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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 9, 2015 18:25:13 GMT -5
As much as I LOVE Stan's writing on Spider-Man, FF and Thor, I'm in the camp that feels his Avengers and X-Men were mediocre in comparison. It's no accident that those are the two iconic Silver Age franchises where the Lee/Kirby team aren't considered to be the gold-standard in quality. For me, the Thomas/Buscema team are the best creators to ever work on Avengers in the context of that book, with Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne being the same for the X-Men.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Jun 9, 2015 19:38:39 GMT -5
I'm going to be solidly in the "YES" camp. Virtually everything we all love about Spider-Man as a character, as an iconoclast, as a role model, as us was established under Stan. It's his "Smoke on the Water" (for literal lack of any better metaphor on a Tuesday), endlessly riffed on and taken into very interesting quadrants, but eventually you always come back around to the original
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Post by Farrar on Jun 9, 2015 20:08:31 GMT -5
Your scenario assumes that Ditko was always the plotter, and there's not enough evidence for that. The only evidence we have is that at some point Ditko wanted to be credited as the plotter, and Lee gave him that credit in the later issues of Spidey to placate him, Untrue. "I don't plot SPIDER-MAN anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I'll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he's the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. [...] He just drops off the finished pages with notes in the margins, and I fill in the dialogue." Stan Lee From the Comics Journal 181, quoting an article from New York Magazine circa 1966. Here's the article, from the New York Herald-Tribune Sunday edition, published Jan. 9 1966. www.dialbforblog.com/archives/695/ny-herald-tribune-sunday-mag-jan9-1966big.jpgThe scan of the article is from this blog (which was generally excellent IMO but is no longer updated). There's more on Ditko, Stan and Spidey here www.dialbforblog.com/archives/695/ditko6.html
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Post by gothos on Jun 10, 2015 13:04:19 GMT -5
Your scenario assumes that Ditko was always the plotter, and there's not enough evidence for that. The only evidence we have is that at some point Ditko wanted to be credited as the plotter, and Lee gave him that credit in the later issues of Spidey to placate him, Untrue. "I don't plot SPIDER-MAN anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I'll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he's the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. [...] He just drops off the finished pages with notes in the margins, and I fill in the dialogue." Stan Lee From the Comics Journal 181, quoting an article from New York Magazine circa 1966. That doesn't mean that Ditko plotted the WHOLE run, but at some point (I believe it was around issue # 20, but I'm not sure so don't quote me) Ditko took over as sole plotter and basically refused to talk to Stan. I generally agree that it's impossible to sort out a "Stan" idea from his co-creators, though, except during the latter Ditko period. I'd also note that the Ditko-solo-plotted issues contain both the worst and the best plotted issues of the run. IMO, I guess, but I can't imagine anyone's gonna argue with me. I didn't mean that there was absolutely no evidence aside from the credit-boxes, though I can see why you might have thought that. I'm not sure I remembered this particular Stan-quote, though I was certainly reading the JOURNAL during this period, but obviously Ditko has been fairly vocal on the subject as well. Stan's quote is interesting because it does indicate that at some point he was, or believed that he was, pitching plot-ideas alongside Ditko in what seems more like a true partnership.
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Post by kongat44 on Jun 11, 2015 21:32:20 GMT -5
Well it is an unfair poll, since Ditko is left off the ballot, as was Romita. I believe that both Kirby and Ditko did write dialog to follow along with the story, Kirby in the comic art boarders, and Ditko on a separate piece of paper, which then Stan punched up and gave it his style. The main problem I have with the series as a whole, is that when the guy who wrote single handedly the first 24 issues, takes over again starting on issue 39, it doesn't seem like the same writer, it seems like two new guys have taken over the book. When Ditko took over the plotting, the book remained just as consistent as it had been for ages, which leads me to believe that he had been plotting it much longer, and maybe co plotting it from an early age, like maybe issue 7.
So I would vote Stan, but only of it was Stan and Steve. And someone said lets stick to the credits, well then from issue 25 till 38 it would be Stan and Steve.
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Post by MDG on Jun 12, 2015 5:56:15 GMT -5
I'm recusing myself, since if I've read a half- dozen issues of Spider-Man written by someone besides Stan, it's a lot (let alone remembered who wrote them). But, like many here, I'd go with Stan on the strength of the early issues.
The not exactly valid comparison of Spidey before and after Ditko that came to me is the Marx Brothers at Paramount compared to the Marx Brothers at MGM. The earlier stuff had a unique energy, even if it could be a little crude or undeveloped at times. The later stuff was slicker, but just tried to reproduce what had gone before. Some good stuff, but more conventional.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 14, 2015 13:13:04 GMT -5
Well it is an unfair poll, since Ditko is left off the ballot, as was Romita. I believe that both Kirby and Ditko did write dialog to follow along with the story, Kirby in the comic art boarders, and Ditko on a separate piece of paper, which then Stan punched up and gave it his style. The main problem I have with the series as a whole, is that when the guy who wrote single handedly the first 24 issues, takes over again starting on issue 39, it doesn't seem like the same writer, it seems like two new guys have taken over the book. When Ditko took over the plotting, the book remained just as consistent as it had been for ages, which leads me to believe that he had been plotting it much longer, and maybe co plotting it from an early age, like maybe issue 7. So I would vote Stan, but only of it was Stan and Steve. And someone said lets stick to the credits, well then from issue 25 till 38 it would be Stan and Steve. I wonder what the dialogue would have been like if Ditko wrote it completely. Also, Welcome to the forum, kongat44!
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 14, 2015 15:15:55 GMT -5
Untrue. "I don't plot SPIDER-MAN anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I'll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he's the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. [...] He just drops off the finished pages with notes in the margins, and I fill in the dialogue." Stan Lee From the Comics Journal 181, quoting an article from New York Magazine circa 1966. Here's the article, from the New York Herald-Tribune Sunday edition, published Jan. 9 1966. www.dialbforblog.com/archives/695/ny-herald-tribune-sunday-mag-jan9-1966big.jpgThe scan of the article is from this blog (which was generally excellent IMO but is no longer updated). There's more on Ditko, Stan and Spidey here www.dialbforblog.com/archives/695/ditko6.htmlOh, cool. Thank you! I knew that was online somewhere, but I sureshell couldn't find it. (I totally got the name of the quoted publication wrong, too.)
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Post by gothos on Jun 14, 2015 15:43:32 GMT -5
Well it is an unfair poll, since Ditko is left off the ballot, as was Romita. I believe that both Kirby and Ditko did write dialog to follow along with the story, Kirby in the comic art boarders, and Ditko on a separate piece of paper, which then Stan punched up and gave it his style. The main problem I have with the series as a whole, is that when the guy who wrote single handedly the first 24 issues, takes over again starting on issue 39, it doesn't seem like the same writer, it seems like two new guys have taken over the book. When Ditko took over the plotting, the book remained just as consistent as it had been for ages, which leads me to believe that he had been plotting it much longer, and maybe co plotting it from an early age, like maybe issue 7. So I would vote Stan, but only of it was Stan and Steve. And someone said lets stick to the credits, well then from issue 25 till 38 it would be Stan and Steve. I wonder what the dialogue would have been like if Ditko wrote it completely. Also, Welcome to the forum, kongat44!I have a terrible feeling we might have seen a Spidey who said things like, "I see no distinction between 'is' and 'ought'" (more or less a quote from STATIC)
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Post by kongat44 on Jun 14, 2015 22:23:43 GMT -5
I wonder what the dialogue would have been like if Ditko wrote it completely. Also, Welcome to the forum, kongat44!well, it might have been a little to the point if Ditko was unedited, and they were paying Stan for something. Stan did write better dialog than Kirby or Ditko, but still those guys plotted and made up dialog, it was up to Stan to edit, and polish, and basically make as good as possible, a task he was very good at. (s well as taking complete credit) Thanks for the welcome, this is an awesome site.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 23:16:23 GMT -5
-JACK KIRBY in The Comics Journal #134, Feb. 1990 [online at Tcj.com]
Granted this was at the height of the Kirby/Marvel dispute, but Jack didn't seem to have much positive to say about Stan's contributions. Ditko never was one to give interviews, so we are not sure exactly how he felt about it.
As for how Kirby felt about who was writing the books he worked on...
Jack Kirby cited by Neil Cohn, in Linguistics and the Study of Comics (Palgrave Macmillan, 2012)
-M
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Post by berkley on Jun 15, 2015 0:34:33 GMT -5
-JACK KIRBY in The Comics Journal #134, Feb. 1990 [online at Tcj.com] Granted this was at the height of the Kirby/Marvel dispute, but Jack didn't seem to have much positive to say about Stan's contributions. Ditko never was one to give interviews, so we are not sure exactly how he felt about it. As for how Kirby felt about who was writing the books he worked on... Jack Kirby cited by Neil Cohn, in Linguistics and the Study of Comics (Palgrave Macmillan, 2012) -M Much of the time he improved it, or at least made it snappier and more entertaining, but sometimes he messed with it to the point of changing the story and characters from Kirby's intentions, which is why Kirby eventually stopped putting forth his best ideas, and finally departed for DC. Unlike a lot of readers, I would NOT have wanted Stan to rewrite Kirby's dialogue for the New Gods or the Eternals: he wouldn't have understood what Kirby was trying to do in those stories and we would have lost more than we'd have gained with Stan - or rather with some other, younger writer, since Stan had largely stopped writing by the time of Kirby's solo series in the 70s.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 15, 2015 0:45:57 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say that at least with Kirby and Ditko, Stan was really an editor/dialog specialist as opposed to a pure writer/collaborator as we seen in later writer/artist teams. Stan himself has long admitted that Ditko and Kirby eventually did all the work themselves, and they seem to contend that they always did the plotting and came up with the bulk of the ideas. Then again, it seems that Stan had a different relationship with John Romita Sr. and John Buscema, both of whom seemed to get along very well with Lee, and to my knowledge, never disputed the nature of the relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 2:43:47 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say that at least with Kirby and Ditko, Stan was really an editor/dialog specialist as opposed to a pure writer/collaborator as we seen in later writer/artist teams. Stan himself has long admitted that Ditko and Kirby eventually did all the work themselves, and they seem to contend that they always did the plotting and came up with the bulk of the ideas. Then again, it seems that Stan had a different relationship with John Romita Sr. and John Buscema, both of whom seemed to get along very well with Lee, and to my knowledge, never disputed the nature of the relationship. I think part of it, and this is just supposition from things I have read, is that both John B and John R spent considerable time in the advertising and commercial art fields outside of comics before coming to work at Marvel and were much more accustomed to being company men and commercial artists who drew what they were paid to draw. Kirby came out of the studio system, and had pretty much always worked in comics, specifically with Joe Simon where the studio (and Kirby himself) were largely responsible for creating the content wholecloth and Kirby was used to being the driving force in the creation of the content; as long as they were producing material that sold he was left to his own devices. I am not sure what Ditko's background was prior to working in comics, but I think they key difference of autonomy vs. company man in the backgrounds of some of these artists went a long way towards defining their relationship with Stan; Ditko and Kirby both worked with him but chafed under lack of complete autonomy, which eventually eroded the working relationship until it ended, Ditko sooner that Kirby. Buscema and Romita were used to demands of the commercial art field so were more willing to toe the line so to speak and do what was needed to get the job done whatever way it needed to be done. They were all creative powerhouses and extremely talented, but Romita and Buscema had a different approach and mindset to the job than it seems Kirby and Ditko did. -M
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Post by MDG on Jun 15, 2015 8:54:39 GMT -5
I wonder what the dialogue would have been like if Ditko wrote it completely. Also, Welcome to the forum, kongat44!well, it might have been a little to the point if Ditko was unedited, and they were paying Stan for something. Stan did write better dialog than Kirby or Ditko, but still those guys plotted and made up dialog, it was up to Stan to edit, and polish, and basically make as good as possible, a task he was very good at. (s well as taking complete credit) Thanks for the welcome, this is an awesome site. IIRC, Ditko always had a writer or dialogger on all of his work for DC, from Creeper, to Hawk and Dove, to Shade. Anyone know if this was DC's choice or if Ditko didn't want to have to do the words after working everything out in pictures? Also, not to beat up on Stan, but he was writing/editing comics for close to 20 years before Spidey and FF, and none of it gets too much, if any, note from fans or historians, except in the most general terms as "spillover" from interest in the Marvel superheroes. I think Kirby and Ditko provided not just the creative spark but the actual creative work that finally gave him a "hook" to develop his own editorial personality. Which didn't evolve to much, up to the present day.
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