shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jul 1, 2022 6:52:27 GMT -5
More proof that after COIE DC didn’t have one person guiding the new universe. It's said and shown plenty of times in post-Byrne Superman stories that he is the defacto leader of the DC heroes, but there was no clear leader for those first two years. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 1, 2022 7:00:58 GMT -5
More proof that after COIE DC didn’t have one person guiding the new universe. It's said and shown plenty of times in post-Byrne Superman stories that he is the defacto leader of the DC heroes, but there was no clear leader for those first two years. Wasn't Batman already leader of the new JL and former leader of the Outsiders? Didn't it make sense to ask him to lead the attack or at least plan the strategy? Or maybe it happens in a panel and he politely refuses? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 1, 2022 9:20:00 GMT -5
The trouble with Batman is that everyone hates him.
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Post by zaku on Jul 1, 2022 10:38:33 GMT -5
The trouble with Batman is that everyone hates him.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2022 11:08:57 GMT -5
The trouble with Batman is that everyone hates him. He’s my second favourite superhero.  |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 1, 2022 12:58:39 GMT -5
One of the problems with Byrne's set-up is that most people aren't supposed to know that Luthor is a bad guy. Given the fact that Luthor should therefore be his primary opponent, Superman can't help but look pretty ineffectual, at least to the readers, if he's made so little headway against his Number One Foe that few people even know that they're enemies. As his number two opponent, Brainiac probably isn't known to the world at large except perhaps as a cheap carnival barker who Superman might have arrested once. So at this point in time, Superman's top foe is who? Mxyzptlk? Prankster? Toyman? Hardly the thing a reputation as a Superhero's Superhero is born from.
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Post by badwolf on Jul 1, 2022 13:23:40 GMT -5
One of the problems with Byrne's set-up is that most people aren't supposed to know that Luthor is a bad guy. Given the fact that Luthor should therefore be his primary opponent, Superman can't help but look pretty ineffectual, at least to the readers, if he's made so little headway against his Number One Foe that few people even know that they're enemies. As his number two opponent, Brainiac probably isn't known to the world at large except perhaps as a cheap carnival barker who Superman might have arrested once. So at this point in time, Superman's top foe is who? Mxyzptlk? Prankster? Toyman? Hardly the thing a reputation as a Superhero's Superhero is born from. I didn't think he looked ineffectual at all. He foiled every plan Luthor threw at him, and made Luthor look very foolish each time. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 1, 2022 13:58:02 GMT -5
One of the problems with Byrne's set-up is that most people aren't supposed to know that Luthor is a bad guy. Given the fact that Luthor should therefore be his primary opponent, Superman can't help but look pretty ineffectual, at least to the readers, if he's made so little headway against his Number One Foe that few people even know that they're enemies. As his number two opponent, Brainiac probably isn't known to the world at large except perhaps as a cheap carnival barker who Superman might have arrested once. So at this point in time, Superman's top foe is who? Mxyzptlk? Prankster? Toyman? Hardly the thing a reputation as a Superhero's Superhero is born from. I didn't think he looked ineffectual at all. He foiled every plan Luthor threw at him, and made Luthor look very foolish each time. But did the general public know this? I thought most confrontations were a variation on 'Luthor attacks Superman with LexCorp tech/Superman defeats Luthor's plan/Luthor 'reveals' that said 'tech', 'henchman', 'whatever', had been fired/reported stolen/whatever/story ends with Luthor in the clear'. |
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Post by badwolf on Jul 1, 2022 16:23:05 GMT -5
I didn't think he looked ineffectual at all. He foiled every plan Luthor threw at him, and made Luthor look very foolish each time. But did the general public know this? I thought most confrontations were a variation on 'Luthor attacks Superman with LexCorp tech/Superman defeats Luthor's plan/Luthor 'reveals' that said 'tech', 'henchman', 'whatever', had been fired/reported stolen/whatever/story ends with Luthor in the clear'. But as you said the general public don't know what a villain he is. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 1, 2022 16:30:39 GMT -5
But did the general public know this? I thought most confrontations were a variation on 'Luthor attacks Superman with LexCorp tech/Superman defeats Luthor's plan/Luthor 'reveals' that said 'tech', 'henchman', 'whatever', had been fired/reported stolen/whatever/story ends with Luthor in the clear'. But as you said the general public don't know what a villain he is. That was my point - would Superman have been looked upon by the general public/superhero community as the type of guy who could outsmart/out plan his enemies and therefore qualified to lead a team of heroes against Brainiac or did they see him as a super powered guy who stopped crimes/natural disasters already in progress who you wouldn't really think of as a leader of men? |
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Post by zaku on Jul 1, 2022 16:36:06 GMT -5
Uh, I don't believe that you need a villain to be a hero. Do people think that firefighters aren't heroes because they don't fight bad guys armed with flamethrowers?
I'm reasonably sure that after the first few times Superman saved the Earth from some asteroid, people began to see him in a very heroic light.
It's not Dragonball. American superheroes are heroes because, well, they actually save people.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 1, 2022 16:48:53 GMT -5
Uh, I don't believe that you need a villain to be a hero. Do people think that firefighters aren't heroes because they don't fight bad guys armed with flamethrowers? I'm reasonably sure that after the first few times Superman saved the Earth from some asteroid, people began to see him in a very heroic light. It's not Dragonball. American superheroes are heroes because, well, they actually save people. The point is, would he be regarded as a more capable leader than, say, Green Lantern, for instance? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2022 16:50:44 GMT -5
It’s a most imperfect analogy (I am the kind of imperfect analogies!), but I think of The Hood in Thunderbirds. To the general public, I doubt he is known. He moves in the shadows. He’s not even a villain in the truest sense of the word, early on I’m not sure International Rescue even knew he existed, if they stopped him it seemed to be more by luck than design (they knew someone had photographed their craft in the pilot episode, but it was Parker and Lady Penelope that pursued the Hood on a motorway).
I can’t actually recall any of the Tracy brothers coming face to face with him in the series (I know he buried Brains in the desert in one episode). I think Scott Tracy came across a disguised Hood in one of the feature films.
But still a great villain. And his secretive nature took nothing away from the ‘battles’ he had with International Rescue.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jul 1, 2022 19:43:20 GMT -5
It's said and shown plenty of times in post-Byrne Superman stories that he is the defacto leader of the DC heroes, but there was no clear leader for those first two years. Wasn't Batman already leader of the new JL and former leader of the Outsiders? Didn't it make sense to ask him to lead the attack or at least plan the strategy? Or maybe it happens in a panel and he politely refuses? Yes, plus he and Superman are on good terms ever since Dark Night Over Metropolis. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 2, 2022 2:46:34 GMT -5
Wasn't Batman already leader of the new JL and former leader of the Outsiders? Didn't it make sense to ask him to lead the attack or at least plan the strategy? Or maybe it happens in a panel and he politely refuses? Yes, plus he and Superman are on good terms ever since Dark Night Over Metropolis. I don't remember, it was still the "BWAWAWAWAWA" JLA era at the time? |
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