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Post by kurrgomaul on May 20, 2015 19:56:20 GMT -5
comic shops, let's face it, are a dying breed because bookstores are going out thanks to tablets...on kindle it makes book buying a much cheaper option...and, I think this goes double for comics and comic shops because they aren't as mainstream as bestseller lists for actual books....so how do you improve it so more people are visiting local shops? Free comic book day's a good idea but lets face it comics are A LOT more expensive then they were back in the day ....for a basic monthly comic you spend 4 dollars easy sometimes more, if get 10 titles a month that's almost 50 dollars a month which isn't an option for most people, so price of comics has to go down...some shops throw in a free comic if you buy a lot so that's another idea, and you know more advertsing. any ideas because I'd like to see comic shops make a comeback or else you're gonna see more and more go outta business which none wants that
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 20:14:57 GMT -5
Price back issues to reflect realized prices online. Be competitive with eBay. Don't let dollar drek take up retail space for decades, move it. Acquire more when collections come in. Buy at a dime a pop, sell at a dollar a pop.
Put your good merchandise online. Why let it fade and yellow on a wall when it could bring in revenue tomorrow?
When all those bins of comics are cleared, replace them with new TPB's and merchandise that sells. Whatever is hot at the moment combined with collectibles that will always have a market.
Cater to more than the mainstream crowd. Have signings. Have events. Make the store a hangout and more than a shop. Have a gaming night. Have a book swap night.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2015 20:17:57 GMT -5
I think comic shops need to start seeing themselves as sellers of luxury items. Comics are expensive, non-essential items, and people need to feel like they are getting value for their money, especially since local shops cannot compete with the discounts offered by online competitors. Thus, the comic shop experience, itself, has to be a desirable one. In the right neighborhood, I think you could have a successful comic shop that is clean, spacious, laid out well, has good music playing, a friendly guy behind the counter who is happy to see you when you walk in, and maybe even hot coffee available (away from the comics). It should be a can't-miss event being there each Wednesday to talk comics with the other regulars. That's something that online competitors and book stores selling trade paperbacks cannot compete with. Also, when customers talk, they recommend more products to each other.
I've even seen shops that pre bag and board all of their comics each Tuesday night and charge no additional fee for the service. Just a really nice extra that goes a long way with some customers who would be disappointed to see that online competitors do not provide such a considerate service.
Even if they don't want to go that far, comic shops have to be dedicated to creating a desirable environment where folks want to hang out, and the staff has got to be customer-friendly.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 20, 2015 20:26:38 GMT -5
Since I travel for work, I've been in ALOT of different comic book stores.. probably at least 50. It seems there are two main types... the ones that people that aren't comic book fans think of (dirty, messy, with huge piles of comics and staff that look at you funny if they don't know you), and the new wave ones that pretty much just sell trades, Pop figures, and movie tie-in paraphenalia. I think the key these days is to combine the comics with other things comic people like... CCGs, board games, baseball cards, music, toys all of the above, whatever, but still be an actual comic book store, rather than a book store that happens to focus on trades or a card store that happens to sell comics. The comic shop needs to be a happy, clean, well-lit place that is fun to hang out it. You need a good trade selection, comprehensive new stuff, and enough back issues to be interesting, but not so much that its weighing you down cash-wise. The people working there should be able to answer questions, and have intelligent conversations about comics without scoffing at people who have different interests. Most importantly, you have to price things correctly. Very few comics from the 90s are worth more than $1... don't sell #1s of long defunct Image series for $5, or jack up that Spidey appearance in Silver Sable... it turns one off... there's a happy medium between prices that allow you to make money and have a store, and being competitive enough with online prices to catch the customers walking in. There are a few out there
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 22:40:56 GMT -5
I had a private Comic Shop of which I went to for nearly 20 years and that store decided to go out of business because it was getting a pain in the neck to keep it running and the owner (my dear friend) decided to close shop and now I have to drive 2 hours to the nearest comic shop that located up north.
There are couple of others in my areas - but I don't go to them because of the high crime and the surrounding areas is so rundown that I feel unsafe going there. Because of that reason, I have to drive 2 hours to that store to get a general feel of the how the comic is faring and to see whether I like it or not. If I like it - I go to DC Comics, Marvel Comics, and Independents like Image, Dynamite, and others to order them directly through the aid of my dear friend that set it up for me. I get 20% discount for all books and that's how I do it.
With that out of the way, to me, HOW TO IMPROVE COMIC SHOPS - ...
First and Foremost, Knowledgeable Staff and friendly too.
This goes a very long way to establishing rapport and most of all they can assist you in what you are looking for and that can save you time and effort in finding a lost issue in your collection.
Second, Great Parking Facilities
If the store have good parking facilities it will do well in repeating business and make sure it's ample enough to cite you to come back for more future visits.
Third, Offer Discounts to Senior Citizens, Repeated Customers, and Deals too.
The store that I go to - offer 10% for Senior Citizens, 20% for Repeated Customers, and they even issued punch cards that every time you buy a book they punch out holes of the card and once that card had all it's hole punched the customer gets a free comic book of their choice. That's one of the deals that they do get customers in.
These three things can go a long way for a successful operation ...
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Post by Randle-El on May 20, 2015 22:50:06 GMT -5
As much as people complain about the increasing price of comics, let's be realistic -- publishers are not going to reduce prices on comics. With that understood -- I don't necessarily mind paying more money for comics purchased at an LCS vs. online or digitally, so long as the shop is giving me a compelling reason to do so. The primary advantage that shops have over online stores or digital is the ability to provide an experience instead of just a transaction. They need to provide great customer service. They need to have a presence in the community and provide events that create buzz and excitement -- sales, signings, parties, things like that. Do things like that and I think people won't mind paying retail.
Totally agreed on Overstreet by the way. I find it exceedingly bizarre that shops continue to rely on it to determine pricing for back issues, given the huge impact online sales have had on determining value for comics. Not to mention the fact that Overstreet bases its prices on reported sales data from select comic retailers -- effectively making the sources the ones setting the values for the entire market.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:32:40 GMT -5
I think the prices on a lot of hardcover trades are fantastic. I understand a comic shop cannot compete with Amazon prices, but the added luxury of not having to worry about it being destroyed in shipping as well as being able to handle the product before buying is a big bonus. I would like to see new stuff and bestsellers at cover price, and old stock reduced to encourage bargain buyers to come to the store. My favorite comic shop has a tiny back issue section, but damn near every trade and hardcover in print. No joke, it's amazing. And I'm talking right on down to the (translated) European stuff and small press. I wonder how well they're doing?
Anyway, while a shop can't compete with Amazon on new product, I don't see any reason they can't compete with eBay on old product. That would generate a ton of sales from collectors. And I have a feeling shops are regularly offered collections for pennies on the dollar anyway. My shop turns them away without even looking at them, because he has a backlog of 40,000-50,000 comics he is trying to sell already. But at his prices, it's never going to happen. It just ties up half the store with things nobody looks at, which only leaves room for about 75 current title on the walls, which doesn't even cover Marvel and DC, so the variety is understandably lacking.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 1:08:02 GMT -5
Just an reality check for everyone. Things are not quite so cut and dried from a retailers perspective, and not so easy.
For those saying buy books at pennies and sell for a dollar- Say I pay a dime a book, I have to pay someone to process all those books, pay for bags and boards, pay someone to bag and board those books, sort them, integrate them into stock etc. Let's look at it with some hypothetical numbers based on real costs.
I buy the books for dime to sell for a dollar. Wow going to make 90 cents on each book I sell great, right. Not. Add 20 cents for the cost of bag and board, so now I am only going to make 70 cents per book still good right. Well lets say you can process 30 books in an hour, that means, check them out make sure they are sellable (with no surprises inside (candid photos hidden in a book, dead bugs, pages missing, etc. etc. etc.-you won't believe what we've found hidden inside comics we bought in bulk), bag and board them, sort them for stock and put them out for sale in the store. Well let's see one hour of work is one hour of salary I have to pay. If it's minimum wage (lat's say $10 for average though the San Fran shops and others are looking at $15 an hour) So 30 books at cost is $3, 30 bags and board is another $6, and one hours of salary is $10 so now I have paid out $19 for those books I will sell for $30, so I make $11 dollars or a whopping 2.72 cents per book sold. Add in the rent, utilities, salary of the person ringing register, insurance, etc. and even paying pennies for those books makes them not very profitable, if not unprofitable. Unless you found a key or in demand book by speculators in the box that covers the cost of processing the rest of the box you are going to end up losing money even if you are paying pennies for the dollars on those.
Selling a overstock of books already paid for to liquidate them is one thing, but buying collections to do so is not a profitable venture because of other overhead.
The key to improving stores is customer service, but considering most are one person ventures or have small staff and there is more work to do than hours in a given day to run a shop, unless you have the cash flow to designate employees just to offer customer service it's tough.
-In a given week, you have to track adds and drops to pull to adjust FOC each week with Diamond and determine what you need to place as reorders for all comics and trades...
-check in Diamond order, deal with damages, cal in damages, sort out pulls, sotck the shelves with new books which if you have a new comic area requires you tear down that section each week to put out the new books and integrate all the old stock into the other areas of the store...
-keep abreast of new books announced, creative changes, cancelled books, movie announcements, etc. etc. so you can mee the standard everyone here wants of being well-informed and knowledgeable about the products, considering there are several thousand new issues each month and additional products in each Diamond catalog and the owner has to deal with the products coming in, the products he ordered for next month but has to constanty adjust as customers let him know wha tthey want and don't want, a second month's worth of unreleasaed product that he has to write an order for at the end of the month and the month after that's products that the publishers are already releasing solicits for online so he/she need to gauge interest in so can hype/promote/order appropriately
-track what's actually selling in the store so he can make informed decisions about future order and make necessary reorders. Even if you have software that does this, you have to run the reports, look them over, compare with order date, etc. to make the info useful.
-if you have products other than comics (anything form Heroclix to rpg, to sports cards, etc. you have to do all that you do for comics for those products too, deal with those distributors and catalogs, etc.
-If you have an online store, you need to list products, package up sales, update inventory, etc. etc.
-if you take time to sort all those back issues it means you are not doing any of these. If you have customers in the store you aren't doing any of that as you need to provide customer service, even if the customer is buying one $4 comic but wants you to talk for half an hour about how DC destroyed the Legion and Marvel is going to screw up the continuity with the next event, essentially the same conversation you had with him last week and with 20 other different customers but you want to make it a pleasant experience for them so they come back right....
There are ways to make a comic shop a better experience. Unfortunately they all require time, money or both time and money, and what most owners do not have a lot of extra of is time or liquid capital to reinvest in their business. Most are living on a razor thin margin and spend more hours at the shop than most of us would at 2 full time jobs just to get by.
At Diamond's discount schedule, you basically need an 80% sell through of every comic book you order (minus whatever extras you charge for variants if you play that game) to even turn the barest profit. Discounts on trades are even less (more like 35-40% off of msrp than the 50% of floppies) so you need en even higher sell through rate, though there is more dollars earned per sale. This really limits what kind of discounts or extras they can offer with books unless they have a large volume store (meaning they order and sell a good number of books even for the dog sellers rather than 2-3, but considering that the best selling books through Diamond sell a little over 100K unless they are a big event first issue with a gazillion variants, and there are only approximately 5000 Diamond retail accounts t provide those sales a best seller sells an average of 20 copies of the best sellers and a book selling 10 K (i.e. most of the indies) average 2 copies per account) most accounts aren't doing that kind of volume. So unless you have a crystal ball to tell you what will sell, you have to guess and do all your homework and hope all your pulls don't get pissed off and drop a book because hot writer A makes unpopular decision with fan fave character B and leave you with 20 unsold copies of the latest issue.
So now you have to choose what to stock for display and tie up your capital vs. what you know you will sell through pulls. Customer comes in looks at the stuff you have on display, flips through it then pulls out his smartphone looks it up on Amazon looks at your price and walks out ordering the book elsewhere. Or asks for book you chose not to carry, you offer to order it (it takes 4-6 weeks for Diamond to process backstock trade and get them to you on reorders and special orders mind you), will they wait the extra time when they can get it for less and sooner from Amazon?
So even if I do everything right-clean well lit, easily navigable store with a decent selection and polite and knowledgeable staff, kids section, events, gaming, etc. the system works against me being successful. I can offer to match prices but then I can't afford to keep as much selection or have as large a staff. I cut staff, then I have to have the staff I do have spend more time on logistical tasks keeping the store running and less time on customer service, or continue with customer service but offer fewer options of stock and events and no discounts/add-ons, etc.
You have to pick your poison. A lot of options become mutually exclusive because of the costs/overhead/discount structures/ volume/economic realities of it all. Growing your business is possible, but takes a lot of time and money, and the infrastructure of the comics business places all the risk and very little of the reward on the retailer. I greatly admire the retailers who do it, because I know how much effort it takes.
The best thing stores can do is to improve is to make the store welcoming and make customer service a priority, but even those two things have repercussions and hidden costs in time and money necessary to keep the stores logistics functioning.
-M
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 2:14:44 GMT -5
Just an reality check for everyone. Things are not quite so cut and dried from a retailers perspective, and not so easy. For those saying buy books at pennies and sell for a dollar- Say I pay a dime a book, I have to pay someone to process all those books, pay for bags and boards, pay someone to bag and board those books, sort them, integrate them into stock etc. Let's look at it with some hypothetical numbers based on real costs. You don't really have to. I've bought collections of several thousand issues of NM bagged and boarded comics. All alphabetized and ready to go. You'd just have to lay the longbox out when the one already on the table empties. Also, I'd pass on any collection that wasn't bagged and boarded unless it was SA or older. My LCS has two high school kids working a couple hours a week in exchange for store credit. They stock shelves and fill pull boxes on Wednesday. I have a feeling it's not uncommon. Besides that, someone has to be in the store from open to close. There has to be a time where there aren't any customers in the store. Those moments would be put to good use stocking the back issue bins. I didn't make up the "everything is a dollar" system either. Several shops already operate it. This eliminates the need to grade, price, inventory, and continually update prices of stock that's been sitting around for years, all of which cost more labor than placing a box on the shelf. I buy the books for dime to sell for a dollar. Wow going to make 90 cents on each book I sell great, right. Not. Add 20 cents for the cost of bag and board, so now I am only going to make 70 cents per book still good right. Well lets say you can process 30 books in an hour, that means, check them out make sure they are sellable (with no surprises inside (candid photos hidden in a book, dead bugs, pages missing, etc. etc. etc.-you won't believe what we've found hidden inside comics we bought in bulk), bag and board them, sort them for stock and put them out for sale in the store. Well let's see one hour of work is one hour of salary I have to pay. If it's minimum wage (lat's say $10 for average though the San Fran shops and others are looking at $15 an hour) So 30 books at cost is $3, 30 bags and board is another $6, and one hours of salary is $10 so now I have paid out $19 for those books I will sell for $30, so I make $11 dollars or a whopping 2.72 cents per book sold. Add in the rent, utilities, salary of the person ringing register, insurance, etc. and even paying pennies for those books makes them not very profitable, if not unprofitable. Unless you found a key or in demand book by speculators in the box that covers the cost of processing the rest of the box you are going to end up losing money even if you are paying pennies for the dollars on those. You're going to pay the salary regardless. Same as insurance, ect. You can pay them to sit on a stool reading comics, or you can pay them to work. Like I said, don't buy collections with unbagged comics. There is no reason to check anything. Just put the box out there as is. A smart business would be able to operate without back issue sales at all, and rely solely on weekly floppies and other popular non comic merchandise. The TPB's, HC's, and back issues should all be bonus revenue. If your business relies mostly on back issue sales, I'd say don't even bother with low value comics at all. Sell strictly high grade Silver Age slabs. I may not run a comic shop, but I am self employed and have started several businesses. I've never had to explain to anyone why my prices weren't competitive.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 2:43:42 GMT -5
We've had comics that have come in collections, some bagged some not that have had everything from nude photos to condoms to wrapping papers, to dead insects inside them between pages. High school age kids will hide things anywhere and then forget they are there when they go to sell off their kid stuff as adults. One of those things winds up in a customers hands, especially a kid, and you have a law suit waiting to happen. If you don't check the books, it's negligence on your part and you become fully liable for it. In the three years that I helped at the shop, we had hundreds of collections brought in by people looking to sell, I can count on one hand the number that were bagged and boarded, and only about half of those were in any kind of order. Maybe things are different in your shop, but that's not common around here. Most of the stuff that comes into shops were stuff found by relatives of more casual collectors who kept things in cardboard boxes or plastic storage totes with nary a bag or board around.
I'm not denying stores that do it, we have one shop here that carries over 40K dollar books in a separate storefront. He only buys collections with key sought after books not bulk, most of the stock for the dollar bins is from years (he's been operating since '74 I think) of overstock and shedding off non-key books from those collections with keys. He makes sure he can make his money and overhead from 1 book in the collection before he buys anything, everything else then is pure profit. Another store in the are buy bulk comics by weight (around 10 cents per pound of comics), but he sorts nothing, just makes sure everything is salable. He has yearly sidewalk and Black Friday sales where he pulls the stuff out and sells it at dirt cheap prices but he spends no time of his weekly time selling or dealing with these books, just special occasions. Both stores deal in a lot of high end stuff and the second is one of the biggest dealers of Magic and Hero Clix singles in the region, which is where he makes most of his money, not comics. There are ways to do it, but buying collections and hoping they are already ready for sale is not one of them.
-M
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 3:08:57 GMT -5
Things aren't different in my shop. He simply doesn't purchase collections. I've purchased several though and not had anything like that pop up. I've also sold plenty of books without inspecting them, and bought several more that I suspect haven't been inspected by the seller. I know of shops that appear to have been storage auction wins and operated by people who seem to know nothing about comics. Nothing in any sort of order, just stacks and stacks of comics. Of course this isn't the ideal way to run a shop, but I also don't expect to find a condom in any of those comics either. I wouldn't recommend acquiring so much stock you'd need to pay for storage. But if I were to open a comic shop I'd want to have at least 20 longboxes of back issues, and depending on the size of the store 40 longboxes would be better. I'd focus on utility of space and organization, but my bins would just be dollar bins. I'd want that product moving. And as collections came in I'd pick them up in the right condition and price and just fill my garage. Once the garage is full no more collections. And it wouldn't take long until you'd have enough back stock to get very selective with your bulk purchases. But also you may have to scour Craigslist, and take trips out of town to score some good ones. It's just the nature of the business. And where would Chuck be now if he had never left town to look at a collection? The tables would be restocked as they got low, it would only take a few minutes out of each day to consolidate the comics into smaller boxes. Realistically, a few minutes every couple weeks. And then grab a new box from the garage. Slow time would be spent going through the boxes looking for keys, removing junk, ect. And any junk found would go right back into blind grab bags of fifty comics for ten bucks or whatever. But yeah, I agree that a priority for a shop owner right now would be popular non comic merchandise like Heroclix, and staying up to date on what IS popular would be key to success. I wouldn't count on the dollar bins to pay the bills. I DO think they'd be profitable though, and easily add an extra couple hundred a week in revenue, and also draw in collectors through word of mouth, and possibly even non collectors. I was not a collector when my mom brought me to my first quarter bin as a kid. You can build valuable customers with something like that spreading through word of mouth online, on the playground, on Yelp, ect. I just think when someone's advice for running a comic shop is "don't sell comics" is self defeating. There are ways to sell comics, remain competitive, and turn a profit. Is it the best use of investment capital? Probably not. But opening up a brick and mortar anything selling print anything isn't. If you really want to sell comics and you know what you're doing and play your cards right, you can do it. It requires leg work though. My impression that collections are easy to come by stem from two experiences. One is the ease with which I've been able to buy collections and store merchandise in bulk when I was looking, and with the number of times I saw my LCS turn down collections without looking, considering the place has never exactly been my hang out and I'm in and out of there pretty quick.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 21, 2015 8:41:45 GMT -5
I don't think that it's improving comic book shops, as much as them having a different place in the industry. I've been to one comic shop I can think of in 20 years that was the stereotype comic book shop back when I lived in St Louis. If bottom dollar is the issue than they will never compete. When I took my son to FCBD, I saw him looking at Walking Dead figures and my immediate reaction in my head was, having to tell him we'll check Walmart, since I'm not paying $19.99 for a figure when I don't have to. And that's the thing for me. If I don't have to, why should I? I don't grocery shop at Target (for those not familiar it's basically an upper middle class version of Walmart) I go to Crest (discount grocery store, even better on prices than Walmart a lot of times) cause I have three mouths to feed besides my own on one income. I had the inclination to get the next volume of Cerebus when I was there on FCBD until I realized that the cover price is $30, and the volumes I got before on amazon were $20 or less, new. I can't afford, literally, the luxury of atmosphere and convenience. And if a lot of Americans are in this boat, then I am sure it's not just comic book shops but a lot of specialty shops that are suffering due to people being able to stretch what little disposable income they have by buying on the internet.
Now the local (in the midwest) store Vintage Stock (where I've been getting my $1 comics I've been posting) that stocks comics, games, movies, CDs, vinyl, game consoles, toys and cards/card games, usually always has good prices outside of toys. About 3-4 years ago I scored the first three Starman Omnibus for $13 something(normally $50 I think), used, but in perfect condition. I don't know what they do different in how they acquire what they do, but of games and game accessories that I have bought there, I have never see ridiculous pricing compared to other outlets like Walmart. I still maintain it's a specialty shop, but with 6-7 different "specialties" maybe it maintains overall competitive pricing and movement of stock because it's not relying on one specialty. That's just a speculation, but my personal explanation as to why improving comic book shops isn't an issue, if they cannot compete in pricing.
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Post by Randle-El on May 21, 2015 9:44:11 GMT -5
I sympathize with store owners who are running the business by themselves, or with very little help, and are struggling to make ends meet. But the reality of the business is that if you own a store, you have to give the customer a reason to come in and buy product from you rather than Amazon or Midtown or some other online retailer. We've established that retailers can't compete on price for new product. OK, fine most brick-and-mortar stores can't. If you can't offer appealing prices or selection on back issues (or any back issues at all), don't have time or staff to offer anything but bare minimum customer service, don't have the ability to offer sales, signings special events, or ancillary merchandise, then tell me -- as a customer, why should I bother coming to your store? At the end of the day, comic shops are a business, not a charity, and their business has to be earned by offering something that online retailers can't. At some point, plying customers with vague notions of supporting the LCS without offering them reason to do so is just taking advantage of their sentimentality.
While the current landscape of comic retailing has definitely made it harder for retailers to compete, I don't think that's an entirely bad thing. I think it has placed pressure on a lot of shops that are poorly run to either step up or go out of business. Those hole-in-the-wall, nerd caves staffed by obnoxious man-children? They're a blight on the industry and I'm not sad to see those go away. Of those shops that are doing well, it may be that the market has dictated that only certain types of shops will be able to thrive on the Internet era. I've noticed that a lot of stores doing well tend to be the "comics and gaming megastore" variety -- an independently owned store that is big, has a large staff, offers gaming (or some other related merchandise to supplement sales) and has trappings of a more professionally-run business: social media presence, computerized POS, etc. Does this mean smaller operations can't exist in the current environment? I think they can, but they can't expect customers to pay retail pricing for product and not get anything for it. There's too much competition now to take customers for granted in that way.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958
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Post by Crimebuster on May 21, 2015 9:54:54 GMT -5
My LCS is one of the biggest and most successful in New England. Every time I go in, it's packed with people, children, women, the whole shebang. One of the big things they have done over the years is diversify. They have tons and tons of comics, both new and old, but they also carry everything else geeky under the sun - toys, action figures, board games, video games, Magic cards, baseball cards, all of it. And probably most importantly these days, superhero merchandise. It's just like going to a convention now, where half the dealers don't have comics at all, but t-shirts, mugs and posters featuring comic book characters. It pains me a little to say it, but I think stores need to have the same mindset as the big companies that are publishing the comics - view the comics themselves as probably unprofitable advertisements for the merchandise. Superheroes are more popular than ever in pop culture, even if comics aren't. Lean into it.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 10:14:46 GMT -5
I find that people tend to spend more money on things when they're having fun. A ten dollar beer at a carnival or sporting event. A five dollar hot dog at the beach. Put in a Neo Geo machine, the kind that holds 6 or more games in it. Put up a big screen and play superhero movies. Or even Youtube vlogs about comics. Have contests for pull list subscribers. Make people think of the LCS as their Cheers. I think many regulars wouldn't even consider looking online at that point, and the few that did would never admit it.
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