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Post by zaku on Nov 29, 2023 13:06:25 GMT -5
Maybe it deserved its own thread, but maybe this is the best place to ask this question. I recently finished reading issue #7 of Brave and the Bold where there was a very funny story with Wild Dog. The story is bordering on parody and the character is not treated seriously. And he has been treated similarly in his (sparse) previous appearances. But even though many years have passed, I remember his very first stories well, very serious in tone. Then evidently the character hasn't gone anywhere and is only used in this type of story. So my question is the following. In your opinion, why has DC never managed to have a successful vigilante character a là Punisher? Surely not for lack of trying. Wild Dog. Vigilant. PeaceMaker. The new version of Crimson Avenger. But no one ever seems to really stick. What distinguishes a Punisher from all these characters? what managed to make him survive even after truly mediocre periods (Before Garth Ennis his stories were truly pathetic)? What's the secret of a successful vigilante character?
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 29, 2023 16:49:13 GMT -5
What distinguishes a Punisher from all these characters? Who manages to make him survive even after truly mediocre periods ( Before Garth Ennis his stories were truly pathetic)? What's the secret of a successful vigilante character? I always felt that the early Punisher appearances in Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man (and Frank Miller's Daredevil to a point) between the early 70s and mid-80s were great fun. Though he's not a huge favourite of mine as a character, I felt that the Punisher worked well in the Spidey books because the dynamic and tension between Peter Parker and Frank Castle -- who both wanted to stop crime, but had very different methods -- made for some engaging and, at times, thought-provoking comics. Once the Punisher became a huge breakout star and got "Rambo-fied" in the late 80s and 90s, he was much, much less interesting. I have very little interest in this action-hero "Rambo" version of the character or the later unrelentingly bleak, grim and gritty version from the MAX books and beyond (it's just not my cup of tea). But as an interesting foil for Spider-Man in the Bronze Age, I thought he was a good character and that those comics were basically pretty good. I certainly would not describe them as "pathetic".
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Post by zaku on Nov 29, 2023 17:48:13 GMT -5
But as an interesting foil for Spider-Man in the Bronze Age, I thought he was a good character and that those comics were basically pretty good. I certainly would not describe them as "pathetic". Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the period between when he killed Nick Fury and the "reboot" before Ennis. There have been some truly heinous stories in between. I mean
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Post by tartanphantom on Nov 29, 2023 18:18:14 GMT -5
Maybe it deserved its own thread, but maybe this is the best place to ask this question. I recently finished reading issue #7 of Brave and the Bold where there was a very funny story with Wild Dog. The story is bordering on parody and the character is not treated seriously. And he has been treated similarly in his (sparse) previous appearances. But even though many years have passed, I remember his very first stories well, very serious in tone. Then evidently the character hasn't gone anywhere and is only used in this type of story. So my question is the following. In your opinion, why has DC never managed to have a successful vigilante character a là Punisher? Surely not for lack of trying. Wild Dog. Vigilant. PeaceMaker. The new version of Crimson Avenger. But no one ever seems to really stick.What distinguishes a Punisher from all these characters? what managed to make him survive even after truly mediocre periods (Before Garth Ennis his stories were truly pathetic)? What's the secret of a successful vigilante character?
If I recall correctly, most of the characters mentioned did not benefit from as much continued cross-title exposure as the Punisher did. I doubt that's the only reason but I'm sure it's a factor on their lack of popularity. Outside of a few exceptions here and there (Vigilante appearing in Teen Titans, Wild Dog had a story run in Action Comics Weekly) DC really didn't do much to promote those characters in other areas of their comics universe. Punisher experienced several cross-title appearances in Daredevil, Spider-Man and related titles, among a number of other appearances. Of course, it could be argued that these additional appearances actuall contributed to his popularity, rather than being a result of it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 29, 2023 22:27:23 GMT -5
DC really didn't need a Punisher, when they had a Batman. Everyone else got grittied up; but, Marvel kind of lacked that same level of character, for a long time. Miller turned Daredevil into that; but not in the same way. He was less a figure of terror, than he was a nuisance that plagued the Kingpin.
DC reacted more in some of their superhero characters, making them grimmer and grittier, following on the success of Dark Knight and Watchmen and the Punisher and Wolverine had also benefitted from that same tonality. Mike Grell was courted back to DC and turned Green Arrow from a gimmick archer into an urban hunter, with street crime as his prey. The Question was more of a cult title, but he was also an urban vigilante, using martial arts. Suicide Squad featured super criminals used as expendable weapons on secret battlefronts. Lots of superheroes took on darker tones and costuming. DC's strength wasn't in copying The punisher, who was a copy of Mack Bolan; but, in making their already urban heroes into darker versions, or emphasizing that darkness, like with Batman.
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Post by Rags on Nov 29, 2023 23:20:08 GMT -5
DC really didn't need a Punisher, when they had a Batman. Especially Jean-Paul Valley (Azrael) as Batman. My hero.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 30, 2023 0:03:03 GMT -5
DC really didn't need a Punisher, when they had a Batman. Especially Jean-Paul Valley (Azrael) as Batman. My hero. Who I suspect is timid compared to modern Batman. But I much preferred Jean-Paul as Azrael than a Batman fill-in. But still an interesting twist in his training surfacing again and perpetually loosing control to the point he almost was Azrael again. Sword of Azrael was great.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 30, 2023 0:05:27 GMT -5
You didn’t buy that Punisher for the story. You bought it for Wrighton’s art. 👍
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Post by Ozymandias on Nov 30, 2023 1:29:06 GMT -5
why has DC never managed to have a successful vigilante character a là Punisher? Surely not for lack of trying. Wild Dog. Vigilant. PeaceMaker. The new version of Crimson Avenger. But no one ever seems to really stick. What distinguishes a Punisher from all these characters? what managed to make him survive even after truly mediocre periods (Before Garth Ennis his stories were truly pathetic)? What's the secret of a successful vigilante character? He came first. Just turned 50 a month ago.
Charlton's Peacemaker was little more than a costumed, flying version of James Bond. Nothing to do with the street level character The Punisher became.
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Post by zaku on Nov 30, 2023 2:25:40 GMT -5
why has DC never managed to have a successful vigilante character a là Punisher? Surely not for lack of trying. Wild Dog. Vigilant. PeaceMaker. The new version of Crimson Avenger. But no one ever seems to really stick. What distinguishes a Punisher from all these characters? what managed to make him survive even after truly mediocre periods (Before Garth Ennis his stories were truly pathetic)? What's the secret of a successful vigilante character? He came first. Just turned 50 a month ago.
Charlton's Peacemaker was little more than a costumed, flying version of James Bond. Nothing to do with the street level character The Punisher became.
I mean the most recent versions of him 🙂
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Post by commond on Nov 30, 2023 9:04:07 GMT -5
Isn't Red Hood similar to The Punisher?
In the late 80s and 90s, DC tried to do Punisher with guys like Deadshot and Deathstroke, but Vigilante was the best effort until Ennis' Hitman.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 30, 2023 9:53:33 GMT -5
Isn't Red Hood similar to The Punisher? In the late 80s and 90s, DC tried to do Punisher with guys like Deadshot and Deathstroke, but Vigilante was the best effort until Ennis' Hitman. Hitman definitely is NOT an attempt to do the Punisher, IMO. Perhaps a spoof of him if there's any relation.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 30, 2023 19:32:52 GMT -5
Isn't Red Hood similar to The Punisher? In the late 80s and 90s, DC tried to do Punisher with guys like Deadshot and Deathstroke, but Vigilante was the best effort until Ennis' Hitman. Hitman definitely is NOT an attempt to do the Punisher, IMO. Perhaps a spoof of him if there's any relation. Hitman is more realistic than the rest. A high body count and he never harbors illusions that he's going the right thing.
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Post by Rags on Dec 1, 2023 14:20:30 GMT -5
Has anyone ever seen a Hardcover collection of Ernie / Piranha Club? It's my 2nd favourite newspaper strip (after Archie of course)
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Post by zaku on Dec 2, 2023 5:42:53 GMT -5
DC really didn't need a Punisher, when they had a Batman. Everyone else got grittied up; but, Marvel kind of lacked that same level of character, for a long time. Miller turned Daredevil into that; but not in the same way. He was less a figure of terror, than he was a nuisance that plagued the Kingpin. DC reacted more in some of their superhero characters, making them grimmer and grittier, following on the success of Dark Knight and Watchmen and the Punisher and Wolverine had also benefitted from that same tonality. Mike Grell was courted back to DC and turned Green Arrow from a gimmick archer into an urban hunter, with street crime as his prey. The Question was more of a cult title, but he was also an urban vigilante, using martial arts. Suicide Squad featured super criminals used as expendable weapons on secret battlefronts. Lots of superheroes took on darker tones and costuming. DC's strength wasn't in copying The punisher, who was a copy of Mack Bolan; but, in making their already urban heroes into darker versions, or emphasizing that darkness, like with Batman. I just want to add that even today's Punisher is no longer the Punisher. The "gritty" version of the Max line is (spoiler!!!) dead. A character like him in the Marvel universe is a bit out of place. Lately they had him go hunting for classic super-villains but it seemed a bit of a joke, because we know very well that they can't stay dead, so it all seemed a bit pointless. I think that after decades this character has nothing left to say.
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