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Post by chaykinstevens on Dec 10, 2023 18:31:00 GMT -5
Does the announcement indicate (or does anyone know) why Moench left the title? Was it low sales, Moench's request, an attempt to prevent Byrne from leaving Marvel, etc? Moench said he left "Largely because I didn't think I was doing a good job and I was offered another assignment, something I wanted to do even more than 'FF'. I really loved the FF as a reader, but they didn't work as well for me as a writer. I guess I just couldn't see the FF being done by anyone except Stan and Jack, and that included me." link I think the other assignment Moench took instead was Thor.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 10, 2023 21:39:38 GMT -5
But the Vigilante was a lot more morally tormented by his actions than the Punisher ever was, and the series ended with him committing suicide. And there more than a Vigilante in the comics, right? I'm not exactly sure what you meant to say there; but, if you are asking if there was more than one Vigilante, then yes. There is Greg Saunders, the original singing cowboy hero (on a motorcycle, because he's a modern cowboy, and on a steel horse he rides, just like Bon Jovi). Then, there is Adrian Chase, the former district attorney who worked with the New Teen Titans, saw his family murdered by the mob and became the masked Vigilante, with the goggle mask, and had a 50 issue solo series, after debuting (in costume) in the NTT Annual #2. There were two fill-in Vigilantes in that series: Alan Welles, a former judge who was more violent (forcing Chase to kill him, to stop him) and Dave Winston, a former bailiff, killed by the Peacemaker, causing Chase to take back the mantle. That was all in the 50-issue Vigilante series. Patricia Trayce, a Gotham City PD detective became a female version of the Vigilante, in the Deathstroke series. There was Justin Powell, who became The Vigilante, in a mini-series, by Bruce Jones. There was Dorian Chase, brother of Adrian, then someone called Donald Fairchild, in DC Rebirth. So, any time they need to renew the trademark, there is a new one. Greg Saunders debuted in Action #45 and lasted through issue #198, when Tommy Tomorrow shoved him out. He was with the Law's Legionnaires/Seven Soldiers of Victor for 14 issues of Leading Comics. They were revived in JLA #100-102, after being lost in time and he got some solo action again in Adventure Comics and World's Finest. James Robinson did a three issue period adventure (post-Crisis) where the hero went up against Bugsy Siegel, after the murder of his sidekick, Stuff. It was pretty damn good. Would have been a great continuing series, under Robinson. Saunders was also the subject of a Columbia serial, starring Ralph Byrd, who also played Dick Tracy. The character appeared in Justice League Unlimited, voiced by Nathan Fillion and batman TBATB, voiced by John DiMaggio.
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Post by zaku on Dec 11, 2023 7:06:33 GMT -5
And there more than a Vigilante in the comics, right? I'm not exactly sure what you meant to say there; but, if you are asking if there was more than one Vigilante, then yes. There is Greg Saunders, the original singing cowboy hero (on a motorcycle, because he's a modern cowboy, and on a steel horse he rides, just like Bon Jovi). Then, there is Adrian Chase, the former district attorney who worked with the New Teen Titans, saw his family murdered by the mob and became the masked Vigilante, with the goggle mask, and had a 50 issue solo series, after debuting (in costume) in the NTT Annual #2. There were two fill-in Vigilantes in that series: Alan Welles, a former judge who was more violent (forcing Chase to kill him, to stop him) and Dave Winston, a former bailiff, killed by the Peacemaker, causing Chase to take back the mantle. That was all in the 50-issue Vigilante series. Patricia Trayce, a Gotham City PD detective became a female version of the Vigilante, in the Deathstroke series. There was Justin Powell, who became The Vigilante, in a mini-series, by Bruce Jones. There was Dorian Chase, brother of Adrian, then someone called Donald Fairchild, in DC Rebirth. So, any time they need to renew the trademark, there is a new one. Greg Saunders debuted in Action #45 and lasted through issue #198, when Tommy Tomorrow shoved him out. He was with the Law's Legionnaires/Seven Soldiers of Victor for 14 issues of Leading Comics. They were revived in JLA #100-102, after being lost in time and he got some solo action again in Adventure Comics and World's Finest. James Robinson did a three issue period adventure (post-Crisis) where the hero went up against Bugsy Siegel, after the murder of his sidekick, Stuff. It was pretty damn good. Would have been a great continuing series, under Robinson. Saunders was also the subject of a Columbia serial, starring Ralph Byrd, who also played Dick Tracy. The character appeared in Justice League Unlimited, voiced by Nathan Fillion and batman TBATB, voiced by John DiMaggio. I'm sorry, I realized that I had written something not intelligible, I'm glad you understood what I meant! However I had the first issues of Vigilante (I haven't read the rest of the series) and he wasn't exactly an exact counterpart to the Punisher in DC. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong!!!) 1) He was only interested in criminals who had escaped justice and used lethal means only as a last chance. The Punisher, on the other hand, was ready to kill people who were already in prison. 2) At least at the beginning (then I read that it got worse...) he wasn't as obsessed as Castle and he also had serious doubts after a mission where he almost killed an innocent man 3) he had a vague regeneration superpower..? (It's been a lot of years since I read it!)
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Post by foxley on Dec 11, 2023 8:01:28 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I realized that I had written something not intelligible, I'm glad you understood what I meant! However I remember the first issues of Vigilante (I haven't read the rest of the series) and he wasn't exactly an exact counterpart to the Punisher in DC. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong!!!) 1) He was only interested in criminals who had escaped justice and used lethal means only as a last chance. The Punisher, on the other hand, was ready to kill people who were already in prison. 2) At least at the beginning (then I read that it got worse...) he wasn't as obsessed as Castle and he also had serious doubts after a mission where he almost killed an innocent man 3) he had a vague regeneration superpower..? (It's been a lot of years since I read it!) That's a fair summary. He underwent semi-mystical training that allowed him to speed up his body's natural healing functions.
I don't think Chase was ever intended to be an exact analogue of the Punisher but the comparisons were unavoidable: a vigilante whose family was killed by a mob hit and who took up arms to extract vengeance.
But the differences were what I found fascinating. You are right in that he would only use lethal force as a last resort, usually only if his own life or the lives of bystanders were under threat. If he could find a legal means to punish his targets (such as finding proof of other crimes), he would take it. And he frequently questioned the rightness of his actions, and tried to quit the Vigilante identity several times.He was shocked by the violence of the men who took up the identity after him,and felt compelled to stop them because he felt responsible for inspiring them. Ultimately he could not balance his dual passions for justice and the law, and the dichotomy drove him to kill himself.
I find this a way more compelling character than the Punisher,who exists only to rack up a massive body count, never questions the rightness of his mission, and somehow never hits a civilian despite unloading thousands of rounds from fully automatic weapons in crowded urban environments.
I think many people never bothered to investigate the character and just assumed he was a pale imitation of the Punisher. As a result,those who didn't like the Punisher didn't bother to read it, and those who did like the Punisher either didn't read it because they were already reading the Punisher, or did and quickly abandoned it on learning the Vigilante wasn't a conscienceless mass murderer like their hero and the book didn't have the gun porn they like to geek out over.
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Post by zaku on Dec 11, 2023 8:11:22 GMT -5
I think many people never bothered to investigate the character and just assumed he was a pale imitation of the Punisher. As a result,those who didn't like the Punisher didn't bother to read it, and those who did like the Punisher either didn't read it because they were already reading the Punisher, or did and quickly abandoned it on learning the Vigilante wasn't a conscienceless mass murderer like their hero and the book didn't have the gun porn they like to geek out over. And who imitated whom? The first issue of the first Punisher mini (where the character as we know him today was really defined) came out in December 1985. The first issue of Vigilante is dated November 1983. Upon its release, readers really thought "Oh, a clone of the Punisher!"? Then there would be the interesting question of why the Punisher succeeded (editorially) where Vigilante failed.
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Post by Calidore on Dec 11, 2023 8:40:01 GMT -5
My memory of Vigilante is that it started out under Marv Wolfman as Punisher-lite, and then very soon Paul Kupperberg took over and with editor Mike Gold turned it into a noirish mature-readers urban crime novel. I was riveted when it was coming out, and the whole series was very easy to marathon on a reread. Excellent book.
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Post by commond on Dec 11, 2023 8:42:08 GMT -5
When people talk about the Punisher, I feel like they have a fixed characterization in their mind. If there's one thing I've learned about the Punisher recently is that since everyone and their grandmother wrote a Punisher story in the early 90s, his characterization was anything but fixed. I'm slowly making my way through the Mike Baron run on Punisher, for example, and the characterization of the Punisher is nothing like people are making out.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Dec 11, 2023 8:46:52 GMT -5
And who imitated whom? The first issue of the first Punisher mini (where the character as we know him today was really defined) came out in December 1985. The first issue of Vigilante is dated November 1983. Upon its release, readers really thought "Oh, a clone of the Punisher!"?
(...) I can say for my part that - when I read the Vigilante's first appearance in New Teen Titans Annual #2 (in the summer of 1983) - yes, the first thought that crossed my mind was something like, "Oh, so he's going to be DC's version of the Punisher."
Also, I'd question the view that the Punisher as we know him was only defined in the first mini from 1985. The character started to go in the "cool anti-hero" direction in the very early 1980s (e.g., in Spider-man Annual #15 and then a few subsequent appearances in Miller's first Daredevil run).
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Post by zaku on Dec 11, 2023 9:27:28 GMT -5
Fun fact: In Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #82 the Punisher began shooting litterbugs and jaywalkers (it was retroactively explained that he had been drugged while in prison). In Vigilante #30 the new Vigilante said...
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 11, 2023 10:11:02 GMT -5
Fun fact: In Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #82 the Punisher began shooting litterbugs and jaywalkers (it was retroactively explained that he had been drugged while in prison). In Vigilante #30 the new Vigilante said... And shoplifters.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 11, 2023 11:26:03 GMT -5
I think many people never bothered to investigate the character and just assumed he was a pale imitation of the Punisher. As a result,those who didn't like the Punisher didn't bother to read it, and those who did like the Punisher either didn't read it because they were already reading the Punisher, or did and quickly abandoned it on learning the Vigilante wasn't a conscienceless mass murderer like their hero and the book didn't have the gun porn they like to geek out over. And who imitated whom? The first issue of the first Punisher mini (where the character as we know him today was really defined) came out in December 1985. The first issue of Vigilante is dated November 1983. Upon its release, readers really thought "Oh, a clone of the Punisher!"? Then there would be the interesting question of why the Punisher succeeded (editorially) where Vigilante failed. Well, if you want to go down that route, they both are imitations of pulp and crime vigilantes, like Mack Bolan, from the Executioner paperback series and Paul Kersey, from the Death Wish novel and film series. You can take those back to pulp characters, like The Spider, and then back to the Victorian Era, with gunfighter characters, like Doc Holliday and Billy the Kid, in Dime Novels, or the Penny Dreadfuls of the UK, or characters like Fantomas and The Count of Monte Cristo, in France.
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Post by Rags on Dec 11, 2023 19:14:52 GMT -5
Fun fact: In Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #82 the Punisher began shooting litterbugs and jaywalkers (it was retroactively explained that he had been drugged while in prison). In Vigilante #30 the new Vigilante said...
Well it might have been a slight on the Punisher, but he's still around, whereas Vigilante seems to have missed the bus.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,026
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Post by Confessor on Dec 12, 2023 0:17:27 GMT -5
Was the 1988 Flash Gordon mini-series from DC any good?
My best friend back then bought all 9 parts and reckoned it was excellent, but for whatever reason I never read it myself. It's a series that in recent years has interested me, probably due to some kind of nostalgia.
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Post by Ozymandias on Dec 12, 2023 3:03:51 GMT -5
Regarding the whole vigilante with guns crime fighter, I don't think anyone mentioned The Shadow.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Dec 12, 2023 12:27:47 GMT -5
Was the 1988 Flash Gordon mini-series from DC any good? My best friend back then bought all 9 parts and reckoned it was excellent, but for whatever reason I never read it myself. It's a series that in recent years has interested me, probably due to some kind of nostalgia. It's a very different and a very 80s take on Flash Gordon. It's a decent read, but it's not a great Flash Gordon interpretation (though not as bad as the SyFy series a decade or so ago). It's Dan Jurgens so it's well drawn with strong storytelling, but it's very much a reflection of late 80s America and very different from Raymond's vision of Flash Gordon. -M
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