|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Sept 24, 2015 20:37:02 GMT -5
It's also a tribute/parody of Donald Trump's first book cover:  Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but John Byrne claims to have based his Luthor - at least to some extent - on Trump. I was reminded of that not by the cover of the two books, but by Shaxper working out Luthor's birth year as the same as Trump's.
Incidentally, the Superman titles will eventually start handing out Baldy awards for best letter printed in their columns some time around 1990/91. When this happens, the award will usually take the form of a card utilizing the artwork from the cover of The Unauthorized Biography.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Sept 24, 2015 20:41:10 GMT -5
It's also a tribute/parody of Donald Trump's first book cover: Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but John Byrne claims to have based his Luthor - at least to some extent - on Trump. I was reminded of that not by the cover of the two books, but by Shaxper working out Luthor's birth year as the same as Trump's. To reiterate though, the concept for the Post-Crisis Luthor came from Marv Wolfman. And Byrne had Luthor and Perry White Born in 1933 (World of Metropolis #1). Now Byrne may still have gone on to develop the character with Trump in mind, and that he may have suggested the revised birth year, but this is just circumspection. Did not know this! |
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Sept 24, 2015 21:43:30 GMT -5
Thus no mention of Lexcorp's technological achievements, including (if this remains in continuity) The Lex Wing aircraft design, which "founded" Luthor's financial empire (Superman #13).
You're right, by the way, about the fact that Corporate Luthor was Marv Wolfman's idea and not Byrne's, but what Byrne didn't take from Wolfman, he claims to have borrowed from Trump (not sure how true this is as you say, but it is what Byrne claims to be the truth). Anyhoo, I just find the idea amusing given Trump's public image today compared with how it was back in 1986.
Anyhow, there is something I've long wondered about the post-Crisis Luthor and that is this: Did any of his scientific acumen survive the Crisis? Clearly, he wasn't the Einstein of Evil that his original self was, but did his genius extend beyond the field of technology and business? I know he was stupid enough to wear a radioactive mineral on his finger all day, but I also vaguely recall him going after the Metal Men in a post-Crisis issue of Action Comics with some chemical invention of his own design. Could he, for instance, still whip up substance for robbing Superman of his powers or was this something he could only pay others to do?
Oh, and I know the LexWing will be mentioned again in flashbacks after this point so it isn't yet out of continuity (or if it is, it'll soon be reinstated since it's referenced in Action Comics 660 to name but one source).
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2015 7:09:10 GMT -5
Thus no mention of Lexcorp's technological achievements, including (if this remains in continuity) The Lex Wing aircraft design, which "founded" Luthor's financial empire (Superman #13).
You're right, by the way, about the fact that Corporate Luthor was Marv Wolfman's idea and not Byrne's, but what Byrne didn't take from Wolfman, he claims to have borrowed from Trump (not sure how true this is as you say, but it is what Byrne claims to be the truth). Anyhoo, I just find the idea amusing given Trump's public image today compared with how it was back in 1986.
Anyhow, there is something I've long wondered about the post-Crisis Luthor and that is this: Did any of his scientific acumen survive the Crisis? Clearly, he wasn't the Einstein of Evil that his original self was, but did his genius extend beyond the field of technology and business? I know he was stupid enough to wear a radioactive mineral on his finger all day, but I also vaguely recall him going after the Metal Men in a post-Crisis issue of Action Comics with some chemical invention of his own design. Could he, for instance, still whip up substance for robbing Superman of his powers or was this something he could only pay others to do?
Oh, and I know the LexWing will be mentioned again in flashbacks after this point so it isn't yet out of continuity (or if it is, it'll soon be reinstated since it's referenced in Action Comics 660 to name but one source).
I'm of two mindsets about the Post-Crisis Luthor being a scientific genius: 1. It could be (and I think I remember Wolfman saying this in the Amazing Heroes interview) that he felt someone truly brilliant living in the 1980s would realize it was more logical to put his mental energy towards business rather than science for science's sake. Instead of putting your genius to work in the lab, have five other geniuses do it for you and build an empire with your intellect instead. 2. I find it interesting that, while Lexcorp was in existence by the 1960s, the major scientific breakthroughs didn't occur until a decade later, pretty much right after he completed that two million dollar drug deal. Could be that the large influx of money allowed him to do new research and development, but it could also mean that he "acquired" those ideas from somewhere once he had underground connections. Just a thought. In fact, some of Lexcorp's technology seems downright alien in nature. I've read the Triangle Era stories as a kid, but I don't recall if this ever gets definitively addressed one way or the other. |
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Sept 25, 2015 17:24:02 GMT -5
It's also a tribute/parody of Donald Trump's first book cover: Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but John Byrne claims to have based his Luthor - at least to some extent - on Trump.
And now Trump brings everything full circle with his campaign. Life imitating art...     |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2015 20:45:08 GMT -5
Superman #33  "Mindfield!" writer: Roger Stern pencils: Kerry Gammill inks: Dennis Janke letters: John Costanza colors: Glenn Whitmore assoc. editor: Jon Peterson (another new assoc. editor? Already??) editor: Mike Carlin grade: C- By this point, it's safe to say that Exile might be the longest stalling tactic ever executed in the history of comicdom; certainly in the history of Superman. We've now spent eight months more or less on standby as Carlin has transitioned the reigns from Byrne (who left unexpectedly) to three new creative teams that, even at this point, are still in transition. Dan Jurgens is about to become a regular penciler (Carlin knows this), Roger Stern is about to leave (Carlin knows this and is planning to replace him with Jerry Ordway), and George Perez's much hyped addition to the Superman office will be surprisingly short-lived. Oh, and that vision of having one title focus on Superman, one on Clark and the Daily Planet, and one on Superman's Kryptonian heritage? I'm wondering if the concept is dead in the water before it's even been attempted. We'll see next month when the relaunch of the franchise titles is complete. But, whatever the case, Exile has been far more of a stall than a storyline. In eight months, all we've really accomplished is watching Superman torture himself over killing the rogue Kryptonians, resolve the inner conflict, and then bring it up again and again, learn stuff about his Kryptonian past that was largely a series of unnecessary additions to the backstory, fight Mongul, and get the Eradicator Device. That last detail is the only part that really seems to matter in the long run. There are definite plans in place, there. Beyond that, the last few months have been generally well executed, and the B plots have remained in motion, continuity being lovingly adhered to, but this has been really and truly boring stuff. I've had absolutely no desire to come back to these reviews, even after five months off, except for the promise that I'd finally get this storyline over with. I'm not sure there's much worth discussing in this issue beyond that. We spend far too much time exploring Superman and Cleric's memories for no particular reason beyond Clark working through guilt he'd already worked through several issues back (in regard to killing the rogue Kryptonians in Superman #22). Cleric dies (as we knew he would), Superman has the Eradicator Device (as we knew he would), and yet there are STILL plot points left hanging in regard to Warworld. Fortunately, we seem to be leaving those behind for now. Superman finally returns to Earth in two more issues. I sincerely hope it's worth the wait. But this issue, it just felt like a lot more unnecessary filler. Minor Details: - Superman can hold his breath for two to three hours in space. Originally, it was one hour (Action Comics #588), and then "for several hours" (Superman: The Earth Stealers). Of course, he was doing some pretty intense physical labor in Action #588 that may have explained the shortened time span. - Pa Kent's brother, Harry, was killed by a thresher machine prior to World War II. We already knew how he died, but now we know that it occurred sometime prior to Pa Kent going off to war. - Stern and Gammill are apparently sick of drawing Superman with tattered capes. Byrne intentionally worked out an explanation of Superman's aura of invulnerability that would allow the cape to get beaten up specifically because he liked drawing it that way, but Stern and Gammill undo all of that here:  plot synopsis in one sentence: Cleric bonds with Superman via the Eradicator Device for a second time so that they can unnecessarily explore their past memories and work through Superman's guilt (which appears to have returned just to allow this storyline to continue for another issue), Draaga feels the need to have a rematch with Superman to defend his honor, but the masters of Warworld order him to wait while they attend to reconsolidating their power, Pa Kent is on his way to Metropolis to check on Matrix, Lex Luthor is still trying to harness a drugged and unconscious Brainiac's knowledge before killing him, Cleric dies, and Superman is ready to end his exile, now possessing the Eradicator Device. |
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Nov 30, 2015 21:59:44 GMT -5
Is this the first time this is mentioned? I know it is mentioned somewhere else. I thought it was Man of Steel (but my memory is notoriously faulty), but I have a mental image of Pa talking to Clark about his powers and how he and Ma had gradually become aware of them. He describes a time when young Clark was trampled by a bull. Pa says he expected to a "Bloody mess, like when my brother Harry fell into the threshing machine" but Clark was unscathed.
Or was that this issue? (If it was I've somehow merged the two issues my head. Memory is a tricky a fallible thing.)
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2015 22:00:18 GMT -5
Adventures of Superman #456  "Redemption!" plot: Jerry Ordway script and pencils: Dan Jurgens inks: Art Thibert letters: Albert DeGuzman colors: Glenn Whitmore assoc. editor: Jonathan Peterson editor: Mike Carlin Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster grade: B A very uneven issue as Dan Jurgens tackles regular art chores and script writing for the first time. On the one hand, there is so much unnecessary exposition in this issue, as characters spend multiple panels rehashing events that have occurred over the past eight months so that readers can be caught up. On the other, there are moments where the writing really connects. I particularly enjoyed Jurgens' characterization of Matrix. Others have tried to turn her playful naivete into comedy, but it never really worked for me until now. For example, Matrix (as Clark) is sent out to get food for everyone at The Planet:  I also really enjoyed Matrix surviving an epic destruction and, upon being told Lois is in danger, decides the thing to do is get a fresh set of clothes. Jurgens is really writing her well. But then we also get this moment, which really irked me. We've been waiting and waiting to find out what kind of danger Cat Grant would be in, first in dating in Morgan Edge and later in being Clark's contact for the expose that's destroying his criminal empire. So we've waited and waited for the other foot to drop, but now it's done so carelessly and conveniently when Darkseid brings in an enormous robot to solve a problem that had been hidden in subtle shadows up until now.  So Cat just outs herself? And Darkseid just conveniently decides not to kill her in order to preserve his own pride? And she never ever gives a thought to the idea that Intergang now knows what she did and might want to go after her son as payback? It's just all so carelessly concluded. But then, most of that likely falls on Ordway, who plotted this story. In terms of Jurgens' artwork, the above images are both great examples of the unevenness of his work here. Clark looks downright weird in that first image, but the second one is very visually striking. Jurgens is often really really on (moreso than Byrne, Ordway, and Gammill put together), but there are a few visually awkward panels as well, and usually the awkwardness is in Clark's face for some reason. Anyway, it's a better issue. Things are moving forward finally, even with Superman not returning to Earth until next issue, and Jurgens is mostly doing an excellent job in both the scripting and penciling departments. Things ARE improving. Important Details: Gangbuster can now utilize his armor without having Lex Luthor control him remotely thanks to Prof. Hamilton Minor Details: With all the basic aspects of society that Matrix struggles to understand, how the hell did she figure out how to tie a tie or even properly wear a suit without any help? plot synopsis in one sentence: Superman leaves for Earth, utilizing the Eradicator Device to wish himself home (so then why does he not just magically reappear on Earth?), Morgan Edge is beginning to fall apart, Darkseid decides to bring in an enormous robot from Apokolips to solve the issue of Clark Kent (and now Lois Lane writing the exposes on Intergang as well), Pa Kent is apparently no longer heading to Metropolis to help Matrix (oops? Editorial oversight??), the robot attacks and completely crushes Gangbuster, as well as Maggie Sawyer and her team, all while Brainiac awakes to announce that Superman has returned. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2015 22:05:06 GMT -5
Is this the first time this is mentioned? I know it is mentioned somewhere else. I thought it was Man of Steel (but my memory is notoriously faulty), but I have a mental image of Pa talking to Clark about his powers and how he and Ma had gradually become aware of them. He describes a time when young Clark was trampled by a bull. Pa says he expected to a "Bloody mess, like when my brother Harry fell into the threshing machine" but Clark was unscathed. Or was that this issue? (If it was I've somehow merged the two issues my head. Memory is a tricky a fallible thing.) It's possible there was an earlier reference that I missed. Harry was vaguely alluded to in World of Smallville, but the thresher incident was not mentioned there. Furthermore, I don't think we've yet been told whether Harry was an older or younger sibling. Edit: You have an excellent memory. Here's the panel from Man of Steel #1:  AND it indicates that Harry was an older sibling. Score! Superman #33 still contributes by giving us some time reference -- this happened prior to World War II, but you are correct that the incident itself was mentioned far earlier on. |
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Nov 30, 2015 23:20:59 GMT -5
Always glad when I can contribute in some small way.  For some reason that reference about the threshing machine stayed with me (maybe because I grew up on a farm and have a horrible idea of what a thresher might do to someone). |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 1, 2015 14:20:31 GMT -5
Action Comics #643  "Superman on Earth" writer and breakdowns: George Perez finished art: Brett Breeding letters: Bill Oakley colors: Glenn Whitmore assoc. editor: Jonathan Peterson editor: Mike Carlin Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster grade: B A major transition issue. Action Comics returns to monthly publication, is once again approved by the Comics Code, and (of course) features a full length Superman story for the first time in 42 issues. But even more than that, there's a major transition for Superman himself in this issue, and that seems to correspond to the arrival of George Perez on the book. DC's initial approach to the Post-Crisis Superman was to take one super high profile artist/writer and give him nearly complete control over the franchise. I get the sense that they're trying that approach once again with Perez, and Perez has a very different vision for Superman than Byrne did. I believe someone shared an anecdote much earlier in this thread of Byrne and Perez not getting along just before Byrne's departure, and that would help to explain why Perez's approach seems to hold no respect for what Byrne had spent two years doing with the franchise. This Superman hasn't just had his hope in himself replenished -- he's an outright hokey good guy for the first time in the Post-Crisis. Perez exhumes the classic "Look! Up in the sky!" quote to initiate Superman's return, and then just portrays the guy as so joyful, optimistic, and out-and-out goody goody for the rest of the issue. He's far more the outright hero I've missed than the moody former farm boy Byrne had been developing.  In addition to that, the major Intergang/Morgan Edge/Darkseid/Cat Grant story arc gets essentially tossed out the window here, easily solved by Superman throwing down with a giant robot, after which Morgan Edge conveniently has a heart attack and may be dying, Cat Grant's problems get solved and her career takes off, and we find out it was never Darkseid backing Edge -- just DeSaad playing games. Kind of a major F--- You to all that had been in the pipes in regard to this storyline for so long now. But, I have to admit, that brawl between Superman and the robot was epic.  In fact, this massive throwdown, devastating the ground around them to a battered pulp while two giants essentially wrestle as a helicopter zooms overhead, desperately attempting to capture it all, feels a bit prototypical of the epic battle between Superman and Doomsday a few years from now, penciled by Dan Jurgens. heck, if I was a penciler working in the Superman office when Perez did this, I'd want to steal from it too. Essentially, though, this issue feels very much like a #1, almost as if Perez is saying "Hey, if you never read Superman prior to this moment, that's okay. You're on the ground floor of what's to come, and what was before is ancient history." Heck, the cover paying homage to the original Superman #1 seems to confirm the idea. Of course, Matrix and Brainiac will require some explaining, but perhaps Perez is content to let someone else do that explaining in one of the other books. Minor Details: - "Eldon" is the best helicopter pilot employed by The Daily Planet - New Troy Hospital is a hospital in Metropolis - Perry sends Clark (Matrix) home because he's acting strange only hours after deciding that he, Lois, and Cat should stay at the Daily Planet because their lives may be in danger from Intergang? Guess Perez forgot that plot point from the previous issue. - So, a year ago, Superman was saving Metropolis from new superhuman threats three times a month. Then, suddenly, just when he leaves Earth, nothing happens for eight months. And now, within hours of his return...  Convenient much? - This page:  Where do I begin? So Superman's super hearing doesn't notice a whole bunch of non-stealthy people sneaking up behind him? And Byrne explained once that the reason no one can recognize that Superman's face looks like Clark Kent's when photographed is because he vibrates his head back and forth in order to distort the image, but he doesn't have time to do that here because they catch him by surprise (which still doesn't make sense considering his super speed). So didn't the Daily Planet just plaster a close-up image of Superman's face for all of Metropolis to see and take note of? Yup, lots of little logic flaws in this issue, but it's GREAT to see Superman acting like Superman for the first time in a LONG while. We've moved as far away from Byrne as possible here, and I welcome that, though I look forward to Ordway and Jurgens giving a little more attention to reconciling old Byrne continuity down the road. Perhaps that won't happen until Perez departs (as a kid, I began reading roughly a year from this point. The Perez Era is entirely unknown to me). plot synopsis in one sentence: Superman returns, Lois and Jose get rescued, Superman takes down Turmoil (the big robot from last issue), Superman goes to confront Edge, but Edge has a heart attack and is in critical condition, Jose will make a full recovery, it turns out that DeSaad was posing as Darkseid throughout this entire affair, and Clark returns to his apartment to discover Matrix (as Clark) blown up and knocked unconscious by the Eradicator Device. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 1, 2015 15:19:50 GMT -5
Old Byrne Plot Points Still Left Unresolved
Perez is trying to wipe the slate clean, but we'll also see Ordway working to resolve old plot points as early as next issue. Thus, for our own convenience, I present my best off-the-top-of-my-head effort to catalog all past Byrne continuity that still remains unresolved. Chime in if you think of something I forgot:
Note: I'm not including villains that left and might show up again or who still have mysteries involved in their backstories. It goes without saying that we'll see more from Silver Banshee, Draaga, Mxyzptlk, and the like.
Needs to be resolved:
- There has now been a laboratory floating in orbit of Earth containing ALL of Superman's secret information since Superman #1, and yet no one has noticed it yet.
- Elinore Lane (Lois' mother) is still battling a deadly illness. Luthor is controlling Lois in exchange for treating her mom.
- Amanda McCoy is trying to prove that Clark Kent is Superman and was inadvertently involved in the death of the private detective aiding her.
- When is Perry going to learn his "son" Jerry is the biological son of Lex Luthor?
- STAR Labs. Morgan Edge just bought the controlling stock in it, so what happens if he dies? What's up with the new director of STAR labs who was implied to be shady and have questioble motives several months back?
- Jimmy Olsen's mom is still trying to find his dad now that she has a photograph proving he is alive.
- Luthor and the Kryptonite radiation. I can't recall if it's been explained that he is dying from it yet.
Getting addressed right now:
Jose as Gangbuster. Will that continue to be a thing?
Morgan Edge
The Eradicator Device
Skyhook and (presumably) Maggie Sawyer's daughter next issue
Matrix
Probably should be revisited:
-Jimmy Olsen dating Lucy Lane (last mentioned in Superman #4)
-Cat Grant's son. We had some serious foreshadowing that things were going to go bad for that young man.
-Will there ever be a "real" Bizarro in the Post-Crisis, or are we stuck with the lame clone concept we got in Man of Steel #5?
-Will there ever be another Metallo beyond the one who got his butt handed to him in Superman #1 and then died in #2?
-Lois and Superman shared a kiss during The Earth Stealers
-Alice, the timid, mild-mannered staffer at the Daily Planet who kept getting mentioned and shown for no apparent reason over the course of several issues. Still wondering if that was an office in-joke and Alice was supposed to represent someone at DC.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 1, 2015 16:32:25 GMT -5
Superman #34  "By Hook or by Crook!" writer: Jerry Ordway pencils: Kerry Gammill inks: Dennis Janke colors: Glenn Whitmore letters: John Costanza assoc. editor: Jon Peterson editor: Mike Carlin grade: C- The trend from last issue continues as old dangling continuity is resurrected just so that it can be put to bed as quickly as possible. There's really nothing noteworthy about the return of Skyhook beyond his origin and the fact that, on the last page, he conveniently dies, resolving every plot point left dangling since his previous appearance ( Superman #15). We learn who he was, how he came to be, and what his motives were, watch the mutations he caused in all those children immediately disappear upon his inadvertent and convenient-as-all-heck death, and even see Maggie Sawyer and her ex-husband work out their problems. Everything falls into place far far too easily by the close. Important Details: - Skyhook's real name was Aleister Hook, a London doctor from the late 19th century. In 1889, he was caught kidnapping children to use in his own little crime syndicate, was burnt to death by a mob, and inadvertently made a pact with Satan when he was trying to pray to God in the process. - Death of Skyhook (again -- presumably for real this time) - Jimmy Olsen snaps a photo of Clark Kent (Matrix) and Superman standing side by side. I'm sure this will come in handy down the road. - Maggie Sawyer's ex husband is James Sawyer. Interesting that Maggie kept the last name. - First appearances of Dr. Rodriguez and Security Head Gabrelli over at Project Cadmus (simply called "The Project" here). They were working on curing Skyhook's "children" between Superman #15 and the events of this issue. Minor Details: - Jimmy Olsen mentions he is coming down with something. Is this going somewhere? If not, why mention it? plot synopsis in one sentence: We're given the origin of Skyhook, he returns JUST as Maggie and James Sawyer have been summoned to Project Cadmus to discuss using their daughter, Jamie, to find a cure for the other children Skyhood mutated since her mutation was not as far along, Skyhook mentally commands his children to return to him, Maggie and James pursue and summon Superman for help, and they inadvertently kill Skyhook by tricking him into impaling himself on a cross, pretty much solving everything including the mutations. |
|
|
|
Post by Action Ace on Dec 1, 2015 19:49:46 GMT -5
Old Byrne Plot Points Still Left UnresolvedPerez is trying to wipe the slate clean, but we'll also see Ordway working to resolve old plot points as early as next issue. Thus, for our own convenience, I present my best off-the-top-of-my-head effort to catalog all past Byrne continuity that still remains unresolved. Chime in if you think of something I forgot: Note: I'm not including villains that left and might show up again or who still have mysteries involved in their backstories. It goes without saying that we'll see more from Silver Banshee, Draaga, Mxyzptlk, and the like. Needs to be resolved:- There has now been a laboratory floating in orbit of Earth containing ALL of Superman's secret information since Superman #1, and yet no one has noticed it yet. - Elinore Lane (Lois' mother) is still battling a deadly illness. Luthor is controlling Lois in exchange for treating her mom. - Amanda McCoy is trying to prove that Clark Kent is Superman and was inadvertently involved in the death of the private detective aiding her. - When is Perry going to learn his "son" Jerry is the biological son of Lex Luthor? - STAR Labs. Morgan Edge just bought the controlling stock in it, so what happens if he dies? What's up with the new director of STAR labs who was implied to be shady and have questioble motives several months back? - Jimmy Olsen's mom is still trying to find his dad now that she has a photograph proving he is alive. - Luthor and the Kryptonite radiation. I can't recall if it's been explained that he is dying from it yet. Getting addressed right now:Jose as Gangbuster. Will that continue to be a thing? Morgan Edge The Eradicator Device Skyhook and (presumably) Maggie Sawyer's daughter next issue Matrix Probably should be revisited:-Jimmy Olsen dating Lucy Lane (last mentioned in Superman #4) -Cat Grant's son. We had some serious foreshadowing that things were going to go bad for that young man. -Will there ever be a "real" Bizarro in the Post-Crisis, or are we stuck with the lame clone concept we got in Man of Steel #5? -Will there ever be another Metallo beyond the one who got his butt handed to him in Superman #1 and then died in #2? -Lois and Superman shared a kiss during The Earth Stealers all your answers can be found HERE |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,821
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 1, 2015 20:16:07 GMT -5
all your answers can be found HEREOh wow do I miss Soap! Nice reference, there |
|
For some reason that reference about the threshing machine stayed with me (maybe because I grew up on a farm and have a horrible idea of what a thresher might do to someone).