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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 23, 2015 13:38:03 GMT -5
Ehhh...they'll get better eventually.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 14:40:59 GMT -5
I don't think you can say that definitively, since they've never tried. I'd point to the massive popularity of Manga in the United States as proof that fans ARE happy to read about real deaths that have lasting impact... never mind Game of Thrones I agree that it's a totally different model, but there's no reason it couldn't work.. it just hasn't been tried. I don't even think it's that big of a risk, considering the track record. I also think the overlap between Manga fans and American comic fans is HUGE. Perhaps not among this board, but fans of my daughter's generation (she's 15) and, I suspect, the one before it, are happy to read whatever they like, regardless of the source. It's the style and story they care about. I do think alot of the problem is the fact that Marvel and DC are now owned by conglomerates taht see Comics as a testing ground for IP at best... I think that's why we're getting so many 'it's a good pitch' series about characters no one really cares about.. it's all about finding the next Walking Dead. I won't deny anime sells well. or did, sales numbers have steadily declined in the US for the past 5-7 years from its peak about 10 years ago. But look at where it sells-on the Diamond sales charts i.e. the market that services the typical American comic book consumer who frequents an LCS and buys mainstream super-hero books regularly-anime barely registers on the charts. In the book trade however, anime scores much better and nearly dominates the charts while traditional super-hero books are the ones that barely register on those charts-why-because those are tow different customer bases. Enter a manga/anime purchase on Amazon who will market/exploit anything to anybody to make a sale no matter how tenuous the connection in their customers who bought this also bought-suggestions. Do any traditional American super-hero comics come up as a recommendation that other consumers of the product are buying? Nope. How about entering a super-hero comic to see if manga/anime come up...Nope again. Why not. Because there is not enough cross-over between those customer bases for Amazon to try to exploit. If Amazon's playground doesn't have a crossover between those markets, nobody's does and the overlap you see is much smaller than you think. And when publishers enact a change, they immediately see a deluge of complaints (either via letters pages back in the day or online now)and loss of sales after a short peak. The longer the change stays in place the more attrition in sales. And since sales are 3 months ahead retailers reacting to their customers dropping books takes 3 months to register in upcoming sales so that short delay before sales start to drop is more a product of the ordering system than fans willing to give the change a chance. If sales start to drop immediately after these big changes nearly every time-what incentive is there for a publisher to let the change last longer? If there is a sharper attrition drop when you make a change than hen you don't-what possible reason is there to make those lasting changes? On he hope every indicator you have is wrong? That the data you continuously see in response to change will suddenly be different? How is that good business? They don't need to do a long term change to see that change negatively impacts sales and customer satisfaction and all that matters to them is the numbers in the next quarterly report. Those numbers aren't good, someone else is likely to be making the decision about what if anything to change. You can't play for the long game if the short game removes you from the competition. Comic buyers have met the enemy and it is themselves. They get the comics their buying patterns deserve. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 23, 2015 14:44:44 GMT -5
Comic buyers have met the enemy and it is themselves. They get the comics their buying patterns deserve. -M Ding ding ding!!! But they won't believe it for a second...as they keep buying the same thing year after year.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 23, 2015 17:18:44 GMT -5
Maybe I need to check out some manga from the library. I've watched a lot of anime in the 90's, but manga no, outside of Oh My Goddess! Full Metal Alchemist is a good one to start I think it's 28 volumes in Manga (I've only read a couple...mostly I've watched the anime). If you like Oh My Goddess, Fairy Tail will probably be up your alley, though that one is kinda endless. it's not my thing, but my daughter and her posse are big fans. There's also Excel Saga.. that's an older one, but might godo for you as well. All this talk of FMA reminded me of one of, if not the first youtube video I watched. And I don't even remember how or where I found it, but it's still funny...
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2015 18:27:31 GMT -5
I'd argue that people who buy stuff from comic book stores are a small portion of comic book fans.. which is exactly the problem. Those people are just not large enough to be a real market. There are millions out there they like superheroes that need to be buying comic books . I'd also argue that it's not the manga's fault that most traditional comic book store owners are so steadfast in their way they won't buy manga to sell. Also, why buy it from the comic book store when you can get it for 40%-50% from amazon, or on sale at the book store. If you want an actual comic book you HAVE to go to a comic book store.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 23:56:30 GMT -5
I'd argue that people who buy stuff from comic book stores are a small portion of comic book fans.. which is exactly the problem. Those people are just not large enough to be a real market. There are millions out there they like superheroes that need to be buying comic books . I'd also argue that it's not the manga's fault that most traditional comic book store owners are so steadfast in their way they won't buy manga to sell. Also, why buy it from the comic book store when you can get it for 40%-50% from amazon, or on sale at the book store. If you want an actual comic book you HAVE to go to a comic book store. Comics are not a competitive economic value for fans who like super-heroes but don't buy comics. They are also not sold (or produced in) in a format that satisfies casual readers because unlike a movie or a season of a TV series, they do not offer one coherent cohesive and complete story that can be consumed and enjoyed in and of itself (and in the TV series, each episode can stand on its own even when part of a larger season long arc for the most part unlike a single issue of a comic book). In my view, this is the single biggest reason why the success of the films and TV haven't translated into sales of monthly comics or even of most trades. The product (i.e. the traditional comic book or even traditional arc collected in a trade)in its structure and format only satisfies that small niche audience and doesn't give a fan of the content but not the medium a satisfactory entertainment experience for the cost. However they cannot change the format without losing the traditional base of customers and it comes down to comic fans get the format their buying habits deserve, and they are their own worse enemy when it comes to the success of the industry to a broader audience. I takes most comics 6 months to tell 1 story at a cost of $24 roughly and that story may not be cohesive, complete and able to stand on its own when all is said and done. And each issue only takes maybe 15 minutes to read so its 6 months wait for an hour and a half of entertainment for $24. For the same price I can buy a movie on blueray or an entire season of a TV show and get not only more entertainment time but a complete experience in and of itself. The current paradigm of the comic format is not one that works in a society that has an economy and entertainment system built on the principle of instant gratification and everything being complete in and of itself and available immediately. It's not just competition for price and entertainment value, it's a content delivery system that was antiquated last century and hasn't evolved at all as tastes, expectations and standards have changed. So fans of super-heroes as they experience them more commonly in the 21st century are not going to become fans of comics or even want to read comics until comics themselves deliver an entertainment experience that meets their expectations. It's unrealistic to expect the audience to accommodate the medium, the medium has to capture the audience, and comics do not capture contemporary audiences the way they are currently produced and delivered. I love the medium of comics. It can work in the 21st century still, but not really the way Marvel and DC are still doing it. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 24, 2015 5:35:51 GMT -5
No argument here that decompressed story telling stinks
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Post by dbutler69 on Oct 29, 2015 11:24:56 GMT -5
I prefer the Marvel method. Without knowing the character at all, it's just a body, and it becomes even more obvious that the character was created to be killed off, like those dudes in red shirts in the original Star Trek series.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Oct 29, 2015 12:12:01 GMT -5
Even the 'they need to keep the IP' answer to why resurrections keep on happening doesn't cut it. Because having a new character take up the mantle of the old character is also a very common practice. Flash, Green Lantern, Supergirl, ect.
The reason characters keep coming back is either a fan who didn't like the death is given writing duties or an editor who doesn't actually know what good storytelling is thinks it would be a good marketing gimmick.
Anime isn't immune to this syndrome-DBZ, for instance, was not only notorious for literally everyone but Hercule dying and coming back, usually multiple times. Goku's return arguably ruined the series.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 29, 2015 19:19:08 GMT -5
True, but at least in DBZ its been a part of the story from the beginning.. one could even say it was parodying the coming back to life thing.
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