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Post by commond on Sept 9, 2022 7:54:27 GMT -5
She was never supposed to be Queen, after all, and yet she selflessly and stoically dedicated her life to her duty for 70 years, with little in the way of any controversy. I, for one, respect her for that. That's the most remarkable part to me. To be thrust into the role, at such a young age, and devote the rest of her life to service, showed a remarkable sense of duty. It's a cliche, but I'm not sure we'll see her likes again. It's the end of an era, and I think many of us are trepidatious about what happens next.
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Post by impulse on Sept 9, 2022 9:16:13 GMT -5
"God save the king" doesn't have quite the same ring to it for some reason.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2022 9:18:05 GMT -5
I don't think I'll ever understand the UK's relationship with their monarchy. I understand American obsession with the British monarchy even less. Sorry for her passing, of course. She genuinely seemed committed to her duties. I'm just not really clear on what those duties were. I've been wondering if this supposed American fascination with the British monarchy is real. It's real in the American press, for sure, but it seems to me that the press is projecting their own interest onto Americans in general, and so it becomes conventional wisdom that Americans are fascinated with the monarchy. Wouldn't be the first time the press manufactured conventional wisdom. I don't know anybody that cares too much about it. A bunch of Americans saying "the queen seemed like a good person" at this historical turning point isn't nearly enough to convince me that Americans are fascinated by the monarchy - that's just a normal human reaction that doesn't require obsession. I maybe would have bought it in the days of Princess Diana, but aside from an event like this, who sees Americans talking about the royals these days? Just so it's clear that I don't mean to dismissive towards those feeling a genuine sense of loss, I'll add my voice to the chorus of "if you're going to have a royal figurehead, she did a good job of it".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2022 9:19:40 GMT -5
"God save the king" doesn't have quite the same ring to it for some reason. As long as you mean it, man. (When Motorhead covers it, I'm allowed to make a punk reference)
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 9, 2022 10:31:50 GMT -5
As a constitutional monarch, she had no actual power to rule. She was basically a living symbol of the nation, a link to tradition and history, whose job it was to make public appearances to lend a focus on good works and the people of the nation,. She received foreign leaders and dignitaries and acted as an ambassador of the British people and as head of the Commonwealth, helping to maintain a close relationship with former colonies, for mutual benefit (though you can argue which side benefitted more from it). She lived a life of luxury and privilege; but, did not go out of her way to over indulge in such things (at least in public). She was dedicated to a life of service, honoring individuals who served the nation in some capacity, carrying out her ceremonial duties, like opening parliament and receiving new prime ministers (one of her final acts). She also traveled the globe, bringing her nation's image and culture to other states, to help bring them together. Again, you can see it as self-serving, for the UK; but, it seems that she legitimately sought to bring people together to build a better world, as she spoke of on the 75th Anniversary of VE DAY.
I really do believe, and most historians and journalists agree, that she took her public roles very seriously and sincerely. She really did dedicate her life to serving her nation.
That is part of why criticism of Charles and others was so heavy, at times, at the carried on affairs, played the jet set, got caught in influence peddling scandals (and far worse), or acted like entitled nitwits, in public. You never saw that from her.
At the same time, she had been a figure in the public eye since she was 10 years old, when her father suddenly and unexpectedly became king. She went from a private and, by many accounts, idealic childhood, to becoming the heir to the throne and the responsibilities that came with it. She became queen at 27.
As for the American obsession; I have seen it close up and a lot of it is the typical celebrity worship, especially Diana. She was sold to this country as a fairy tale princess, like Cinderella, when in actuality she grew up in wealth and status and married into royalty, and indulged in things, in public. At the same time, she did carry on the public responsibilities, working with charities to help put a big spotlight on some very worthy causes, such as HIV/AIDS research and was one of the earliest public figures to openly embrace AIDS patients, when people were afraid to be in the same building with one, let alone the same room or even touch.
With the Queen, I think it is different. She was living history and a connection to an era that some experienced in their youth and many others only read about. I'm nearly 56 and she was the Queen of the UK for my entire life. She was Queen for all but about 25 years of my father's life.
I don't follow celebrity, but I found myself wrapped up in looking at news clips, from the BBC and other British sources, of the Queen and her life and the history that surrounded it, as history has always been one of my biggest interests. Some of it was fascinating stuff. One commenter said she was the perfect constitutional monarch, rarely saying anything controversial, leaving you to wonder her real thoughts on the politics and events of the nation. She remained, publicly, a neutral figure, even if she privately voiced other views. Given the nature of modern politics, in the UK and US (and elsewhere) that is a welcome thing.
I often wondered why anyone chose to keep a monarch, who had no political power; but, as I got older, I think I understood. She was like other national symbols and became something more than just a person or celebrity.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,156
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Post by Confessor on Sept 9, 2022 11:23:35 GMT -5
As an Englishman who has visited the States twice now (NYC, New England, and the Deep South) I can tell you that the American fascination with theBritish Royal Family is a real thing. My wife and I encountered a fair few people who wanted to talk to us about the royals, and when they found out my wife grew up in Windsor, not far from the castle, and also worked for the Royal Household's Windsor farm shop, they became even more interested. I think that Meghan Markle having married into the royal family has made Americans even more interested in it than they were already.
I don't pretend to understand the American fascination with our royal family, but it is definitely a real phenomenon. At least in my experience.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 9, 2022 11:39:58 GMT -5
An an Englishman who has visited the States twice now (NYC, New England, and the Deep South) and I can tell you that the American fascination with theBritish Royal Family is a real thing. My wife and I encountered a fair few people who wanted to talk to us about the royals, and when they found out my wife grew up in Windsor, not far from the castle, and also worked for the Royal Household's Windsor farm shop, they became even more interested. I think that Meghan Markle having married into the royal family has made Americans even more interested in it than they were already. I don't pretend to understand the American fascination with our total family, but it is definitely a real phenomenon. At least in my experience. It's 100% real and I don't understand it at all. But I'm pretty firmly anti-monarchist and there's a strong authoritarian strain in a lot of American thought. I have absolutely seen it across social media platforms and across social strata.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2022 12:07:26 GMT -5
As for the American obsession; I have seen it close up An an Englishman who has visited the States twice now (NYC, New England, and the Deep South) and I can tell you that the American fascination with theBritish Royal Family is a real thing. My wife and I encountered a fair few people who wanted to talk to us about the royals, and when they found out my wife grew up in Windsor, not far from the castle, and also worked for the Royal Household's Windsor farm shop, they became even more interested. I think that Meghan Markle having married into the royal family has made Americans even more interested in it than they were already. I don't pretend to understand the American fascination with our total family, but it is definitely a real phenomenon. At least in my experience. An an Englishman who has visited the States twice now (NYC, New England, and the Deep South) and I can tell you that the American fascination with theBritish Royal Family is a real thing. My wife and I encountered a fair few people who wanted to talk to us about the royals, and when they found out my wife grew up in Windsor, not far from the castle, and also worked for the Royal Household's Windsor farm shop, they became even more interested. I think that Meghan Markle having married into the royal family has made Americans even more interested in it than they were already. I don't pretend to understand the American fascination with our total family, but it is definitely a real phenomenon. At least in my experience. It's 100% real and I don't understand it at all. But I'm pretty firmly anti-monarchist and there's a strong authoritarian strain in a lot of American thought. I have absolutely seen it across social media platforms and across social strata. Huh. I'm not going to say anybody's experience is invalid because it's different from mine, but I'm clearly in the minority. IRL, I just don't see it. In social media, well, I only frequent this site and one other, and except for exceptional situations like we have this week, I can't think of any time someone here (or my other regular visit, which is politically oriented) discussed the royal family. Maybe I tune it out because I care not at all, or maybe it doesn't happen. I dunno.
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Post by commond on Sept 9, 2022 16:39:23 GMT -5
Didn't Americans have a similar fascination with the Kennedys?
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 9, 2022 18:39:42 GMT -5
An an Englishman who has visited the States twice now (NYC, New England, and the Deep South) and I can tell you that the American fascination with theBritish Royal Family is a real thing. My wife and I encountered a fair few people who wanted to talk to us about the royals, and when they found out my wife grew up in Windsor, not far from the castle, and also worked for the Royal Household's Windsor farm shop, they became even more interested. I think that Meghan Markle having married into the royal family has made Americans even more interested in it than they were already. I don't pretend to understand the American fascination with our total family, but it is definitely a real phenomenon. At least in my experience. It's 100% real and I don't understand it at all. But I'm pretty firmly anti-monarchist and there's a strong authoritarian strain in a lot of American thought.
I have absolutely seen it across social media platforms and across social strata. And a strong celebritarian strain, too.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 9, 2022 18:40:10 GMT -5
Didn't Americans have a similar fascination with the Kennedys? Some did and do.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 9, 2022 18:56:01 GMT -5
She was basically a living symbol of the nation, a link to tradition and history... And I always ask, a symbol of what? Of privilege by birth, of a status system based on the circumstances of birth alone, of the belief that there are those born to rule and those born to serve, and of the pretense or myth that there is a direct connection with a past that no longer exists. It's like Main Street, USA in Disneyland (or World). The empire is long gone, but the trappings are ever on display for state occasions and ceremonies; that world began to crumble after the First World War, yet by having a "royal family," people can indulge in the notion that, as the New Yorker used to put it, "There'll always be an England." Hell, if things had broken differently somewhere along the line, the living symbol of imperial tradition could have been Prince Andrew. Though God knows republican democracy has been battered and bruised here in the States and elsewhere lately, I always remind folks here who are enamored even a little bit of monarchy that those who live in one are subjects, not citizens.
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Post by commond on Sept 9, 2022 19:28:09 GMT -5
I don’t think very many people viewed themselves as the Queen’s subjects. They had the same rights as citizens of a republic. Monarchy doesn’t really work like that in the 21st century, at least not in Europe. Most people’s gripe with the Monarchy involve the cost of running one. Personally, I’d be much more inclined towards being anti-Monarchy if the politicians running our countries did a better job.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 9, 2022 20:01:13 GMT -5
I don’t think very many people viewed themselves as the Queen’s subjects. They had the same rights as citizens of a republic. Monarchy doesn’t really work like that in the 21st century, at least not in Europe. Most people’s gripe with the Monarchy involve the cost of running one. Personally, I’d be much more inclined towards being anti-Monarchy if the politicians running our countries did a better job. Really? Tell that to any of a number of people from all over the world, from Burmese, to Kenyans, to Indians, to the Irish, the Pakistanis and those from the islands of the Caribbean for starters.
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Post by foxley on Sept 9, 2022 21:21:58 GMT -5
I don’t think very many people viewed themselves as the Queen’s subjects. They had the same rights as citizens of a republic. Monarchy doesn’t really work like that in the 21st century, at least not in Europe. Most people’s gripe with the Monarchy involve the cost of running one. Personally, I’d be much more inclined towards being anti-Monarchy if the politicians running our countries did a better job. Really? Tell that to any of a number of people from all over the world, from Burmese, to Kenyans, to Indians, to the Irish, the Pakistanis and those from the islands of the Caribbean for starters. And how do the Native Americans, the Hawaiians, the Filipinos, etc. feel about the US' great exercise in the abolition of monarchy?
I am reluctant to post this here as it is derailing the purpose of this thread, but I cannot understand how so many Americans can be so down on the idea of a constitutional monarchy, but can turn a President into an object of godlike veneration.
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