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Post by Spike-X on May 30, 2015 19:12:50 GMT -5
I've never understood the big deal. Virtually no other type of periodical numbers the issues in the way that comics do. I definitely understand for some people it's a thing...but I just don't care at all. I'm with Slam. It's just a number. They do take the piss occasionally, like when they re-started Mark Waid's Hulk run at a new #1 half way through the story, only to have him leave three issues later. But on the whole it's not a big deal.
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 31, 2015 0:06:14 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't care so much about the numbering itself--at this point, with online databases, it's a breeze to keep track of what came first and in what order. What's irritating and annoying is that Marvel does stuff like the above Hulk example and it, more or less, works. Ultimately it's a sign of failure since it's obvious that they have trouble maintaining reader interest over the long-term nowadays, thus the #1 stunts.
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Post by fanboystranger on May 31, 2015 0:17:40 GMT -5
It used to annoy me when they'd relaunch with new #1s all the time, but these days, I don't really care what the number is. I think it's because most books I enjoy rarely make it past two years anyway. You get used to low numbers.
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Post by fanboystranger on May 31, 2015 0:22:54 GMT -5
All I can say is that I miss when comic series had issue numbers in the triple digits. It made me oddly happy that the longest unbroken numbering for an ongoing DC was Hellblazer for a short period. It gave the illusion that quality actually mattered for longevity, and because it was such a provactive book at times, it was like a big middle finger directed at more straight books-- the young punk overtaking the old icons.
Sadly, it didn't last long.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 0:56:35 GMT -5
Most periodicals are "numbered" by month and year, not numbered one through whatever. if there is a renumbering, it's every year after 12 issues, or 6, 4, 3 issues, depending on the frequency it's published. Also, most periodicals are not serialized stories. In every serialized story, movie, tv, ect, it's pretty clear which order they go in because they don't get goofy with the numbers. It's only just a number if you never look back. If you've never missed an issue, never plan on tracking down old issues, and never want to revisit what you've read without looking it up on Wikipedia to find out which order it came out in. If Fast And Furious movies weren't numbered 1-7 and instead were numbered 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 7, people would take note of it.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 1:05:08 GMT -5
Most periodicals are "numbered" by month and year, not numbered one through whatever. if there is a renumbering, it's every year after 12 issues, or 6, 4, 3 issues, depending on the frequency it's published. Also, most periodicals are not serialized stories. In every serialized story, movie, tv, ect, it's pretty clear which order they go in because they don't get goofy with the numbers. It's only just a number if you never look back. If you've never missed an issue, never plan on tracking down old issues, and never want to revisit what you've read without looking it up on Wikipedia to find out which order it came out in. If Fast And Furious movies weren't numbered 1-7 and instead were numbered 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 7, people would take note of it. Comic mags like Heavy Metal and Epic Illustrated do not have numbers on the cover, just month and date. Most contain serialized stories within. Inside they are numbered but that doesn't help when looking for back issues when they are bagged and/or boarded and you cannot open them up to check issue numbers. If you are looking for a specific issue, you just note the month and date-I am looking for the December 1978 issue of Heavy Metal or the February 1985 issue of Epic Illustrated. It's not hard, you just adapt to what is needed for the situation. It's no harder or easier than thinking I need issue 10 of Heavy Metal (Jan '78 was the tenth issue but you can't tell that by looking at the cover) or issue 28 of Epic Illustrated (i..e the Feb '85 issue, also no indication on the cover), it's just different. If there is no issue number visible, you adapt to what is. If you can't adapt to that, well.... -M
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 1:07:22 GMT -5
But there's no reason for a non anthology comic to be as difficult.
Pretty easy to tell where you are in Walking Dead. And for three or four decades it was just as easy to tell where you were in Detective comics too.
You're right though. If you can't adapt to unnecessary things that annoy you, stop buying it. I think that's what a lot of people continue to do year after year. Not so great for Marvel and DC.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 1:27:26 GMT -5
But there's no reason for a non anthology comic to be as difficult. Pretty easy to tell where you are in Walking Dead. And for three or four decades it was just as easy to tell where you were in Detective comics too. You're right though. If you can't adapt to unnecessary things that annoy you, stop buying it. I think that's what a lot of people continue to do year after year. Not so great for Marvel and DC. There's no reason for Marvel or DC or Image or anyone to care how easy it is for you to find back issues or organize your collection. That's not their business and they make no revenue from it. Once they are on to the next issue, what you do or how you seek out and buy the old stuff is not their concern unless you are buying a trade collection of it that they make money on. There sole concern should be on producing the best story and art each issue, or at minimum making the most money form each issue they can. Numbering gives them excuses to make mor emoney-ofh the 150th issue of Dending League of Champions is coming up, let's add 4 pages of story and 3 pinups, throw in a cheap rerint of a story we did 15 years ago and double the price. Of course those 4 extra pages will screw up the deadlines on the next 3 issues, so let's use an inventory issue in 151 by 2 different creators, a partial reprint in 152 and we will increase revenue on those 2 books because costs will be less, and then in 153 we can market the triumphant return of the creators and get a sales boost....that's what numbering does for ongoing comics, nothing more, nothing less in terms of the actual business of making and selling the comics. Secondary market issues are secondary issues or non-issues to publishers. A new #1 is no more or less a marketing ploy than playing up a 50th, 100th or what have you issue. It just actually sells better so they do it more. -M
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 31, 2015 1:38:44 GMT -5
Poor organization of story-lines and series CAN become a sales detriment if it causes a new reader to throw up his/her hands and give up. It's a similar problem that you have with certain websites where a poor design can lead to loss revenue. The problem is that Marvel and DC are cynically resigned to the fact that they don't actually have many new readers to cater to anymore and realize that the hardcore fans will do the work to put everything in order.
Magazines and comics, while sharing many similarities, are different beasts. For good or ill, comics maintained an unbroken system of sequential numbering for some 70+ years and for this to devolve into the chaos we have now, over a very short period of time, speaks of how poorly organized Marvel and DC are in terms of clearly presenting their products. Comics aren't TV series or games. You're dealing with many more individual units spread out over an enormous line of comics. If any product screamed for attention to organization and clear presentation, it's comics.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 1:44:19 GMT -5
Poor organization of story-lines and series CAN become a sales detriment if it causes a new reader to throw up his/her hands and give up. It's a similar problem that you have with certain websites where a poor design can lead to loss revenue. The problem is that Marvel and DC are cynically resigned to the fact that they don't actually have many new readers to cater to anymore and realize that the hardcore fans will do the work to put everything in order. Magazines and comics, while sharing many similarities, are different beasts. For good or ill, comics maintained an unbroken system of sequential numbering for some 70+ years and for this to devolve into the chaos we have now, over a very short period of time, speaks of how poorly organized Marvel and DC are in terms of clearly presenting their products. Comics aren't TV series or games. You're dealing with many more individual units spread out over an enormous line of comics. If any product screamed for attention to organization and clear presentation, it's comics. Except the system was developed for newsstand distribution and in a world where trade collections didn't exist. Where postal regulations for types of postage had to be met which affected numbering decisions and a thousand other behind the scenes details people don't consider when discussing numbering. If Marvel or DC didn't have to worry about postal regs or statements of ownership in the 70s and relaunching #1 added to their revenue then, you think they wouldn't have been all over that and done it then? The rules changed. The market changed. The distribution model changed. The way they number books changed. It's not a grand plan or lack of one. It's reacting to the needs of the market. -M
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 3:16:19 GMT -5
There's no reason for Marvel or DC or Image or anyone to care how easy it is for you to find back issues or organize your collection. That's not their business and they make no revenue from it. Once they are on to the next issue, what you do or how you seek out and buy the old stuff is not their concern unless you are buying a trade collection of it that they make money on. But it IS in their best interest to attract new customers, and keep the ones they already have. Their numbering eccentricities aren't the only think working against those two goals, but they aren't helping either. You're right. Marvel and DC don't have to do a damn things comic fans like. What they get from not doing that is a continued loss of marketshare and stagnant sales during steady growth in the industry. Bad things. There sole concern should be on producing the best story and art each issue I agree to that, but I know for a fact that's never been their sole concern, and I doubt it's even been their primary concern for most of either companies history.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 3:19:12 GMT -5
Poor organization of story-lines and series CAN become a sales detriment if it causes a new reader to throw up his/her hands and give up. It's a similar problem that you have with certain websites where a poor design can lead to loss revenue. The problem is that Marvel and DC are cynically resigned to the fact that they don't actually have many new readers to cater to anymore and realize that the hardcore fans will do the work to put everything in order. Magazines and comics, while sharing many similarities, are different beasts. For good or ill, comics maintained an unbroken system of sequential numbering for some 70+ years and for this to devolve into the chaos we have now, over a very short period of time, speaks of how poorly organized Marvel and DC are in terms of clearly presenting their products. Comics aren't TV series or games. You're dealing with many more individual units spread out over an enormous line of comics. If any product screamed for attention to organization and clear presentation, it's comics. Except the system was developed for newsstand distribution and in a world where trade collections didn't exist. Where postal regulations for types of postage had to be met which affected numbering decisions and a thousand other behind the scenes details people don't consider when discussing numbering. If Marvel or DC didn't have to worry about postal regs or statements of ownership in the 70s and relaunching #1 added to their revenue then, you think they wouldn't have been all over that and done it then? The rules changed. The market changed. The distribution model changed. The way they number books changed. It's not a grand plan or lack of one. It's reacting to the needs of the market. -M I don't think 1970's Marvel and DC would be happy with today's sales figures.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 3:33:53 GMT -5
Except the system was developed for newsstand distribution and in a world where trade collections didn't exist. Where postal regulations for types of postage had to be met which affected numbering decisions and a thousand other behind the scenes details people don't consider when discussing numbering. If Marvel or DC didn't have to worry about postal regs or statements of ownership in the 70s and relaunching #1 added to their revenue then, you think they wouldn't have been all over that and done it then? The rules changed. The market changed. The distribution model changed. The way they number books changed. It's not a grand plan or lack of one. It's reacting to the needs of the market. -M I don't think 1970's Marvel and DC would be happy with today's sales figures. That's because the bulk of readers in the 70s weren't collectors, but readers who never set foot in a comic shop or cared about numbering continuity, or what not, today's sales figures are mostly to "collectors" for whom things like legacy numbering matter. The readers weren't chased away (or kept away) by numbering issues, they were chased away by loss of access outside of comic shops, marketing gimmicks replacing quality storytelling in the 90s, books becoming more self-referential and mired in their own morass of continuity rather than entertaining storytelling, increasing prices that rose at a faster rate than other goods on the market, and the rise of other entertainment options that offered more bang for the buck. But that's part of what is included when I said the market and distribution models have changed. Creating comics may be an artform, but comics publishing is a business pure and simple, and they will make whatever decisons they need to to sell as much as they can in the current market. The current market is not the 70s so you cannot sell comics the same way you did then. It's also not the 20 otts either, so tactics from even then have had to evolve to meet the needs of the changing marketplace and changing preferences of the current customer base ad potential customer base. The biggest bar to new readers is not numbering issues, or continuity, it is access and price point via-vis value for your dollar. Until those obstacles are overcome, there will not be significant growth in the market. Until then they will just be reslicing the same pie different ways as they sell to the same ole same ole and a smattering of new folks much smaller than it could be. If you ask people who are prime candidates to become new readers why they don't the most common answers are not I don't know where to start or what order to read them in, or there's too much backstory, it's I am not sure where to find them to buy and when I do find them, boy are they expensive compared to what I get and in relation to what I can get in other forms of entertainment for the same buy in cost. One intro volume of an Image trade that sells for $9.99 (which is about the best value you can get in comics) is still as much as an entire month of Netflix, or I can buy 2 maybe 3 floppies for that price, if I know where to go to get them that is. That is the bar to growth, not confusion over numbering, sales gimmicks, or what have you. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 31, 2015 7:35:23 GMT -5
Just a couple comments:
Anthologies titles ARE more difficult to sort out for back issues... I've got some 2000 AD back issues, and one never really knows what you're getting... some stories are mid-stream, some just ending, which, of course is on purpose.
That's totally different that a comic, where part of what they are selling you is the history of the character.
Perhaps that's the difference... back in the day they were selling you the history of the character.. now they're selling particular storylines, or, more often, creators.
Frankly, it's a short-sighted strategy... making a fan of a character makes a long term, perhaps lifetime fan... that's the whole reason they have 'Marvel Time', after all. By making fans of Jonathan Hickman or Rick Remender, you're subject to their whims, and can lose those fans if they leave. That CAN work (it works for Manga), but then they don't have long term characters... they instead go from one character to another.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 31, 2015 11:31:41 GMT -5
There's no reason for Marvel or DC or Image or anyone to care how easy it is for you to find back issues or organize your collection. That's not their business and they make no revenue from it. Once they are on to the next issue, what you do or how you seek out and buy the old stuff is not their concern unless you are buying a trade collection of it that they make money on. But it IS in their best interest to attract new customers, and keep the ones they already have. Their numbering eccentricities aren't the only think working against those two goals, but they aren't helping either. You're right. Marvel and DC don't have to do a damn things comic fans like. What they get from not doing that is a continued loss of marketshare and stagnant sales during steady growth in the industry. Bad things. Retaining new customers and keeping old ones don't necessarily correspond vis-a-vis the numbering issue, however. In my experience, and this is purely anecdotal, old customers are concerned about the "legacy" and want those high numbers. New consumers want to get in on the ground floor...or the perceived ground floor. This really corresponds to the rise to the series novel. Most people don't start Harry Potter with volume 4. You read the first one and move on. Ultimately where this makes a difference is with trade collections. If you have a single continuous story-line, like say, Walking Dead, it's easy to number those volumes sequentially and easy for the consumer to pick up the single story in order. However, if you have 50, 60, 70+ years of a character, over dozens of titles who has gone through hundreds of creators and a dozen fairly distinct incarnations...not so much.
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