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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 24, 2024 8:39:43 GMT -5
While most of what I've read by Morrison has been sparse, I've enjoyed what I've read by him with the exception of The Invisibles. Doom Patrol felt like Superheroes mixed with an unhealthy dose of LSD, same with Marvel Boy. The Multiversity also seemed really unique for the time, kind of like a mesh of Crisis and Watchmen I'm sort of hit and miss with Morrisson... I loved Marvel Boy and his JLA run. Didn't care for Doom Patrol or Seven Soldiers or Multiversity. Or 1,000,000. We3 is great. I DID enjoy his X-Men run, although I would guess I am in the minority there. I really liked his X-Men run too, because he tried something different. It was however a very rare case of me enjoying Morrison's work.
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Post by Calidore on Jul 24, 2024 9:41:17 GMT -5
Whether I end up liking any particular work by Morrison is a crapshoot, but they always felt to me like an artist with a vision, even if I couldn't see it. One who I do feel engages too much in weirdness for its own sake is Peter Milligan. I've enjoyed much of his work, but I found his Shade, the Changing Man unreadable.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 24, 2024 11:40:03 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about Morrison's work, weird for the sake of it, I was talking about public behavior. In interviews and public appearances or statements posted, there have been many where I felt like he was posing as some kind of Alistair Crowley wannabe and others where I wasn't sure. When he talked about tripping on mushrooms, when he conceived his Swamp Thing mini-run, my BS meter started pinging, as he sounded more like he was affecting a persona to sell the book. I had similar vibes about Alan Moore's talk of snake gods. In his case, that long interview he did with George Khoury, collected in a book, went a long way of clarifying some of what he had said, to where I thought, okay, the spells as a meditation mantra makes a bit of sense; but, the rest still seems like an act, to appear to be an eccentric genius.
With Morrison, I often felt there was more acting than rationalization, though I have no real insider knowledge of his private life.
I've liked some of his superhero stuff (except the afore-mentioned portrayal of Talia), especially Zenith, until it went into the weird dimension and got more esoteric than my tastes. I liked what I read of Animal Man (the first trade collection), his Steed & Mrs Peel Avengers mini, WE3, All-Star Superman (largely because it felt like he was cribbing heavily from Elliot Maggin) and was fine with JLA, though I didn't think it was that brilliant (just compared to the post Giffen et al run). Doom Patrol had some interesting stuff; but also a lot of stuff that felt self-indulgent and didn't really do much for me. In those cases, it tended to feel like he thought it was way more insightful or brilliant than I did. Your mileage may vary.
I tried Seven Soldiers and thought it was a hot mess and not a particularly good one. I've only glanced at his X-Men, mainly the Fantomex appearances, as he ripped off...sorry, "homaged" Diabolik and Fantomas.
That's the other thing; for a guy who threw shade at Alan Moore's work and Robert Mayer's Superfolks novel, he has a pretty extensive stack of crib notes from other people's work. He usually put his own spin on them (well, except Moorcock, if you ask me...and Moorcock), but so did Moore and the latter's work is no more blatantly Superfolks than Superman was a photo-copy of Phillip Wylie's Gladiator or Burroughs' John Carter. You can say he took ideas from it, but that is about as far as it went. We aren't talking Bill Mantlo plagiarizing Harlan Ellison and you'd also have to condemn most creators in comics, who took ideas from other works.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 24, 2024 13:29:04 GMT -5
I'm sort of hit and miss with Morrisson... I loved Marvel Boy and his JLA run. Didn't care for Doom Patrol or Seven Soldiers or Multiversity. Or 1,000,000. We3 is great. I DID enjoy his X-Men run, although I would guess I am in the minority there. Still not sure how I feel about paganism and general witchery other than people are well within their right to believe whatever they want to provided that they don't try to infringe on somebody else's beliefs I had similar vibes about Alan Moore's talk of snake gods. In his case, that long interview he did with George Khoury, collected in a book, went a long way of clarifying some of what he had said, to where I thought, okay, the spells as a meditation mantra makes a bit of sense; but, the rest still seems like an act, to appear to be an eccentric genius. I've generally been holding my tongue for desire not to offend anyone, but there is nothing here that is more ridiculous than the general beliefs of mainstream religions. Paganism = a religion that lost out to another religion.
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Post by tonebone on Jul 24, 2024 13:42:59 GMT -5
Still not sure how I feel about paganism and general witchery other than people are well within their right to believe whatever they want to provided that they don't try to infringe on somebody else's beliefs I had similar vibes about Alan Moore's talk of snake gods. In his case, that long interview he did with George Khoury, collected in a book, went a long way of clarifying some of what he had said, to where I thought, okay, the spells as a meditation mantra makes a bit of sense; but, the rest still seems like an act, to appear to be an eccentric genius. I've generally been holding my tongue for desire not to offend anyone, but there is nothing here that is more ridiculous than the general beliefs of mainstream religions. Paganism = a religion that lost out to another religion. What is "ridiculous" to you is a deeply held belief to others. If this is how you exercise your desire to not offend anyone, you have failed.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 24, 2024 13:48:40 GMT -5
I've generally been holding my tongue for desire not to offend anyone, but there is nothing here that is more ridiculous than the general beliefs of mainstream religions. Paganism = a religion that lost out to another religion. What is "ridiculous" to you is a deeply held belief to others. If this is how you exercise your desire to not offend anyone, you have failed. And yet, Moore and Morrison's deeply held beliefs are fair game because they aren't mainstream. Gotcha. And I'm out before it becomes any more of a problem. And the mods can delete my remarks if they want. Because the double standard it very very real.
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Post by nairb73 on Jul 24, 2024 14:19:46 GMT -5
I hold no ill will toward Slam for his comments about religion. I already know he's gonna burn in hell for his dismissiveness towards post-1939 Superman,so...:-)
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 24, 2024 14:35:59 GMT -5
I hold no ill will toward Slam for his comments about religion. I already know he's gonna burn in hell for his dismissiveness towards post-1939 Superman,so...:-) Can I get to purgatory* if I'm marginally okay with the Fleischer Superman cartoons? *This would be predicated on me believing in either place.
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Post by nairb73 on Jul 24, 2024 15:12:35 GMT -5
I hold no ill will toward Slam for his comments about religion. I already know he's gonna burn in hell for his dismissiveness towards post-1939 Superman,so...:-) Can I get to purgatory* if I'm marginally okay with the Fleischer Superman cartoons? *This would be predicated on me believing in either place. Oddly, getting to purgatory is achieved by intentionally falling out of any window at the Daily Planet, and assuming it will be OK.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 24, 2024 15:32:31 GMT -5
I just wanna clarify. I don't begrudge Moore or Morrison any deep belief in whatever, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone. With Moore, at first, it sounded, to me, like he was saying stuff about worshipping an old snake god, to get a reaction from the interviewer. When I have seen him interviewed or speak on camera, I always felt like there was a certain performance art aspect to it and his public readings and similar events fed into that perception. Within that George Khoury interview, he talked more in depth about how he saw his rituals and what they meant, which gave it more context than a quote in a fanzine, which gives understanding. So, I don't doubt his sincerity of belief in his personal rituals. I do think there is still a lot of performance in his public appearances and in some of the interviews he gives, where he does things like dismiss cinema as an art, usually in conjunction with adaptations of his work. To be fair, I'm pretty dismissive of most of those, as they tend to completely miss the underlying themes and subtext you get in reading the work.
With Morrison, I haven't come across anything like that kind of depth in an interview; or, at least, one that didn't have a specific agenda. We used to carry some of the Disinformation books and I looked at his stuff in there and it sounded like he was conning the marks. Whether he was or not, that was my perception. When he talks about consuming psychedelic mushrooms or other narcotics, I sometimes question whether that is a legitimate thing or is he putting on the persona of drug-infused writer of weird things, like a William S Burroughs. He has admitted to adopting personas, at times in his life, like dressing and acting like Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius, in his younger days. When he talked of dressing in drag and performing rituals (was that in Supergods?) I felt this cynical nudging that he might be trying to sound eccentric. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe I am too cynical in my old age. I've had a couple of friends who performed in drag shows and what they described bout it, for them, sounded nothing like what Morrison described, which came across more like he just put on a costume, rather than tapped into a part of himself. Maybe its just a personal prejudice because of a few things he said in interviews, in the late 80s and early 90s that kind of irked me and I just view anything that comes from his mouth or pen with suspicion as to an agenda. When he talked more in the realm of pop culture, I felt there was more sincerity, like in introductions he did in books about The Avengers (UK tv series) and The Prisoner, or when he'd discuss comic book series, characters or publishers.
I don't question his spiritual beliefs, though most of the interviews I have read never really discuss things in those terms. When he talked about rituals or concepts, it was usually more in the abstract, rather than the personal; so I never fully took it as his own spiritual belief, as much as philosophical concepts he found interesting, or was using in his work. Granted the line between those two things is rather smudged.
Personally, I am an atheist, but am not an "evangelical" one, where I feel I have to attack other's belief in a certain deity or religious teaching. My grandfather was a Baptist preacher and I didn't believe in the God he spoke of, but I respected the fact that he practiced the kind of faith he preached, to be kind to people, help out when you can and just try to make the world a better place. I worked with a group of chaplains, in the Navy and respected their work, both spiritually and psychologically, as counsellors. My parents were active in their church though is had disagreements with my mother, though never heated. It was more she expressed one thing, I expressed an alternate view, she would tell me I would think differently, when I'm older and I said no, I was pretty certain I wouldn't and that is still true. At the same time, she accepted my forging my own way and respected that. Like I said, I am fine with whatever gives people hope, peace, comfort or inspirations, so long as it doesn't bring harm to others.
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Post by commond on Jul 24, 2024 15:39:34 GMT -5
Y'know what Morrison book I really liked? The Filth. Now there's a book that separates the men from the fanboys.
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Post by berkley on Jul 24, 2024 16:46:26 GMT -5
Y'know what Morrison book I really liked? The Filth. Now there's a book that separates the men from the fanboys. That was the first Morrison book I read and thus the one that convinced me to look at more of his stuff.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 24, 2024 17:18:18 GMT -5
With Morrison, I haven't come across anything like that kind of depth in an interview; or, at least, one that didn't have a specific agenda. We used to carry some of the Disinformation books and I looked at his stuff in there and it sounded like he was conning the marks. Whether he was or not, that was my perception. When he talks about consuming psychedelic mushrooms or other narcotics, I sometimes question whether that is a legitimate thing or is he putting on the persona of drug-infused writer of weird things, like a William S Burroughs. He has admitted to adopting personas, at times in his life, like dressing and acting like Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius, in his younger days. When he talked of dressing in drag and performing rituals (was that in Supergods?) I felt this cynical nudging that he might be trying to sound eccentric. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe I am too cynical in my old age. I've had a couple of friends who performed in drag shows and what they described bout it, for them, sounded nothing like what Morrison described, which came across more like he just put on a costume, rather than tapped into a part of himself. Maybe its just a personal prejudice because of a few things he said in interviews, in the late 80s and early 90s that kind of irked me and I just view anything that comes from his mouth or pen with suspicion as to an agenda. When he talked more in the realm of pop culture, I felt there was more sincerity, like in introductions he did in books about The Avengers (UK tv series) and The Prisoner, or when he'd discuss comic book series, characters or publishers. Theoretically speaking, could Morrison himself be a persona? One of the more odd things about his documentary was admitting that when he was writing the Invisibles, he was deteriorating physically much like how King Mob was.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 24, 2024 17:38:37 GMT -5
With Morrison, I haven't come across anything like that kind of depth in an interview; or, at least, one that didn't have a specific agenda. We used to carry some of the Disinformation books and I looked at his stuff in there and it sounded like he was conning the marks. Whether he was or not, that was my perception. When he talks about consuming psychedelic mushrooms or other narcotics, I sometimes question whether that is a legitimate thing or is he putting on the persona of drug-infused writer of weird things, like a William S Burroughs. He has admitted to adopting personas, at times in his life, like dressing and acting like Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius, in his younger days. When he talked of dressing in drag and performing rituals (was that in Supergods?) I felt this cynical nudging that he might be trying to sound eccentric. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe I am too cynical in my old age. I've had a couple of friends who performed in drag shows and what they described bout it, for them, sounded nothing like what Morrison described, which came across more like he just put on a costume, rather than tapped into a part of himself. Maybe its just a personal prejudice because of a few things he said in interviews, in the late 80s and early 90s that kind of irked me and I just view anything that comes from his mouth or pen with suspicion as to an agenda. When he talked more in the realm of pop culture, I felt there was more sincerity, like in introductions he did in books about The Avengers (UK tv series) and The Prisoner, or when he'd discuss comic book series, characters or publishers. Theoretically speaking, could Morrison himself be a persona? That's the thing, I have found, with people in the public eye, especially performers, which includes many notable authors. there is the public image and the real person and many in the arts craft a public persona to deal with the public, in whatever fashion, while the real person remains private, known only to close friends and family. people who knew Robin Williams talked of him "always being on," if ther were more than one or two people; but, when you got to see the real Robin, he was a very shy, sweet person. Steve Martin appeared at one of the B&N manager conferences (they had publisher reps, authors and guest speakers, in preparation for the holidays and major book releases), and my boss sat at a table with him and he was very lively on stage; but, among them, he was very quiet and reserved. I once worked at an off-site signing, at the local library, for Tamora Pierce, and she spoke to two audiences of young fans (almost entirely girls and their mothers) and she adopted different personas, as a gimmick, for each one, at the stat, to put them at ease. In the first, she spoke very haltingly, coughing and stammering, like she was painfully shy; but, then grew more and more confident with each statement, until she became herself and everyone realized she had pranked them and laughed. During the break, we complimented her on her performance and she said she did another version, where she is flamboyant and eccentric and she then did that version, for the second group. It was a hoot. She did some amateur radio theatrics with a group, recreating old radio plays or new pieces, in that style. In pro wrestling, the heels were usually the nicest people, when not in character, while the babyfaces were often jerks to people. I think what comic fandom sees of Grant Morrison and Alan Moore, and others, is a public persona they have developed, either to appear more or to maintain some sense of privacy, or to market their work. Not everyone. Some are pretty much "what you see is what you get." Some you build this image, in your head, based on their work, then you meet them and are floored that they are nothing like that. You expect Mike Grell to be this big bruiser, festooned with guns and swords, tossing back beer and whiskey and fighting off criminals and killers with one hand and sketching with the other. Then you meet him and he is this small man (I'm 5 ft 6 and he is no bigger), with an impish twinkle and a great sense of humor, who just happens to love classic adventure and mystery fiction and excels at creating it. He does own a few firearms and has fenced and shot arrows, which just makes the legends that much more colorful, like the story of him setting a pistol on the table, at First Comics, during contract negotiations. As he tells it, it was just after Christmas, his brother gave him a .45 cal automatic pistol and he had it in his briefcase and someone saw it and wanted to take a look at it and he pulled it out, made sure it was safe and handed it to them. That morphed into a tale of tough negotiating tactics. I mean, come on, would this guy pull out a gun, as a power play? Pretty good singing voice, there!
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 24, 2024 17:44:16 GMT -5
Theoretically speaking, could Morrison himself be a persona? That's the thing, I have found, with people in the public eye, especially performers, which includes many notable authors. there is the public image and the real person and many in the arts craft a public persona to deal with the public, in whatever fashion, while the real person remains private, known only to close friends and family. people who knew Robin Williams talked of him "always being on," if ther were more than one or two people; but, when you got to see the real Robin, he was a very shy, sweet person. Steve Martin appeared at one of the B&N manager conferences (they had publisher reps, authors and guest speakers, in preparation for the holidays and major book releases), and my boss sat at a table with him and he was very lively on stage; but, among them, he was very quiet and reserved. I once worked at an off-site signing, at the local library, for Tamora Pierce, and she spoke to two audiences of young fans (almost entirely girls and their mothers) and she adopted different personas, as a gimmick, for each one, at the stat, to put them at ease. In the first, she spoke very haltingly, coughing and stammering, like she was painfully shy; but, then grew more and more confident with each statement, until she became herself and everyone realized she had pranked them and laughed. During the break, we complimented her on her performance and she said she did another version, where she is flamboyant and eccentric and she then did that version, for the second group. It was a hoot. She did some amateur radio theatrics with a group, recreating old radio plays or new pieces, in that style. In pro wrestling, the heels were usually the nicest people, when not in character, while the babyfaces were often jerks to people. I think what comic fandom sees of Grant Morrison and Alan Moore, and others, is a public persona they have developed, either to appear more or to maintain some sense of privacy, or to market their work. Not everyone. Some are pretty much "what you see is what you get." Some you build this image, in your head, based on their work, then you meet them and are floored that they are nothing like that. You expect Mike Grell to be this big bruiser, festooned with guns and swords, tossing back beer and whiskey and fighting off criminals and killers with one hand and sketching with the other. Then you meet him and he is this small man (I'm 5 ft 6 and he is no bigger), with an impish twinkle and a great sense of humor, who just happens to love classic adventure and mystery fiction and excels at creating it. He does own a few firearms and has fenced and shot arrows, which just makes the legends that much more colorful, like the story of him setting a pistol on the table, at First Comics, during contract negotiations. As he tells it, it was just after Christmas, his brother gave him a .45 cal automatic pistol and he had it in his briefcase and someone saw it and wanted to take a look at it and he pulled it out, made sure it was safe and handed it to them. That morphed into a tale of tough negotiating tactics. I mean, come on, would this guy pull out a gun, as a power play? Pretty good singing voice, there! Funny, I've always thought of Grell looking like the spitting image of Travis Morgan or Oliver Queen
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