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Post by dupersuper on Jun 16, 2016 22:06:02 GMT -5
It is noted by Superman in this issue that he never raced Barry in Post-Crisis continuity. Don't expect that retcon to last...
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Post by dupersuper on Jun 16, 2016 22:10:13 GMT -5
Now THAT I'd like to see! There is no race, but Flash #66 by Waid is still an issue worth checking out. Books by Waid generally are...
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 16, 2016 22:38:09 GMT -5
Regarding your timeline I've generally just went with an "agree to disagree" stance and tried not to nitpick, but assigning specific years seems really problematic at best with the comic book sliding time scale. I didn't assign actual years when I did the same thing for the Post-Crisis Batman, but the Superman stories have continually made references to real world events and, in several circumstances, actual years, so it made sense to go that route. As I only plan to continue this thread through Superman's return from the dead (a total of less than ten years of publication) it seems reasonable to assume there isn't much of a sliding scale needed. And wasn't that what Zero Hour was for? I updated the timeline again (and conceded the Barry Allen thing) upon reading and reviewing Action #650, right after the review you're quoting. Prior to that, there wasn't much established about Superman's relationship with the Justice League within the Superman Office.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 16, 2016 23:36:59 GMT -5
Action Comics #650 The team remembers him saving the day on some of their earliest adventures (Xotar, The Weapons Master) as well as some of their later ones (Starbreaker, Darkseid). Important Details:- Superman assisted the Justice League many times between 1984 and 1987 (cross-referencing their time references with The Post-Crisis Superman Timeline), was offered membership, declined due to time constraints, and is revered and befriended by the membership (NOTE: Batman is not shown to have been a member during any of these adventures and can thus remain an uneasy ally to Superman instead of a clear friend). - Superman is revered as a hero across the universe for defeating Draaga and overthrowing Warworld ( Superman #33).
One thing that I never thought stood up to scrutiny was Superman's post-Crisis status as the Greatest Superhero of Them All. Of course, I never really scrutinized these issues as you have Shaxper, but the enchantment, awe, and downright adulation other heroes display towards the Man of Steel never felt quite warranted in the years following Crisis. Sure, he's the first of a new generation of heroes (though he still followed Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and quite a number of other Golden Agers) but at this point in his career at least, his number one foe is a corporate businessman that the world doesn't even realize is a bad guy. His number two villain - Brainiac - is, at this point in your reviews, being rescued from the pits Byrne left him in but is still a ways away from being an immediately identifiable threat to the world at large. Draaga and Warworld didn't really have much of an impact on our planet, so I guess what I'm wondering is, what has Superman done to warrant such prestige even within the superhero community? Is it the fact that he ushered in the modern age of heroes? The vast array of powers (though they be not that much different from the Martian Manhunter or wider in scope than Green Lantern)? Or just the fact that he gets better press via The Daily Planet? Or am I thinking too much about this?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 16, 2016 23:40:04 GMT -5
One thing that I never thought stood up to scrutiny was Superman's post-Crisis status as the Greatest Superhero of Them All. Of course, I never really scrutinized these issues as you have Shaxper, but the enchantment, awe, and downright adulation other heroes display towards the Man of Steel never felt quite warranted in the years following Crisis. Sure, he's the first of a new generation of heroes (though he still followed Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and quite a number of other Golden Agers) but at this point in his career at least, his number one foe is a corporate businessman that the world doesn't even realize is a bad guy. His number two villain - Brainiac - is, at this point in your reviews, being rescued from the pits Byrne left him in but is still a ways away from being an immediately identifiable threat to the world at large. Draaga and Warworld didn't really have much of an impact on our planet, so I guess what I'm wondering is, what has Superman done to warrant such prestige even within the superhero community? Is it the fact that he ushered in the modern age of heroes? The vast array of powers (though they be not that much different from the Martian Manhunter or wider in scope than Green Lantern)? Or just the fact that he gets better press via The Daily Planet? Or am I thinking too much about this? I get the sense that what awed them was his involvement in their own adventures (several of which are cited in the story in question). J'onn J'onzz makes it clear that The League would have lost in each of those circumstances if not for Superman. I don't think they give a flying fig about Lex Luthor or Brainiac, but they sure as heck appreciate Superman taking down Darkseid.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 17, 2016 8:38:56 GMT -5
- Jimmy and The Guardian are now at Project Cadmus with questions to ask of the directors regarding this: which, by the way, is presented as a recap even though neither we nor Jimmy were ever told the first part previously. So, my bad in not knowing this until now (and I can't believe no one corrected me on this), but this entire plot line is straight out of Kirby's run on Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen. I understood that Project Cadmus came from there, but not these specific characters nor their backstory (and that includes their "Syms" -- guess Claremont was the true thief there). To be completely honest, I've only read New Gods previously. I haven't read the Jimmy Olsen stuff beyond #133 and #134 (still trying to acquire the Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibuses for a reasonable price). In the letter column for Superman #41, Ordway explains that he's a massive fan of The Fourth World and intends to keep bringing aspects of it into the Superman title, so I'll have to find a way to start reading all of these soon.
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Post by MDG on Jun 17, 2016 10:53:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure I follow you, but then again, I really don't have an eye comic book art. With five pencilers and four inkers contributing to that issue, are you suggesting there's a house style at work? I don't mind a house style, especially when the titles were so intertwined, but the style here becomes a little too realistic. Cartoony elements like Mxyzptlk or some of the aliens seem out of place. There's a similar thing when Adams drew some Weisinger edited stories, or his Spectre issues. A very illustrative style doesn't mesh with some of the fantastic elements. Swan was very realistic, but simplified. I dunno. I think Superman is a character who works best with a clean, no frills house style. I agree--I just don't think this is clean or no-frills. Post-Austin inking with a lot of lines and fewer spotted blacks.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 17, 2016 10:58:51 GMT -5
I don't mind a house style, especially when the titles were so intertwined, but the style here becomes a little too realistic. Cartoony elements like Mxyzptlk or some of the aliens seem out of place. There's a similar thing when Adams drew some Weisinger edited stories, or his Spectre issues. A very illustrative style doesn't mesh with some of the fantastic elements. Swan was very realistic, but simplified. I get where you're coming from now. However, I think that was very much the point that Carlin/Perez/Stern/Ordway/Jurgens were going for. They're trying to find a balance where the Post-Crisis Superman can be taken seriously and have realistic elements, especially in character relationships, while still meshing with the best of the Pre-Crisis hokiness. I think they WANT Mxyzptlk and other fantastic elements to look as out of place in this world as they must to the world of Metropolis itself.
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Post by Action Ace on Jun 17, 2016 13:22:00 GMT -5
Action Comics #650 The team remembers him saving the day on some of their earliest adventures (Xotar, The Weapons Master) as well as some of their later ones (Starbreaker, Darkseid). Important Details:- Superman assisted the Justice League many times between 1984 and 1987 (cross-referencing their time references with The Post-Crisis Superman Timeline), was offered membership, declined due to time constraints, and is revered and befriended by the membership (NOTE: Batman is not shown to have been a member during any of these adventures and can thus remain an uneasy ally to Superman instead of a clear friend). - Superman is revered as a hero across the universe for defeating Draaga and overthrowing Warworld ( Superman #33).
One thing that I never thought stood up to scrutiny was Superman's post-Crisis status as the Greatest Superhero of Them All. Of course, I never really scrutinized these issues as you have Shaxper, but the enchantment, awe, and downright adulation other heroes display towards the Man of Steel never felt quite warranted in the years following Crisis. Sure, he's the first of a new generation of heroes (though he still followed Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and quite a number of other Golden Agers) but at this point in his career at least, his number one foe is a corporate businessman that the world doesn't even realize is a bad guy. His number two villain - Brainiac - is, at this point in your reviews, being rescued from the pits Byrne left him in but is still a ways away from being an immediately identifiable threat to the world at large. Draaga and Warworld didn't really have much of an impact on our planet, so I guess what I'm wondering is, what has Superman done to warrant such prestige even within the superhero community? Is it the fact that he ushered in the modern age of heroes? The vast array of powers (though they be not that much different from the Martian Manhunter or wider in scope than Green Lantern)? Or just the fact that he gets better press via The Daily Planet? Or am I thinking too much about this?
Superman not being the first superhero is one of the things I dislike the most about Post-Crisis DC.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 17, 2016 13:38:50 GMT -5
A Breakdown of the Changing Creative Teams and Editorial Policies that Shaped the Post-Crisis SupermanBy 1989 (and likely earlier), annual "Super Summits" were being held in which editor and creative teams would work together to shape the coming year's worth of Superman stories. During these summits, policies and visions were shaped, and sometimes old policies and visions were scrapped entirely. Here's my best understanding of how those visions and policies looked from year to year: 1986-1987: The Initial Relaunch The original concept for the Superman reboot came from Frank Miller and Steve Gerber and envisioned a depowered Superman, some of the more fantastic elements of the mythos (for example: Superboy) being removed from continuity, and Lex Luthor as a business tycoon. Marv Wolfman fought hard to get on the project but knew that DC wanted a bigger powerhouse creative talent on the book, so he recommended John Byrne. Wolfman and editor Andrew Helfer shared the original pitched vision for a Superman reboot, but Byrne, a longtime Superman fan, wanted the campier/more fantastic elements back in continuity. Thus, while the initial emphasis is on a depowered/less perfect Superman facing depowered, less fantastic enemies, Byrne begins reintroducing those more fantastic elements (including Mxyzptlk and a Pocket Universe Superboy) by the fall of 1987. At this point, Superman is the core title, written and drawn by Byrne, while Wolfman and Jerry Ordway control Adventures of Superman, and Action Comics is a Byrne-controlled team-up title. Wolfman does not seem allowed to utilize Lex Luthor in his stories. A drastic ideological difference develops between Byrne's and Wolfman's handling of Superman. Wolfman tries to "depower" Superman by placing him in morally and existentially difficult circumstances, where Byrne tries more to "depower" him by depicting Superman as having the personality of an average person -- quick to anger, succumb to temptations, and make mistakes, and also falling into decidedly un-heroic situations. The Action Comics storyline in which Superman and Barda fall under the hypnotic spell of a pornographer is practically infamous today and turned many fans away from the Post-Crisis Superman that Byrne was writing. 1988: Everyone Jumps Ship 1988 is a year of massive shake-ups for the Superman Office. It begins without Marv Wolfman, leaving presumably due to creative differences with John Byrne, who is increasingly shaping the franchise to suit his own vision. Editor Andrew Helfer soon follows suit, replaced with Mike Carlin. Byrne introduces a series of limited runs throughout 1988 (World of Krypton, World of Smallville, World of Metropolis) that further flesh out his vision of the Post-Crisis Superman Universe and culminates the year with the arrival of the Pocket Universe Supergirl, as well as the controversial moment in which Superman executes the rogue Kryptonians who destroyed the Pocket Universe Earth. In June, Byrne loses control of Action Comics in favor of the Action Comics Weekly experiment. Byrne then departs (seemingly abruptly) in the Fall, claiming that DC was constraining him too much. 1989: The Clean-up Year The remaining people in the Superman office -- fill-in writer Roger Stern, Adventures of Superman co-plotter and artist Jerry Ordway, and new editor Mike Carlin -- shift from following Byrne's vision to suddenly having to cultivate one of their own. After playing out Byrne's intended direction for Superman in the wake of his execution of the rogue Kryptonians, the Superman Office spend four months attempting to restrategize while Superman (literally) wanders aimlessly in space, ultimately reorganizing for the second half of 1989 with George Perez as lead creator, and Roger Stern and Jerry Ordway plotting beside him, while Dan Jurgens and Kerry Gammill handle penciling chores. After taking on Mogul and Warworld, Superman returns to Earth to coincide with Action Comics reverting to a monthly Superman book. The titles are reorganized so that Action Comics focuses on Superman's adventures, The Superman title gives greater emphasis to the supporting cast and Superman's life as Clark Kent, and Adventures of Superman focuses on Superman's Kryptonian heritage. Most of the emphasis throughout 1989 is on cleaning up and completing old Byrne plot points still left hanging. But, most importantly, Perez pushes for a return to Superman's more classic characterization (which Stern and Ordway had already been subtly working at) and reverses the original idea of keeping the more fantastic Pre-Crisis elements out of Post-Crisis continuity. We get a Fortress of Solitude, Red Kryptonite, several homages to Pre-Crisis storylines, and a clear acknowledgement that this Superman has been as much the patriarch of the DC superheroes as his Pre-Crisis counterpart. Unfortunately, Perez's involvement in the new direction quickly downshifts from lead creator to marginal contributor, both due to over-commitment on other projects and health issues. As a result, Dan Jurgens is soon upgraded to writer/penciler and comes into his own beside Ordway and Stern. 1990: New Directions and Multi-Title Crossovers 1990 marks yet another restructuring of the Superman titles as the previous narrow focuses imposed by George Perez are now lifted, allowing for multi-part story arcs regularly sweeping across all three titles. In addition, with most of Byrne's old storylines resolved, the franchise begins moving in bold new directions, including two major deaths and the quick acceleration of Clark and Lois' relationship into territory the Pre-Crisis couple never arrived at. Additionally, the tense relationship between Batman and Superman, established in Dark Knight Returns and supported by both the Batman and Superman offices, gets undone with the Dark Knight over Metropolis storyline. (this post will be updated as my reviews progress past 1990 )
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Post by Action Ace on Jun 17, 2016 15:14:04 GMT -5
The Super Summit of 1991 will have to redo everything they had planned in the Super Summit of 1990 because of something else going on in the Time Warner empire. The 1990 Summit probably had to address an upcoming addition to the world of Superman comics as well.
Then, a joking suggestion at all these Super Summits will become reality. And make history.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 17, 2016 17:40:03 GMT -5
The Super Summit of 1991 will have to redo everything they had planned in the Super Summit of 1990 because of something else going on in the Time Warner empire. Lois & Clark? Man of Steel? Marriage?
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Post by Action Ace on Jun 17, 2016 19:37:00 GMT -5
The Super Summit of 1991 will have to redo everything they had planned in the Super Summit of 1990 because of something else going on in the Time Warner empire. Lois & Clark? Man of Steel? Marriage? Now don't be sad. Cause two out of three ain't bad.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2016 22:06:58 GMT -5
The joke suggestion was always hey what if we killed Superman....because no one ever thought they would, and then the dollar signs flashed and well...suddenly the punchline for the joke (or butt of the joke) was the readers and customer base.
-M
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Post by shaxper on Jun 17, 2016 23:48:00 GMT -5
The joke suggestion was always hey what if we killed Superman....because no one ever thought they would, and then the dollar signs flashed and well...suddenly the punchline for the joke (or butt of the joke) was the readers and customer base. -M Yes, but that came a lot later than 1991.
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