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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 0:06:07 GMT -5
It was published in 1992 (#75 had a cover date of Jan 1993 and the storyline started early-mid 1992)so the planning for it started at the Super-summit of 1991, at least that's where the ground work was laid for it.
-M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 18, 2016 0:14:54 GMT -5
It was published in 1992 (#75 had a cover date of Jan 1993 and the storyline started early-mid 1992)so the planning for it started at the Super-summit of 1991, at least that's where the ground work was laid for it. -M I stand corrected. For some reason, I remembered Knightfall (1994) as coming first, but that's not accurate.
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Post by Action Ace on Jun 18, 2016 13:30:27 GMT -5
The joke suggestion was always hey what if we killed Superman....because no one ever thought they would, and then the dollar signs flashed and well...suddenly the punchline for the joke (or butt of the joke) was the readers and customer base. -M And a quarter of a century later, the money is STILL coming in. The idea got rerun in a motion picture, the Death/ Funeral/ Return saga has been collected again and guess who showed up in Action Comics last week with one of his co-creators in tow? Good job Super team, well done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 13:53:33 GMT -5
The joke suggestion was always hey what if we killed Superman....because no one ever thought they would, and then the dollar signs flashed and well...suddenly the punchline for the joke (or butt of the joke) was the readers and customer base. -M And a quarter of a century later, the money is STILL coming in. The idea got rerun in a motion picture, the Death/ Funeral/ Return saga has been collected again and guess who showed up in Action Comics last week with one of his co-creators in tow? Good job Super team, well done. Such a good job that it was the key event in the speculator boom than bust that drove sales down over the next two decades by large percentages necessitating event after event, reboot after reboot type events to try to bolster jobs. It may have generated money in the short term, but the trickle of revenue coming in doesn't make up for the years of lost revenue this type of publishing stunt precipitated. So yes, good job Super-team, the unintended consequences of your work are staggeringly impressive, though not necessarily in a good way. -M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 18, 2016 18:46:22 GMT -5
And a quarter of a century later, the money is STILL coming in. The idea got rerun in a motion picture, the Death/ Funeral/ Return saga has been collected again and guess who showed up in Action Comics last week with one of his co-creators in tow? Good job Super team, well done. Such a good job that it was the key event in the speculator boom than bust that drove sales down over the next two decades by large percentages necessitating event after event, reboot after reboot type events to try to bolster jobs. It may have generated money in the short term, but the trickle of revenue coming in doesn't make up for the years of lost revenue this type of publishing stunt precipitated. So yes, good job Super-team, the unintended consequences of your work are staggeringly impressive, though not necessarily in a good way. -M That's not entirely fair. Marvel had been pulling stunts to boost short term sales for two years by that point. DC tried to fight back with quality work and assumed the readership would make the more intelligent choice. But, after two years, their market share had plummeted to under 20% and people were about to lose their jobs. Blame the readers, blame the media, blame Marvel and Image. DC did what they needed to do in order to survive when taking the high road for two years had nearly ended up destroying them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 22:32:20 GMT -5
Such a good job that it was the key event in the speculator boom than bust that drove sales down over the next two decades by large percentages necessitating event after event, reboot after reboot type events to try to bolster jobs. It may have generated money in the short term, but the trickle of revenue coming in doesn't make up for the years of lost revenue this type of publishing stunt precipitated. So yes, good job Super-team, the unintended consequences of your work are staggeringly impressive, though not necessarily in a good way. -M That's not entirely fair. Marvel had been pulling stunts to boost short term sales for two years by that point. DC tried to fight back with quality work and assumed the readership would make the more intelligent choice. But, after two years, their market share had plummeted to under 20% and people were about to lose their jobs. Blame the readers, blame the media, blame Marvel and Image. DC did what they needed to do in order to survive when taking the high road for two years had nearly ended up destroying them. Neither Marvel nor Image made outreach to major media outside comics to announce they were killing of a major character in an attempt to get people outside the comics industry to come in and speculate on the issue, Marvel and Image were trying to shift market share within the existing audience, which is what had been happening for time immemorial, DC went to news outlets with press releases about how much Action #1 was selling for and that they were killing Superman and how much would this book be worth. Yes, you can point fingers at others, byut DC was the one openly going outside the comics field promoting the book as an investment in the future, juxtaposing it to Action #1's worth on the market which was just beginning to spiral, and try to woo people into buying the book as an investment. It was a deliberate strategy to sell people who didn't know any better a bill of goods to get them to buy the book on what in reality was false pretenses. The death of Superman hoopla more than any other single event brought a mass of "civilian" speculators into the market and caused the boom which would then bust. So not absolving Marvel or Image of blame in the matter, but DC is the one who upped the ante by courting the mass media and the civilian investor who didn't know jack about the comics industry or collector's market. The media didn't just happen upon this story, they were courted and invited in by press releases to major network media outlets, and that was far from the norm at the time. Today we see Marvel using USA Today as a press organ as well as traditional comics media like CBR, in the early 90s that was absolutely unheard of and it was DC alone who took it to that level with the Death of Superman, then the breaking of the Bat (which had diminished returns compared to Superman because a number of people were already in fool me once, shame on you mode and were't going for it this time), then the fall of GL but by that point the world had already done the fool me twice we're done thing and no one paid attention outside the hardcore audience (and that at that point unless you watched Super Friends or listened to Donovan songs in the early 70s you had no idea who GL was if you weren't a comics reader). Image and Marvel may have been playing with fire but DC deliberately doused the industry in accelerant to try to make a buck at any cost. -M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 19, 2016 19:53:50 GMT -5
Neither Marvel nor Image made outreach to major media outside comics to announce they were killing of a major character in an attempt to get people outside the comics industry to come in and speculate on the issue, Marvel and Image were trying to shift market share within the existing audience, which is what had been happening for time immemorial, DC went to news outlets with press releases about how much Action #1 was selling for and that they were killing Superman and how much would this book be worth. Yes, you can point fingers at others, byut DC was the one openly going outside the comics field promoting the book as an investment in the future, juxtaposing it to Action #1's worth on the market which was just beginning to spiral, and try to woo people into buying the book as an investment. It was a deliberate strategy to sell people who didn't know any better a bill of goods to get them to buy the book on what in reality was false pretenses. The death of Superman hoopla more than any other single event brought a mass of "civilian" speculators into the market and caused the boom which would then bust. First, once again, it was do or die for DC. Because of the market Marvel and Image had created, a comic company couldn't survive on quality alone anymore, and Marvel and Image had already exploited every other possible gimmick to its full extent. DC was literally holding 16% of the market share in the month prior to Superman #75's release. They were out of options. Second, non-comic book readers had already been coming into comic book stores for two years now, trying to "invest" in buying multiple copies of the next big thing. I distinctly recall a newspaper article published around this time in Newsday, a New York Newspaper my parents read, arguing that comic books were a more solid investment than the stock market. I also remember an adult coming into my LCS when X-Men #1 hit the stands (who stuck out like a sore thumb because he was unusually well dressed compared to the regular clientele) and explaining that he didn't read the comics -- he just knew these were going to be worth big money. DC may have been the first to outright cater to the media and to non-comic book fans (well, not really -- that's exactly how Eastman and Laird got started), but the trend was already happening; DC was just finally playing the game and playing it well. Hype, speculation, outside investors swooping in -- this was already the game. The only new dimension they added was killing a character off just to boost sales (of course, they'd already done that back in '88 with Jason Todd). So really, I'm not clear on what was so bad about DC's move with Superman; nothing you listed was unique to this particular "stunt". I think a lot of people were griping at the time simply because they'd put all their eggs in the Marvel and Image baskets and were on the losing side when DC came out on top for a short while. And, if killing off a character who was clearly going to return seemed like a cheap stunt that insulted the reader's intelligence, just remember variant, covers, holograms, and polybags. X-Force #1 -- where people ran out to own all five copies of the exact same book with a different trading card inserted into the bag? Or how about the McFarlane Spider-Man #1 where you paid all that extra money JUST to get the bag?? By the way, for anyone interested, my old A Guide to Wizard: The Guide to Comics review thread chronicles much of the changing market during this time period, including Superman #75's place in the early '90s investment bubble.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 3:37:31 GMT -5
Neither Marvel nor Image made outreach to major media outside comics to announce they were killing of a major character in an attempt to get people outside the comics industry to come in and speculate on the issue, Marvel and Image were trying to shift market share within the existing audience, which is what had been happening for time immemorial, DC went to news outlets with press releases about how much Action #1 was selling for and that they were killing Superman and how much would this book be worth. Yes, you can point fingers at others, byut DC was the one openly going outside the comics field promoting the book as an investment in the future, juxtaposing it to Action #1's worth on the market which was just beginning to spiral, and try to woo people into buying the book as an investment. It was a deliberate strategy to sell people who didn't know any better a bill of goods to get them to buy the book on what in reality was false pretenses. The death of Superman hoopla more than any other single event brought a mass of "civilian" speculators into the market and caused the boom which would then bust. First, once again, it was do or die for DC. Because of the market Marvel and Image had created, a comic company couldn't survive on quality alone anymore, and Marvel and Image had already exploited every other possible gimmick to its full extent. DC was literally holding 16% of the market share in the month prior to Superman #75's release. They were out of options. Second, non-comic book readers had already been coming into comic book stores for two years now, trying to "invest" in buying multiple copies of the next big thing. I distinctly recall a newspaper article published around this time in Newsday, a New York Newspaper my parents read, arguing that comic books were a more solid investment than the stock market. I also remember an adult coming into my LCS when X-Men #1 hit the stands (who stuck out like a sore thumb because he was unusually well dressed compared to the regular clientele) and explaining that he didn't read the comics -- he just knew these were going to be worth big money. DC may have been the first to outright cater to the media and to non-comic book fans (well, not really -- that's exactly how Eastman and Laird got started), but the trend was already happening; DC was just finally playing the game and playing it well. Hype, speculation, outside investors swooping in -- this was already the game. The only new dimension they added was killing a character off just to boost sales (of course, they'd already done that back in '88 with Jason Todd). So really, I'm not clear on what was so bad about DC's move with Superman; nothing you listed was unique to this particular "stunt". I think a lot of people were griping at the time simply because they'd put all their eggs in the Marvel and Image baskets and were on the losing side when DC came out on top for a short while. And, if killing off a character who was clearly going to return seemed like a cheap stunt that insulted the reader's intelligence, just remember variant, covers, holograms, and polybags. X-Force #1 -- where people ran out to own all five copies of the exact same book with a different trading card inserted into the bag? Or how about the McFarlane Spider-Man #1 where you paid all that extra money JUST to get the bag?? By the way, for anyone interested, my old A Guide to Wizard: The Guide to Comics review thread chronicles much of the changing market during this time period, including Superman #75's place in the early '90s investment bubble. Oh you mean the trend started by DC in 1989 with Legends of the Dark Knight #1 (before Image was ever founded and before Marvel did any multiple covers) with the multi-colors of cover wraps outside the same cover so people would buy multiple copies of the same book in the wake of the Batmania following the Burton film? Or in 1987 with the test market covers for Justice League and Firestorm creating collectibles for people to buy the same comic multiple times, or the multiple covers for MAn of Steel #1 in 1986/1987 when Byrne came on board, or... people like to point to Marvel and Image and their marketing hijinks, but most of those marketing tricks were first put out there by DC, others just did them bigger and better and DC took it on the chin when others used their own tactics against them, and kept trying to up the ante to keep up a game they started and couldn't keep up with. -M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 20, 2016 7:57:42 GMT -5
First, once again, it was do or die for DC. Because of the market Marvel and Image had created, a comic company couldn't survive on quality alone anymore, and Marvel and Image had already exploited every other possible gimmick to its full extent. DC was literally holding 16% of the market share in the month prior to Superman #75's release. They were out of options. Second, non-comic book readers had already been coming into comic book stores for two years now, trying to "invest" in buying multiple copies of the next big thing. I distinctly recall a newspaper article published around this time in Newsday, a New York Newspaper my parents read, arguing that comic books were a more solid investment than the stock market. I also remember an adult coming into my LCS when X-Men #1 hit the stands (who stuck out like a sore thumb because he was unusually well dressed compared to the regular clientele) and explaining that he didn't read the comics -- he just knew these were going to be worth big money. DC may have been the first to outright cater to the media and to non-comic book fans (well, not really -- that's exactly how Eastman and Laird got started), but the trend was already happening; DC was just finally playing the game and playing it well. Hype, speculation, outside investors swooping in -- this was already the game. The only new dimension they added was killing a character off just to boost sales (of course, they'd already done that back in '88 with Jason Todd). So really, I'm not clear on what was so bad about DC's move with Superman; nothing you listed was unique to this particular "stunt". I think a lot of people were griping at the time simply because they'd put all their eggs in the Marvel and Image baskets and were on the losing side when DC came out on top for a short while. And, if killing off a character who was clearly going to return seemed like a cheap stunt that insulted the reader's intelligence, just remember variant, covers, holograms, and polybags. X-Force #1 -- where people ran out to own all five copies of the exact same book with a different trading card inserted into the bag? Or how about the McFarlane Spider-Man #1 where you paid all that extra money JUST to get the bag?? By the way, for anyone interested, my old A Guide to Wizard: The Guide to Comics review thread chronicles much of the changing market during this time period, including Superman #75's place in the early '90s investment bubble. Oh you mean the trend started by DC in 1989 with Legends of the Dark Knight #1 (before Image was ever founded and before Marvel did any multiple covers) with the multi-colors of cover wraps outside the same cover so people would buy multiple copies of the same book in the wake of the Batmania following the Burton film? Or in 1987 with the test market covers for Justice League and Firestorm creating collectibles for people to buy the same comic multiple times, or the multiple covers for MAn of Steel #1 in 1986/1987 when Byrne came on board, or... people like to point to Marvel and Image and their marketing hijinks, but most of those marketing tricks were first put out there by DC, others just did them bigger and better and DC took it on the chin when others used their own tactics against them, and kept trying to up the ante to keep up a game they started and couldn't keep up with. -M Fair enough. We can argue all day about which company took it too far, but suffice to say, you've just backed up my point that none of it began with the Death of Superman.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 18:30:18 GMT -5
Began, no, the tipping point where it was flipping over to go belly up...sure. But it began with DC, pretty much all the things that caused the issues were brought into the game by DC, but others took them and did them better and more successfully leaving DC to constantly try to go bigger and bring even more new things in, such as what they did with the Death of Superman where they broke the camel's back. They would start a trend, fall behind, then get desperate and try to play catch up by upping the stakes again, inevitably ham-handedly until it all fell apart. Marvel and Image were only doing what DC started, bigger and better, until DC tried to counter by pushing the envelope more and more with crap like the Death of Superman and courting more and more naive suckers into their game. The Superman office were just doing typical DC stuff, the problem was it was typical because DC introduced it into the game to begin with and it started with the Super-office with the Byrne Man of Steel with multiple covers, double shipping and then new #1s to get more people on board (gee does that sound familiar with what's plaguing the direct market still to this day). Death of Superman is them doing what they always did, and just as badly with just as many terrible consequences for the industry and the exploited customer base, who ate it up so got what they deserved in some sense.
-M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 20, 2016 19:02:07 GMT -5
Began, no, the tipping point where it was flipping over to go belly up...sure. But it began with DC, pretty much all the things that caused the issues were brought into the game by DC, but others took them and did them better and more successfully leaving DC to constantly try to go bigger and bring even more new things in, such as what they did with the Death of Superman where they broke the camel's back. They would start a trend, fall behind, then get desperate and try to play catch up by upping the stakes again, inevitably ham-handedly until it all fell apart. Marvel and Image were only doing what DC started, bigger and better, until DC tried to counter by pushing the envelope more and more with crap like the Death of Superman and courting more and more naive suckers into their game. The Superman office were just doing typical DC stuff, the problem was it was typical because DC introduced it into the game to begin with and it started with the Super-office with the Byrne Man of Steel with multiple covers, double shipping and then new #1s to get more people on board (gee does that sound familiar with what's plaguing the direct market still to this day). Death of Superman is them doing what they always did, and just as badly with just as many terrible consequences for the industry and the exploited customer base, who ate it up so got what they deserved in some sense. -M DC was far from the first to introduce the concept of marketing comics, or to pull stunts to get people to buy a comic they otherwise would pass up. Remember Dell and their elaborate campaigns to get kids to buy subscriptions to comics they didn't actually want back in the 1950s? DC pioneered some of the gimmicks Marvel later took to excess, but planting the blame squarely on them is neither accurate nor fair. Comics is a business and, especially once comics book companies are acquired by corporations, there is always going to be pressure to boost sales and profits. That's part of the game. Ideally, editors should do their best to make sure that the commercialization of comics doesn't compromise the integrity of comics and, in those early DC experiments you cited, they didn't. Legends of the Dark Knight #1 was a serious attempt to tell a good story (though I do feel O'Neil's ego got in the way of that, but that's another story), as was Justice League #1, and I'd even argue as was the critical chapter in Death in the Family where Jason Todd was found dead. And, absurd gimmick or not, Superman #75 was a damn excellent story too. Stupid concept, stupid stunt, stupid villain, but that story itself was brilliantly done and still brings tears to my eyes each time. So, if you want to blame DC for inventing the commercializing/gimmicking of comics, they were hardly the first nor was doing so wholly unreasonable; and if you want to blame them for putting gloss and sales numbers over content, then we'll have to agree to disagree there. I love Superman #75, like Justice League #1, and will occasionally choose to read Legends of the Dark Knight #1. I don't feel the same about McFarlane Spider-Man #1, X-Force #1, nor practically any of the holographic or die-cast cover comics Marvel released between '90 and '94. A few of the polybagged comics were actually good, surprisingly. DC tried to make more money, but they tried to give you something worthwhile in exchange. Marvel was peddling crap, and they knew it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 19:42:36 GMT -5
Began, no, the tipping point where it was flipping over to go belly up...sure. But it began with DC, pretty much all the things that caused the issues were brought into the game by DC, but others took them and did them better and more successfully leaving DC to constantly try to go bigger and bring even more new things in, such as what they did with the Death of Superman where they broke the camel's back. They would start a trend, fall behind, then get desperate and try to play catch up by upping the stakes again, inevitably ham-handedly until it all fell apart. Marvel and Image were only doing what DC started, bigger and better, until DC tried to counter by pushing the envelope more and more with crap like the Death of Superman and courting more and more naive suckers into their game. The Superman office were just doing typical DC stuff, the problem was it was typical because DC introduced it into the game to begin with and it started with the Super-office with the Byrne Man of Steel with multiple covers, double shipping and then new #1s to get more people on board (gee does that sound familiar with what's plaguing the direct market still to this day). Death of Superman is them doing what they always did, and just as badly with just as many terrible consequences for the industry and the exploited customer base, who ate it up so got what they deserved in some sense. -M DC was far from the first to introduce the concept of marketing comics, or to pull stunts to get people to buy a comic they otherwise would pass up. Remember Dell and their elaborate campaigns to get kids to buy subscriptions to comics they didn't actually want back in the 1950s? DC pioneered some of the gimmicks Marvel later took to excess in the late 1980s. Planting the blame squarely on them is neither accurate nor fair. Comics is a business and, especially once comics book companies are acquired by corporations, there is always going to be pressure to boost sales and profits. That's part of the game. Ideally, editors should do their best to make sure that the commercialization of comics doesn't compromise the integrity of comics and, in those early DC experiments you cited, they didn't. Legends of the Dark Knight #1 was a serious attempt to tell a good story (though I do feel O'Neil's ego got in the way of that, but that's another story), as was Justice League #1, and I'd even argue as was the critical chapter in Death in the Family where Jason Todd was found dead. And, absurd gimmick or not, Superman #75 was a damn excellent story too. Stupid concept, stupid stunt, stupid villain, but that story itself was brilliantly done and still brings tears to my eyes each time. So, if you want to blame DC for inventing the commercializing/gimmicking of comics, they were hardly the first nor was doing so wholly unreasonable; and if you want to blame them for putting gloss and sales numbers over content, then we'll have to agree to disagree there. I love Superman #75, like Justice League #1, and will occasionally choose to read Legends of the Dark Knight #1. I don't feel the same about McFarlane Spider-Man #1, X-Force #1, nor practically any of the holographic or die-cast cover comics Marvel released between '90 and '94. A few of the polybagged comics were actually good, surprisingly. DC tried to make more money, but they tried to give you something worthwhile in exchange. Marvel was peddling crap, and they knew it. We'll have to disagree on the quality of Superman #75, I thought it was schmaltzy, ham-fisted and poorly executed and a bad story that relied on a plot puppet to achieve the writer's goals rather than a compelling conflict built on the character's identity or history. Doomsday is one of the least interesting MacGuffins I have ever had the displeasure of reading in a comic book. As someone who had been reading Superman since the Byrne reboot, this was the book that got me to drop Superman monthly books for a long long time because I thought it was terrible. I skipped most of the Funeral for a Friend stuff and the Reign of the Supermen that followed, and was only starting to sample Supes again when they did Red and Blue Superman killing any interest I had, and that was the last time I bought new Superman Comics until I sampled and passed on the new52 stuff. Not even someone like Busiek, whose work I generally like a lot, could bring me back to the fold after the biter taste of Superman #75 ad the ensuing event-orama storytelling the Superman office peddled after that until their house of cards crashed in on them. And DC wasn't the first to market comics, but the elements that plague modern comics marketing (variant covers, reboots, renumbering, double-shipping, etc.) and brought the industry crashing down all started with them and were brought to bear in the industry by DC. The quality of the story, good or bad, does little to absolve them or add blame to them for the damage they did to the long-term viability of the market. If you destroy your customer base, you have no one to sell stories to whether they are good or bad. DC started the fires, watched others build it up to more intense levels, then poured gasoline on the fires to try to catch up when they fell behind and didn't understand that all they were doing is destroying that which they were trying to build, again and again, and Didio and company still haven't learned those lessons. Giordano's influence kept a lot of the excesses in check, and Khan backed him usually, but once he was gone, those excesses began to run unchecked and the house of cards they built came crashing down. A few good stories here and there doesn't mean those destructive patterns of behavior were acceptable. Nor does the fact "everyone else" was doing it and they were desperate. They put themselves in the situation by starting the practices they weren't good enough to capitalize on causing themselves to fall further behind and grow more desperate. They dug their own grave, and even if some of the stuff looked/read good while they did it-they were still digging the grave. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 20, 2016 19:59:01 GMT -5
While I agree with MRP that the actual death of Superman was not a great story... "Reign of the Supermen" definitely was... and it gave us two great characters (Steel and the best modern Superboy), and two pretty good villains. Also, marketing wise, I think Hal going crazy/Zero Hour was the tipping point... Superman dying was just the start... we've got Batman getting replaced, The Artemis years of Wonder Woman, the Clone Saga, and the Crossing still years in the future .. never mind Extreme Justice.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 20, 2016 20:03:21 GMT -5
DC was far from the first to introduce the concept of marketing comics, or to pull stunts to get people to buy a comic they otherwise would pass up. Remember Dell and their elaborate campaigns to get kids to buy subscriptions to comics they didn't actually want back in the 1950s? DC pioneered some of the gimmicks Marvel later took to excess in the late 1980s. Planting the blame squarely on them is neither accurate nor fair. Comics is a business and, especially once comics book companies are acquired by corporations, there is always going to be pressure to boost sales and profits. That's part of the game. Ideally, editors should do their best to make sure that the commercialization of comics doesn't compromise the integrity of comics and, in those early DC experiments you cited, they didn't. Legends of the Dark Knight #1 was a serious attempt to tell a good story (though I do feel O'Neil's ego got in the way of that, but that's another story), as was Justice League #1, and I'd even argue as was the critical chapter in Death in the Family where Jason Todd was found dead. And, absurd gimmick or not, Superman #75 was a damn excellent story too. Stupid concept, stupid stunt, stupid villain, but that story itself was brilliantly done and still brings tears to my eyes each time. So, if you want to blame DC for inventing the commercializing/gimmicking of comics, they were hardly the first nor was doing so wholly unreasonable; and if you want to blame them for putting gloss and sales numbers over content, then we'll have to agree to disagree there. I love Superman #75, like Justice League #1, and will occasionally choose to read Legends of the Dark Knight #1. I don't feel the same about McFarlane Spider-Man #1, X-Force #1, nor practically any of the holographic or die-cast cover comics Marvel released between '90 and '94. A few of the polybagged comics were actually good, surprisingly. DC tried to make more money, but they tried to give you something worthwhile in exchange. Marvel was peddling crap, and they knew it. We'll have to disagree on the quality of Superman #75, I thought it was schmaltzy, ham-fisted and poorly executed and a bad story that relied on a plot puppet to achieve the writer's goals rather than a compelling conflict built on the character's identity or history. Doomsday is one of the least interesting MacGuffins I have ever had the displeasure of reading in a comic book. As someone who had been reading Superman since the Byrne reboot, this was the book that got me to drop Superman monthly books for a long long time because I thought it was terrible. I skipped most of the Funeral for a Friend stuff and the Reign of the Supermen that followed, and was only starting to sample Supes again when they did Red and Blue Superman killing any interest I had, and that was the last time I bought new Superman Comics until I sampled and passed on the new52 stuff. Not even someone like Busiek, whose work I generally like a lot, could bring me back to the fold after the biter taste of Superman #75 ad the ensuing event-orama storytelling the Superman office peddled after that until their house of cards crashed in on them. And DC wasn't the first to market comics, but the elements that plague modern comics marketing (variant covers, reboots, renumbering, double-shipping, etc.) and brought the industry crashing down all started with them and were brought to bear in the industry by DC. The quality of the story, good or bad, does little to absolve them or add blame to them for the damage they did to the long-term viability of the market. If you destroy your customer base, you have no one to sell stories to whether they are good or bad. DC started the fires, watched others build it up to more intense levels, then poured gasoline on the fires to try to catch up when they fell behind and didn't understand that all they were doing is destroying that which they were trying to build, again and again, and Didio and company still haven't learned those lessons. Giordano's influence kept a lot of the excesses in check, and Khan backed him usually, but once he was gone, those excesses began to run unchecked and the house of cards they built came crashing down. A few good stories here and there doesn't mean those destructive patterns of behavior were acceptable. Nor does the fact "everyone else" was doing it and they were desperate. They put themselves in the situation by starting the practices they weren't good enough to capitalize on causing themselves to fall further behind and grow more desperate. They dug their own grave, and even if some of the stuff looked/read good while they did it-they were still digging the grave. -M If I understand you correctly, your argument can be boiled down to two points: 1. You thought Superman #75 was terrible. 2. You feel that DC is completely and totally responsible for the gimmicks that reigned the early 1990s and continue into today, no matter the fact that Marvel churned such promotions out with greater frequency in the 1990s and financially benefited more from them. These are opinions that can't be refuted by facts. Therefore, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 21:37:33 GMT -5
We'll have to disagree on the quality of Superman #75, I thought it was schmaltzy, ham-fisted and poorly executed and a bad story that relied on a plot puppet to achieve the writer's goals rather than a compelling conflict built on the character's identity or history. Doomsday is one of the least interesting MacGuffins I have ever had the displeasure of reading in a comic book. As someone who had been reading Superman since the Byrne reboot, this was the book that got me to drop Superman monthly books for a long long time because I thought it was terrible. I skipped most of the Funeral for a Friend stuff and the Reign of the Supermen that followed, and was only starting to sample Supes again when they did Red and Blue Superman killing any interest I had, and that was the last time I bought new Superman Comics until I sampled and passed on the new52 stuff. Not even someone like Busiek, whose work I generally like a lot, could bring me back to the fold after the biter taste of Superman #75 ad the ensuing event-orama storytelling the Superman office peddled after that until their house of cards crashed in on them. And DC wasn't the first to market comics, but the elements that plague modern comics marketing (variant covers, reboots, renumbering, double-shipping, etc.) and brought the industry crashing down all started with them and were brought to bear in the industry by DC. The quality of the story, good or bad, does little to absolve them or add blame to them for the damage they did to the long-term viability of the market. If you destroy your customer base, you have no one to sell stories to whether they are good or bad. DC started the fires, watched others build it up to more intense levels, then poured gasoline on the fires to try to catch up when they fell behind and didn't understand that all they were doing is destroying that which they were trying to build, again and again, and Didio and company still haven't learned those lessons. Giordano's influence kept a lot of the excesses in check, and Khan backed him usually, but once he was gone, those excesses began to run unchecked and the house of cards they built came crashing down. A few good stories here and there doesn't mean those destructive patterns of behavior were acceptable. Nor does the fact "everyone else" was doing it and they were desperate. They put themselves in the situation by starting the practices they weren't good enough to capitalize on causing themselves to fall further behind and grow more desperate. They dug their own grave, and even if some of the stuff looked/read good while they did it-they were still digging the grave. -M If I understand you correctly, your argument can be boiled down to two points: 1. You thought Superman #75 was terrible. 2. You feel that DC is completely and totally responsible for the gimmicks that reigned the early 1990s and continue into today, no matter the fact that Marvel churned such promotions out with greater frequency in the 1990s and financially benefited more from them. These are opinions that can't be refuted by facts. Therefore, we'll have to agree to disagree. Oppenheimer may not responsible for how others use the a-bomb, but he invented the a-bomb, putting it out there to be used, so it's use by anyone goes back to him. The techniques DC introduced (multiple covers, double shipping, reboots, event driven storytelling across multiple titles, etc.) go back to them, no matter how others used them. If they didn't introduce them, others don't have them to use or misuse. The fact they misused them as much as everyone else only adds to that. And whether Superman 75 was great or terrible is irrelevant to the damage done to the industry as a whole by the techniques innovated by DC. It could have been the best comic story ever published bar none, and it still wouldn't make up for the damage done by the way it was handled. Just because you like something doesn't excuse the damage it does. Just because you hate something doesn't make it at fault. How I feel about 75 as a story is irrelevant to the damage DC's techniques (used by them and others) did to the industry. I am not turning a blind eye to the consequences and justifying the way they did things because I liked the story. I am looking at the industry as a whole, what caused the problems leading to the collapse, and trying to identify where those techniques were brought into the fray, and that lies on DC's doorstep. I just don't see any good done for the industry as a whole by the events surrounding Superman #75, and nothing positive coming out of it. They sold lots of copies of a book then started bleeding customers and soon outlets afterwards. Others contributed to it, but the biggest single event that brought people into that mess, raised the stakes, and made it as disastrous as it was in the long term was the Death of Superman hoopla. And DC's marketing was targeting "civilians" outside the hardcore audience trying to up those stakes so their actions were deliberate and intentional. But I guess we'll agree to disagree. -M
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