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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 9:39:11 GMT -5
Oh, I get it. But I think the point you might be missing (? not sure?) is that she has already made statements and explained her statements (a lot more than I probably would have). If she chooses not to discuss her explanations further when you quote her and demand a different, more elaborate explanation, then she shouldn't have to.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 10, 2015 9:45:10 GMT -5
I think Moore's overall point is valid. Artistically, it makes zero sense to do anything with those characters. Does it make any sense at all to take Frank Baum's Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz and turn her into a nymphomaniac cocaine whore who has sex with her own father in Lost Girls? Cuz that's what he did with her...along with Peter Pan, Tinkerbell, Captain Hook, Alice from Wonderland. Throw in other Moore ingredients like rape and bestiality...but Moore fans probably consider this artistic. Others try to legitimise this by saying, oh, those characters are there for the taking because they're now in the public domain...but the fact remains, he has mined well known characters created by others to achieve his own ends. Fair question. My answer is yes because Dorothy and the others are established characters, characters that Moore uses in a very counterintuitive context. Like it or hate it, and independent of its actual merits or lack thereof, Lost girls is a work doing something totally unexpected with classic literary figures. As such, be it a success or a failure, the attempt is justified on artistic grounds. On the other hand, using non-entities like Night Owl or Silk Spectre to tell more super-hero adventures is not creativity; frankly, it strikes me as little more than trying to capitalize on Watchmen's enduring popularity. I can fully understand why Moore suggests that the "amazing creative talent" of the people involved (or however DC worded it) would be better used by creating something new.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 10, 2015 9:52:32 GMT -5
yes indeed, and to put it to a more extreme comparison, it would be like saying Hitler or Kissinger were lame villains because they never were violent warriors. The stock and trade of superhero comics books is physical confrontation. There are villains that do not engage physically, like the Penguin, Puppetmaster but I don't know if you would call them exciting. Scarface, or more to the point the Ventriloquist, is one of the most interesting characters that doesn't engage in physical confrontations. Not only is Scarface not real, a puppet, and the Ventriloquist is the real mastermind, even though his brain doesn't even allow him to recognize that, but somehow he still gets thugs to do his dirty work. And they respect him as a crime boss just as much as any other Gotham crime boss. I even remember in Batman: TAS, there was an episode where one of the new hires pointed out Scarface was just a puppet and one of the other crew told him to basically STFU if he didn't want to die. Now that's interesting.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Dec 10, 2015 10:01:36 GMT -5
I think the matters of Lost Girls and Moore have been thrashed enough, and the discussion is turning personal. Everyone please remember that the title of the thread says "opinions", and everyone is entitled to their own. Let's move on and discuss other opinions and let this dead horse lie.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 10, 2015 10:09:14 GMT -5
I think the matters of Lost Girls and Moore have been thrashed enough, and the discussion is turning personal. Everyone please remember that the title of the thread says " opinions", and everyone is entitled to their own. Let's move on and discuss other opinions and let this dead horse lie. Further, when having said discussions you may only discuss the opinions themselves not opine about the people making those opinions, or their motivations of said opinions or how you would classify said opinion(ie. "that's just a crude attack.")
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Post by Cei-U! on Dec 10, 2015 10:37:29 GMT -5
I agree with both of the previous posts. That said, I offer a new topic of conversation: the basic concept of the Silver Surfer--conscience-stricken herald of Galactus--is sound but the visual of the Oscar riding around the cosmos on a surfboard (it even had a rudder originally) is stupid as hell.
Cei-U! I summon the ho-hum ho-daddy!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 10, 2015 10:42:50 GMT -5
I agree with both of the previous posts. That said, I offer a new topic of conversation: the basic concept of the Silver Surfer--conscience-stricken herald of Galactus--is sound but the visual of the Oscar riding around the cosmos on a surfboard (it even had a rudder originally) is stupid as hell. Cei-U! I summon the ho-hum ho-daddy! I made a similar comment about the Black Racer in Shax's Superman review thread recently, I don't really get Kirby's fixation on outlandish forms of transportation.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 10, 2015 10:44:31 GMT -5
I agree with both of the previous posts. That said, I offer a new topic of conversation: the basic concept of the Silver Surfer--conscience-stricken herald of Galactus--is sound but the visual of the Oscar riding around the cosmos on a surfboard (it even had a rudder originally) is stupid as hell. Cei-U! I summon the ho-hum ho-daddy! While I'd like to call you a comic heretic, I can't argue with you. Maybe that was realized, as no other hearld after Surfer had a vehicle in which to transverse space. Unless you consider a hunk of rock for Terrax a vehicle. Edit: And thinking more on it ... maybe it wouldn't have been so ridiculous if his actual name hadn't also drawn attention to his means of transportation. Just like Black Racer guardian mentioned above.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Dec 10, 2015 10:45:35 GMT -5
I think the surfboard is genius. It's a cool visual that works despite the tie to a sport popular with stoner dudes with a death wish. The Black Racer? Eh...I'd agree on that one. Even Kirby couldn't making a cosmic messenger of death look cool on a pair of ski's.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 10, 2015 10:45:37 GMT -5
My library does not have Lost Girls (I knew it was a long shot) but they do have Moore's recent works Nemo: Heart of Ice and Nemo: Roses of Berlin! I'm surprised these books have made it into the library system so quickly! And I requested them just a few days ago and they are already waiting for me at my local branch!
I am so looking forward to them! The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is almost 100% successful as far as I'm concerned. I didn't like Century as much as the others, but I still liked it quite a bit and some of it was great! (Like the use of "The Threepenny Opera" in the first part of Century. I love "The Threepenny Opera"!)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 10, 2015 10:47:29 GMT -5
I agree with both of the previous posts. That said, I offer a new topic of conversation: the basic concept of the Silver Surfer--conscience-stricken herald of Galactus--is sound but the visual of the Oscar riding around the cosmos on a surfboard (it even had a rudder originally) is stupid as hell. Cei-U! I summon the ho-hum ho-daddy! Whaaaaat??? Well, yeah, it might be silly... Almost as much as Gotlib's parody the Silver Skater... but I always loved the sheer simplicity of the design (rudder notwithstanding). The Surfer, visually speaking, is stunning! He was even more so in his original Kirby look, with the domed head and the oversized eyes. And no cosmic speedo!!!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 10, 2015 10:47:48 GMT -5
I think the surfboard is genius. It's a cool visual that works despite the tie to a sport popular with stoner dudes with a death wish. The Black Racer? Eh...I'd agree on that one. Even Kirby couldn't making a cosmic messenger of death look cool on a pair of ski's. It's definitely an interesting visual, but it still seems weird to me.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Dec 10, 2015 10:48:51 GMT -5
Could you imagine what Kirby would come up with today? "The Platinum Segwayer"
Now, the Surfer and the Black Racer would have been really goofy if Kirby took a more traditional route. Say, a group of teenagers being hit by a cosmic bolt from space while shopping at a sporting goods store.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Dec 10, 2015 10:51:31 GMT -5
I agree with both of the previous posts. That said, I offer a new topic of conversation: the basic concept of the Silver Surfer--conscience-stricken herald of Galactus--is sound but the visual of the Oscar riding around the cosmos on a surfboard (it even had a rudder originally) is stupid as hell. Cei-U! I summon the ho-hum ho-daddy! Furthermore, why would he refer to himself as the "Silver Surfer"? Granted, it's descriptive to one (and only one) of the languages of one of the numerous planets he's visited, but as a name it's really dumb.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 10, 2015 10:51:52 GMT -5
I think the surfboard is genius. It's a cool visual that works despite the tie to a sport popular with stoner dudes with a death wish. The Black Racer? Eh...I'd agree on that one. Even Kirby couldn't making a cosmic messenger of death look cool on a pair of ski's. It's definitely an interesting visual, but it still seems weird to me. It is weird, but in a Howard the duck way. While the surfer's board can be seen as a simple surface on which to travel, a pair of skis (with poles, too!) can never be seen as anything else than a pair of skis. The hapless Gaard (dressed up as a hockey goaltender) had the same problem: no way can he be seen as anything else than as a cosmic hockey player.
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