because the Nemedian Chronicles could never be verified we must accept what scraps of truth we can get from them when we reconcile certain constants. I believe that came from Howard himself as an explanation for why the Conan stories were written out of order. They were Conan's own memories of what had occurred, told around campfires at various points in time.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 26, 2015 13:39:25 GMT -5
I'm always fascinated by the extent that continuity is adhered to across these stories (even when the "Yak helmet" comes and goes). Was Thomas just following L. Sprague Camp's notes, or had he developed a continuity of his own that the writers were adhering to? (...) all of the Conan yarns are essentially campfire tales. Because the Nemedian Chronicles could never be verified we must accept what scraps of truth we can get from them when we reconcile certain constants. (...) That's the way Robert Howard himself described it, yes. He probably had a good idea of what happened when in Conan's life, but never bothered to write down an actual timeline, and very likely would not have done so had he had the opportunity. It is we pesky fans who insist on connecting all the dots! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) One of these early fans were P. Shuyler Miller and John D. Clark, who produced the first "probable outline of Conan's career" and sent it to Howard. REH was flattered that someone would go through the trouble of poring through his yarns like that, and commented "Your outline follows his career as I have visualized it pretty closely. The differences are minor", which is why it was the basis for the timeline on which De Camp's stories and later Marvel Comics' were based. Roy tried to keep a tight rein on continuity, but after he left the mag the editors had no intention of bothering with it. So you'd have characters referencing events that wouldn't happen for years, or that were impossible to know. Heh! As long as you don't insist that Iron shadows in the moon is Conan's introduction to sea life! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 26, 2015 13:49:47 GMT -5
So, to put it more simply, if I were going to buy a chunk of SSoC issues, where's the best stuff? #1 thru the #50s? Up to when Thomas departs? Just skip the Fleischer stories? The "must be read" would be #1-48. Issue #60 has an intriguing (and little-mentioned) long sequence drawn by Neal Adams; it's definitely worth a read. Issue 61 has all-Buscema art, so just for that it's worth reading too. The second Thomas era (#190-235) is also pretty darn good most of the time, even if it gets too self-referential toward the end. Outside of those runs it's really a crapshoot. I would get a Kraar or Dixon issue without hesitation, Nemedian navies notwithstanding, because the plots are usually pretty strong; issue #105, in particular, I remember as very powerful (and yet it's so simple. A great example of storytelling). But nothing that wasn't written by Thomas can't simply be forgotten, because he's the only writer who built on the established continuity.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 26, 2015 13:52:43 GMT -5
So, to put it more simply, if I were going to buy a chunk of SSoC issues, where's the best stuff? #1 thru the #50s? Up to when Thomas departs? Just skip the Fleischer stories? The "must be read" would be #1-48. Issue #60 has an intriguing (and little-mentionned) long sequence drawn by Neal Adams; it's definitely worth a read. Issue 61 has all-Buscema art, so just for that it's worth reading too. The second Thomas era (#190-235) is also pretty darn good most of the time, even if it gets too self-referential toward the end. Then it's really a crapshoot. I would get a Kraar or Dixon issue without hesitation, Nemedian navies notwithstanding, because the plots are usually pretty strong; issue #105, in particular, I remember as very powerful (and yet it's so simple. A great example of storytelling). But nothing that wasn't written by Thomas can't simply be forgotten, because he's the only writer who built on the established continuity. Thanks! I'll start with #1-48 and #60. Considering what a slow reader I am, that should tide me over for quite a while. I think, ultimately, I'd like to get at least one sample from each writer you mentioned. Even the Fleischer stories sound somewhat appealing at times.
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Post by paulie on Jan 26, 2015 14:17:56 GMT -5
(...) all of the Conan yarns are essentially campfire tales. Because the Nemedian Chronicles could never be verified we must accept what scraps of truth we can get from them when we reconcile certain constants. (...) That's the way Robert Howard himself described it, yes. He probably had a good idea of what happened when in Conan's life, but never bothered toi write down an actual timeline, and very likely would not have done so had he had the opportunity. It is is pesky fans who insist on connecting all the dots! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) One of these early fans were P. Shuyler Miller and John D. Clark, who produced the first "probable outline of Conan's career" and sent it to Howard. REH was flattered that someone would go through the trouble of poring through his yarns like that, and commented "Your outline follows his career as I have visualized it pretty closely. The differences are minor", which is why it was the basis for the timeline on which De Camp's stories and later Marvel Comics' were based. Roy tried to keep a tight rein on continuity, but after he left the mag the editors had no intention of bothering with it. So you'd have characters referencing events that wouldn't happen for years, or that were impossible to know. Heh! As long as you don't insist that Iron shadows in the moon is Conan's introduction to sea life! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I have a hard time placing Red Nails and Iron Shadows in the Moon.
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Post by paulie on Jan 26, 2015 14:19:07 GMT -5
Roy also did 66-68 as well. I think they were inventory stories.
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Post by paulie on Jan 26, 2015 14:24:22 GMT -5
The "must be read" would be #1-48. Issue #60 has an intriguing (and little-mentionned) long sequence drawn by Neal Adams; it's definitely worth a read. Issue 61 has all-Buscema art, so just for that it's worth reading too. The second Thomas era (#190-235) is also pretty darn good most of the time, even if it gets too self-referential toward the end. Then it's really a crapshoot. I would get a Kraar or Dixon issue without hesitation, Nemedian navies notwithstanding, because the plots are usually pretty strong; issue #105, in particular, I remember as very powerful (and yet it's so simple. A great example of storytelling). But nothing that wasn't written by Thomas can't simply be forgotten, because he's the only writer who built on the established continuity. Thanks! I'll start with #1-48 and #60. Considering what a slow reader I am, that should tide me over for quite a while. I think, ultimately, I'd like to get at least one sample from each writer you mentioned. Even the Fleischer stories sound somewhat appealing at times. The Fleischer plots are perfectly fine. It is his characterization of Conan that is the primary issue. That and his disregard of some obvious facets of Conan's biography that are overlooked willy-nilly. Bruce Jones is even worse.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 26, 2015 14:50:09 GMT -5
I have a hard time placing Red Nails and Iron Shadows in the Moon. As far as I'm concerned, both were placed appropriately in the original timeline (give or take a few years). Iron shadows is set after Conan has been a mercenary in the west and a Kozak, after his career as a thief and after he's had time to go back to Cimmeria and return to the south (as per Howard's letter). Red nails strikes me as a fairly late adventure, because Conan mentions having plundered enough caravans in the east to recognize jade when he sees it, and he's already had several ships under his command. Considering his first stint as a Barachan corsair or a Zingaran buccaneer is witnessed in Pool of the Black one, this points to a mid-thirties late-thirties period for Red nails. An aspect that isn't considered enough in the proposed timelines is how long it takes to cross a continent when you travel on horseback or on foot. Marco Polo certainly didn't go from Europe to Cathay and back five times during his life; even a born wanderer like Conan can't be expected to have done it too many times either! Personally, the one story that gives me headaches is Wolves beyond the border. Depending on the version considered, it forces us to place Beyond the Black river no less than eight years before Conan became king. That means The Black Stranger occurs when Conan is about 32. But then, we must accept that Conan was a famous Barachan corsair when he was about 29, and to give him time to actually become famous, it would place the start of his piratical career even earlier... leaving him little time to criss-cross the rest of the world in his mid twenties!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 26, 2015 14:51:23 GMT -5
Roy also did 66-68 as well. I think they were inventory stories. Quite so, and it showed! One of them could have been interesting because of its Ernie Colon pencils, but Ernie Chan drowned them with his inking.
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Post by paulie on Jan 26, 2015 15:07:20 GMT -5
Roy also did 66-68 as well. I think they were inventory stories. Quite so, and it showed! One of them could have been interesting because of its Ernie Colon pencils, but Ernie Chan drowned them with his inking. 66 and 67 are on the reading docket for tonight.
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