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Post by codystarbuck on May 2, 2021 15:19:22 GMT -5
Not as big a figure in the US; but, as for the pricing, that's probably down to a couple of things: scarcity and COVID stupidity. His early work was as an assistant to Bill Sienkiewicz, when he was working with Alan Moore, on Big Numbers. This was a major deal, at first, as it was the pairing of two powerhouses and they would own their material. It was published through Moore's Mad Love company; but, it was bankrolled via Kevin Eastman's Tundra Publishing. Eastman was stupid rich (as in rich enough to buy stupid things, like Batmobiles), from the Turtles cartoons and toys, after becoming "well off" just from the comics. he and partner Peter Laird both wanted to use their money to further the artform and help out other creators. Laird used his money to found the Xeric Foundation, which handed out grants to creators to publish their own work, as they had been able to do, thanks to a tax refund and some family investment. Eastman started Tundra as a way to finance dream projects for his friends and other fellow creators. Laird's money was the more wisely spent, as it gave the seed money to get a project going and let the creator focus on the story and art, but didn't give them a blank check. Eastman pretty much handed out blank checks and a lot of people cashed them, without putting out the work they were supposed to produce. some did, like James O'Barr, who finished the Crow, which he had started through Caliber. Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell started From Hell via that, and Steve Bissette was doing his Taboo anthology. Sienkiewicz and Moore produced 2 issues, then there were delays and a complete falling out. Columbia was tapped to be sole artist to continue, but never completed the work and is alleged to have destroyed it., after a falling out. Tundra bled money, but produced some great works, while it existed: From Hell, Brat Pack, The Crow, Taboo, Mr Monster, and Understanding Comics. The work you are citing was originally done in the British anthology Deadline, which was an alternative publication, best known for showcasing Jamie Hewlett's Tank Girl. Columbia's material got reprinted by Fantagraphics, a bit later. Tundra had small print runs, of mostly alternative material, at a time when speculators were throwing money at Image, Valiant, Malibu and Dark Horse, for new titles, regardless of how bad they were. DC and Marvel churned out junk to dominate comic shops and squeeze out small publishers. So, Tundra didn't sell in huge numbers, especially relative to how much went into production and in funding the project, in the first place. They lost something like $14 Million, in the 3 years of their existence. All of those Tundra projects go for high prices on the collector market, as there aren't many copies of most of them out there. I don't think Deadline had great distribution over here; so, those would also be scarce and Fantagraphics rarely had huge print runs, so there are their reprints for probably high prices. So, you aren't going to find many copies of works carrying his art out there, since they don't feature adolescent male power fantasies and horror. Add to that, now people have COVID stimulus money; and, instead of using it for things that are needed, you have a lot of people who are blowing it on stupid stuff, like collectibles, as inflated prices. They are home, bored, flush with cash, nostalgic, depressed and/or anxious and are buying things from their past as comfort. So, collectible comics, like rare indie and alternative comics, have shot up in value, as have readily plentiful superhero comics. (as well as other collectibles, like sports cards, coins, stamps, etc). So, you have a perfect storm of rare material, under the best of circumstances, and consumer frenzy, brought on by the pandemic. I can't really tell you much more about the artist, as I never really followed his work. He was never as big a name is Peter Bagge, Dan Clowes, Chris Ware, Seth, Jim Woodring, Los Bros Hernandez, Roberta Gregory or some of the other indie/alternative comics folks. Well put, and for my part guilty as charged. That said, not everyone feels that way, or says they feel that way; case in point, Chuck Rozanski, who insists we're in the early stages of a new era in comics collecting. I don't know if he wants to justify his insane prices, but he even complains about being slow raising them! I don't blame anyone for wanting a collectible because of nostalgia; the earliest comics I "collected," in college, were out of nostalgia. However, I got those comics for an average of 50 cents. My family was never flush with money and my spending money in my childhood was either birthday/Christmas money or money I earned via odd jobs (mowing lawns, painting houses, working for farmers, working as a dishwasher in a restaurant). However, when I was an adult and collecting, I did use credit far too often, especially after I left the Navy and racked up a lot of debt through that. I almost never paid high prices; but I did spend more than I intended, on volume, at times. From at least the Baby Boom generation onward, we were bombarded with marketing messages that equate buying products with comfort and security. "Retail therapy" is a major issue in modern life, if it is unmanageable. At least stimulus money is "found money," rather than debt financing, like I did at times. Kids, always pay "cash" for your collectibles and not debt; you end up paying a hell of a lot more with the debt. I don't see this kind of buying sustaining itself, as it has all of the hallmarks of the bubble cycles of the Black & White Boom & Bust and the Speculator Boom & Bust. Given that comic sales steadily declined across the 90s and 00s, the nostalgia for them is likely to be proportionally lower in the younger generations. I don't see a massive wave of 90s nostalgia driving back issue prices like Boomer s and Gen-X collectors did previously, even with the movies and tv shows. It's a seller's market; but, that never lasts.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 3, 2021 2:22:37 GMT -5
Well put, and for my part guilty as charged. That said, not everyone feels that way, or says they feel that way; case in point, Chuck Rozanski, who insists we're in the early stages of a new era in comics collecting. I don't know if he wants to justify his insane prices, but he even complains about being slow raising them! I don't blame anyone for wanting a collectible because of nostalgia; the earliest comics I "collected," in college, were out of nostalgia. However, I got those comics for an average of 50 cents. My family was never flush with money and my spending money in my childhood was either birthday/Christmas money or money I earned via odd jobs (mowing lawns, painting houses, working for farmers, working as a dishwasher in a restaurant). However, when I was an adult and collecting, I did use credit far too often, especially after I left the Navy and racked up a lot of debt through that. I almost never paid high prices; but I did spend more than I intended, on volume, at times. From at least the Baby Boom generation onward, we were bombarded with marketing messages that equate buying products with comfort and security. "Retail therapy" is a major issue in modern life, if it is unmanageable. At least stimulus money is "found money," rather than debt financing, like I did at times. Kids, always pay "cash" for your collectibles and not debt; you end up paying a hell of a lot more with the debt. I don't see this kind of buying sustaining itself, as it has all of the hallmarks of the bubble cycles of the Black & White Boom & Bust and the Speculator Boom & Bust. Given that comic sales steadily declined across the 90s and 00s, the nostalgia for them is likely to be proportionally lower in the younger generations. I don't see a massive wave of 90s nostalgia driving back issue prices like Boomer s and Gen-X collectors did previously, even with the movies and tv shows. It's a seller's market; but, that never lasts. Chuck's line of argument against that notion is twofold. On the one hand, the number of comics in circulation in recent years is very low, add to that, comic keep disappearing all the time, so even those from a time when print volume was much higher, will dwindle over time. Again, I don't know how much truth there is in this.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 3, 2021 11:26:28 GMT -5
I don't blame anyone for wanting a collectible because of nostalgia; the earliest comics I "collected," in college, were out of nostalgia. However, I got those comics for an average of 50 cents. My family was never flush with money and my spending money in my childhood was either birthday/Christmas money or money I earned via odd jobs (mowing lawns, painting houses, working for farmers, working as a dishwasher in a restaurant). However, when I was an adult and collecting, I did use credit far too often, especially after I left the Navy and racked up a lot of debt through that. I almost never paid high prices; but I did spend more than I intended, on volume, at times. From at least the Baby Boom generation onward, we were bombarded with marketing messages that equate buying products with comfort and security. "Retail therapy" is a major issue in modern life, if it is unmanageable. At least stimulus money is "found money," rather than debt financing, like I did at times. Kids, always pay "cash" for your collectibles and not debt; you end up paying a hell of a lot more with the debt. I don't see this kind of buying sustaining itself, as it has all of the hallmarks of the bubble cycles of the Black & White Boom & Bust and the Speculator Boom & Bust. Given that comic sales steadily declined across the 90s and 00s, the nostalgia for them is likely to be proportionally lower in the younger generations. I don't see a massive wave of 90s nostalgia driving back issue prices like Boomer s and Gen-X collectors did previously, even with the movies and tv shows. It's a seller's market; but, that never lasts. Chuck's line of argument against that notion is twofold. On the one hand, the number of comics in circulation in recent years is very low, add to that, comic keep disappearing all the time, so even those from a time when print volume was much higher, will dwindle over time. Again, I don't know how much truth there is in this. That's only a supply-side argument and markets are demand-driven. It doesn't matter if the supply is large or small, if the demand is low. It matters in the short term, during a bubble; but, I don't think supplies are as low as he claims. A lot of this material was produced at inflated numbers, during the speculator boom, with people buying multiples and comic shops sitting on whole cases of titles. There are far more outlets for disposing of old comics for token money, vs avenues available to Boomers and Gen-X; so, old material is in greater circulation. Nope, never back a supply-side bet.
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Post by profh0011 on May 3, 2021 11:32:01 GMT -5
It's "Hop-Frog," right? I hope you're going to show us the pages you drew. Okay, since you asked...!
I'm not sure who drew the castle, as it was included as an illustration with a text story. But it seemed a perfect fit. The face hovering in the sky, I based on someone I knew. (I never told him, though.) A version of "Masque of the Red Death" from the same publisher had a face in the sky on the splash page.
Page 2, I swiped a couple of poses from the Reed Crandall version of the same story. No kidding!
This is a case of really getting carried awaywith a blog project!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 4, 2021 0:21:06 GMT -5
Chuck's line of argument against that notion is twofold. On the one hand, the number of comics in circulation in recent years is very low, add to that, comic keep disappearing all the time, so even those from a time when print volume was much higher, will dwindle over time. Again, I don't know how much truth there is in this. That's only a supply-side argument and markets are demand-driven. It doesn't matter if the supply is large or small, if the demand is low. It matters in the short term, during a bubble; but, I don't think supplies are as low as he claims. A lot of this material was produced at inflated numbers, during the speculator boom, with people buying multiples and comic shops sitting on whole cases of titles. There are far more outlets for disposing of old comics for token money, vs avenues available to Boomers and Gen-X; so, old material is in greater circulation. Nope, never back a supply-side bet. For the US market... maybe it will be like that in the long term. But for the European collector there's no long term, the big reservoir of comics was the UK, and this one is closing fast. I never had a problem up until this week, and now all of a sudden, I have customs related delays or worse. There's a clock here.
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Post by sparrow421 on May 5, 2021 10:43:17 GMT -5
Not as big a figure in the US; but, as for the pricing, that's probably down to a couple of things: scarcity and COVID stupidity. His early work was as an assistant to Bill Sienkiewicz, when he was working with Alan Moore, on Big Numbers. This was a major deal, at first, as it was the pairing of two powerhouses and they would own their material. It was published through Moore's Mad Love company; but, it was bankrolled via Kevin Eastman's Tundra Publishing. Eastman was stupid rich (as in rich enough to buy stupid things, like Batmobiles), from the Turtles cartoons and toys, after becoming "well off" just from the comics. he and partner Peter Laird both wanted to use their money to further the artform and help out other creators. Laird used his money to found the Xeric Foundation, which handed out grants to creators to publish their own work, as they had been able to do, thanks to a tax refund and some family investment. Eastman started Tundra as a way to finance dream projects for his friends and other fellow creators. Laird's money was the more wisely spent, as it gave the seed money to get a project going and let the creator focus on the story and art, but didn't give them a blank check. Eastman pretty much handed out blank checks and a lot of people cashed them, without putting out the work they were supposed to produce. some did, like James O'Barr, who finished the Crow, which he had started through Caliber. Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell started From Hell via that, and Steve Bissette was doing his Taboo anthology. Sienkiewicz and Moore produced 2 issues, then there were delays and a complete falling out. Columbia was tapped to be sole artist to continue, but never completed the work and is alleged to have destroyed it., after a falling out. Tundra bled money, but produced some great works, while it existed: From Hell, Brat Pack, The Crow, Taboo, Mr Monster, and Understanding Comics. The work you are citing was originally done in the British anthology Deadline, which was an alternative publication, best known for showcasing Jamie Hewlett's Tank Girl. Columbia's material got reprinted by Fantagraphics, a bit later. Tundra had small print runs, of mostly alternative material, at a time when speculators were throwing money at Image, Valiant, Malibu and Dark Horse, for new titles, regardless of how bad they were. DC and Marvel churned out junk to dominate comic shops and squeeze out small publishers. So, Tundra didn't sell in huge numbers, especially relative to how much went into production and in funding the project, in the first place. They lost something like $14 Million, in the 3 years of their existence. All of those Tundra projects go for high prices on the collector market, as there aren't many copies of most of them out there. I don't think Deadline had great distribution over here; so, those would also be scarce and Fantagraphics rarely had huge print runs, so there are their reprints for probably high prices. So, you aren't going to find many copies of works carrying his art out there, since they don't feature adolescent male power fantasies and horror. Add to that, now people have COVID stimulus money; and, instead of using it for things that are needed, you have a lot of people who are blowing it on stupid stuff, like collectibles, as inflated prices. They are home, bored, flush with cash, nostalgic, depressed and/or anxious and are buying things from their past as comfort. So, collectible comics, like rare indie and alternative comics, have shot up in value, as have readily plentiful superhero comics. (as well as other collectibles, like sports cards, coins, stamps, etc). So, you have a perfect storm of rare material, under the best of circumstances, and consumer frenzy, brought on by the pandemic. I can't really tell you much more about the artist, as I never really followed his work. He was never as big a name is Peter Bagge, Dan Clowes, Chris Ware, Seth, Jim Woodring, Los Bros Hernandez, Roberta Gregory or some of the other indie/alternative comics folks. Thank you codystarbuck for the answer and all that information about the Al Columbia and the comic questions. Well I don't really understand much of comics but I do like to read some and the arts in general, from a lot of books weather they are DC, Marvel or any others but also I was looking to have something that I could invest later maybe.( like this rare weird book) I thought would be a unique book in terms or dark drawings not for the storyline though and with prices like that it may had to be something special but like you say, due to COVID situation people who sell it out would make it higher price to take advantage of the ones who are bored to death or try to invest. Is true for that maybe I should rethink about it. But I still like to buy collectables and I respect very much the artists works. Maybe I will try to get it cheaper later somehow. Anyway have a nice day.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 5, 2021 16:11:36 GMT -5
So I've been looking to buy the books on eBay and they are quite expensive.. ( from 84$ ,99$ to 112$ and 200$) Even in the current climate, there's a big difference between what the seller wants and what the buyer offers. Case in point:
This copy was in an auction that just finished without anyone bidding $25, and yet the seller still places it for the same "Buy it now" price of $60.
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Post by sparrow421 on May 7, 2021 11:07:06 GMT -5
Thanks for this link Ozymandias, I see what you mean. I guess is definitely how you said, is about what the seller wants for it and what the buyer offers then. In my opinion looks like a unique book, but not worth that kind of money either.
But still I have one question, although the artist Al Columbia doesn't really seem to look like some important artist in terms of fame, but still I can't stop look at the drawings, they are really bizarre and interesting at the same time. Making me curious to look further.
Even though the comic isn't that kind of money worth, then would that mean that for a investment has no valor?
Also there are not many copies wouldn't that make it rare?
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Post by chaykinstevens on May 7, 2021 12:36:48 GMT -5
I think the Overstreet price guide classifies a comic as scarce if 20-100 copies exist, rare if 10-20 copies exist, and very rare if 1-10 copies exist. I don't know how many copies of the Biologic Show were printed, but I'd guess it would have run to something with four figures, most of which would still exist in decent condition.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 7, 2021 14:04:32 GMT -5
AFAIK, only limited editions are below four figures, but 1,000 copies is not the same as 9,999 and for this particular item, I'd say we're closer to 1,000. Of those, not many in circulation will be in VFN or higher grade. The one in the link is a good example of the condition most will be. Many won't even reach eBay because they owner won't be bothered, and the copies you can actually buy are better than this one, but far more expensive.
For a hard to get item, if you can get it for $25 after 25 years, I'd say go for it. Most of the eye appeal this copy has lost, can be recovered via pressing.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,268
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Post by shaxper on May 19, 2021 14:20:17 GMT -5
Just happened to notice today that the numbering on my X-Men #123 is not straight. I'd always assumed a printing machine provided the numbering, but this would suggest it was done by hand. Did letterers provide the corner box info, or did the final digit just slip on the printer?
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,901
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Post by Crimebuster on May 19, 2021 14:56:23 GMT -5
Usually they weren't drawn by hand, but someone in production would paste the numbers on. Here it looks like they put it on crooked, or it slipped from not enough glue.
On rare occasions there has been hand lettered numbering - Two-Gun Kid #60 is an example.
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Post by MDG on May 20, 2021 11:49:41 GMT -5
Does anyone know of/have a contact for someone--dealer or fan--who knows a lot about DC/NPP history and collectibles?
A former co-worker zoomed with me last night to ask about a couple of items her husband has (his father worked for DC from the 40s into the 70s). One is a mass produced item, but the other is an extremely rare promo piece from the 50s-60s; I've only found two examples on the internet. They have a dozen of them.
I want to get an idea of value before (probably) linking them up w/ one of the auction houses.
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Post by Rob Allen on May 20, 2021 12:58:10 GMT -5
Does anyone know of/have a contact for someone--dealer or fan--who knows a lot about DC/NPP history and collectibles? A former co-worker zoomed with me last night to ask about a couple of items her husband has (his father worked for DC from the 40s into the 70s). One is a mass produced item, but the other is an extremely rare promo piece from the 50s-60s; I've only found two examples on the internet. They have a dozen of them. I want to get an idea of value before (probably) linking them up w/ one of the auction houses. Off the top of my head, I'd get in touch with Bob Beerbohm, and/or Mike from Mike's Amazing World. Let me know if you need contact info for either.
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Post by MDG on May 20, 2021 14:10:15 GMT -5
Does anyone know of/have a contact for someone--dealer or fan--who knows a lot about DC/NPP history and collectibles? A former co-worker zoomed with me last night to ask about a couple of items her husband has (his father worked for DC from the 40s into the 70s). One is a mass produced item, but the other is an extremely rare promo piece from the 50s-60s; I've only found two examples on the internet. They have a dozen of them. I want to get an idea of value before (probably) linking them up w/ one of the auction houses. Off the top of my head, I'd get in touch with Bob Beerbohm, and/or Mike from Mike's Amazing World. Let me know if you need contact info for either. I'm friends w/ Bob on FB, but can you PM me his email? thanks
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