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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 3, 2018 11:36:39 GMT -5
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 3, 2018 11:40:41 GMT -5
I really don't believe that you're right about that. I'd like to see some reliable evidence to support that statement. As they say on Wikipedia, "citation needed". Insinuating that I'm being untruthful is unwarranted, all to defend Swan... There's no question the well-muscled Marvel Hercules (and other characters) were not based on wide-waist dad bodies of old, but the very real, powerful image of the screen's Hercules, one Steve Reeves. Reeves' impact is also referenced in Rolling Stone's 2014 article, "Toga Party: 10 Sword-and-Sandal Films to See"-- Without the instant success and influence of Reeves redefining the look of a hero, one can easily look ahead to suggest it would have been highly unlikely Lou Ferrigno would have been cast as the Hulk (instead, going to early choice Ted "Lurch" Cassidy", who narrated the title sequence and provided the Hulk growl until his death), Schwarzenegger as Conan, or similar casting choices. Steve Reeves clearly redefined that in the minds of artists and filmmakers. The first sign of a failed argument is the infamous Appeal to Authority fallacy. I do not need anyone to support my side of the issue when history validates it in the acceptance of who is recognized as having handled / understood / captured the essence of Batman best. However, since you moved in that direction, to quote you--"citation needed". IOW, I would like to find one reference that cites Swan as being one of the best of the Batman artists, which is the only true counter to my belief that he could not draw Batman. If it were actually published, someone would have posted the reference by now. Its funny--there's an entire thread launched to trash Neal Adams art/influence/storytelling ability--a full-on, attempted takedown of a man--who by any measure is one of the greatest of all comic book talents, yet there's hardly any response in that thread matching the breathless defense of Curt Swan's Batman here. That is strange to say the least...or it could be sentimentality, which is not evidence based, or the best way of judging the quality of an artist's version of a character, Yet somehow, he was allowed to illustrate the title for how many years? Not just the US monthly, but covers for the UK version. Did he have that good a contract? Or was he actually appealing to readers? It is also irrefutable fact that Curt Swan is not referred to as a great or even good Batman artist. Again, if you must appeal to authority, I would love to see any published work naming him among the Infantinos, the Novicks, the Adams, the Aparos, or anyone else as one known to be recognized as a notable Batman artist (meaning he actually knew what he was doing /understood the essence of the character, as I've stated earlier). That's not too much to ask, since I had to produce Reeves citations.
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 3, 2018 11:41:29 GMT -5
Well, that's not quite true. But then again, I'm not the biggest fan of Swan's depiction of Superman, either. Also, citing the disagreement of "many knowledgeable experts" (published or otherwise) with an opinion is basically a form of argument from authority. True, and thank you.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 3, 2018 12:41:53 GMT -5
Steve Reeves Hercules 1958, Marvel's Hercules, introduced in Avengers !1, 1964 and looked like this And Kirby drew him this way The Hercules you are thinking about was the Buscema one in the later Avengers, a full 10 years after the Reeves movie. And that is the the way Big john drew. Do I prefer Buscema over Swan, sure, but the basis of your Reeves changed everything right away argument is bunk.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 3, 2018 12:50:57 GMT -5
Look at these muscle-men! (Really an excuse to post these covers! August, 1960 August 1961
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Post by brutalis on Jul 3, 2018 13:54:21 GMT -5
Bottom Line: DC wanted/liked Swan's artistic versions. Readers at that time bought his comics. Our own opinions today don't amount to anything or affect what was the past other than being what they are today: A PERSONAL OPINION. Nothing wrong with expressing your liking or disliking of an artist/writer when you understand it is a conversation and not a debate. IF you are trying to convince others to join in your own opinion then enjoy a witch hunt somewhere else. Make your statement and let it be heard and then move on. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.
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Post by comicsandwho on Jul 3, 2018 16:46:25 GMT -5
Look at these muscle-men! (Really an excuse to post these covers! August, 1960 August 1961 How many issues did Hercules appear in? I know that ACTION had an arc of several issues involving his meeting/fighting Superman, which was rather unusual for comics of that era.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 3, 2018 17:10:59 GMT -5
Anybody else read the short lived Hercules Unbound series from DC in the 70s. A fun, quirky book. Here Hercules almost looks Swansian
Wally Wood and Garcia-Lopez did the early issues and Simonson drew the later ones.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,082
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Post by Confessor on Jul 3, 2018 17:12:35 GMT -5
I really don't believe that you're right about that. I'd like to see some reliable evidence to support that statement. As they say on Wikipedia, "citation needed". Insinuating that I'm being untruthful is unwarranted, all to defend Swan... Not untruthful, just misinformed. And none of the quotes you provided support your statement that Steve Reeves' body type created a new cultural ideal for the super-strong male physique in the 50s and early 60s. Later on, yes, maybe he and others did. But not in the time time period we're talking about. The thing is though, as someone else said earlier in this thread, nobody else here agrees with you about Swan's depiction of Batman. Not one person! In a forum filled with as many knowledgeable comic book experts as this one -- some of them published authors on the subject, no less -- that should tell you something. The first sign of a failed argument is the infamous Appeal to Authority fallacy. I do not need anyone to support my side of the issue when history validates it in the acceptance of who is recognized as having handled / understood / captured the essence of Batman best. However, since you moved in that direction, to quote you--"citation needed". IOW, I would like to find one reference that cites Swan as being one of the best of the Batman artists, which is the only true counter to my belief that he could not draw Batman. If it were actually published, someone would have posted the reference by now. Its funny--there's an entire thread launched to trash Neal Adams art/influence/storytelling ability--a full-on, attempted takedown of a man--who by any measure is one of the greatest of all comic book talents, yet there's hardly any response in that thread matching the breathless defense of Curt Swan's Batman here. That is strange to say the least...or it could be sentimentality, which is not evidence based, or the best way of judging the quality of an artist's version of a character, Yet somehow, he was allowed to illustrate the title for how many years? Not just the US monthly, but covers for the UK version. Did he have that good a contract? Or was he actually appealing to readers? It is also irrefutable fact that Curt Swan is not referred to as a great or even good Batman artist. Again, if you must appeal to authority, I would love to see any published work naming him among the Infantinos, the Novicks, the Adams, the Aparos, or anyone else as one known to be recognized as a notable Batman artist (meaning he actually knew what he was doing /understood the essence of the character, as I've stated earlier). That's not too much to ask, since I had to produce Reeves citations. You know, I could continue to argue the toss about this with you, but you're continually moving the goalposts, putting words in my mouth (like claiming I said that Swan was among the best Batman artists or some such), and becoming irritable and combative. It's impossible to have a rational discourse with someone like that and, I guess, you're unlikely to admit that you're mistaken anyway. So, yeah...I'm done here.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 3, 2018 17:14:57 GMT -5
Anybody else read the short lived Hercules Unbound series from DC in the 70s. A fun, quirky book. Here Hercules almost looks Swansian
Wally Wood and Garcia-Lopez did the early issues and Simonson drew the later ones.
I read all the Simonson issues. But it's been many many moons.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 3, 2018 17:19:40 GMT -5
Anybody else read the short lived Hercules Unbound series from DC in the 70s. A fun, quirky book. Here Hercules almost looks Swansian
Wally Wood and Garcia-Lopez did the early issues and Simonson drew the later ones.
I read them when they came out, so a long time for me too. Just remembered them with all this Hercules talk.
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Post by brutalis on Jul 3, 2018 17:25:44 GMT -5
Anybody else read the short lived Hercules Unbound series from DC in the 70s. A fun, quirky book. Here Hercules almost looks Swansian
Wally Wood and Garcia-Lopez did the early issues and Simonson drew the later ones.
I read them when they came out, so a long time for me too. Just remembered them with all this Hercules talk. The Showcase Presents Edition of The Great Disaster collects the Hercules and Atomic Knights series in glorious black and white. A very sweet collection indeed!
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,082
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Post by Confessor on Jul 3, 2018 17:27:47 GMT -5
Well, that's not quite true - I don't like his Batman very much, either. But then again, I'm not the biggest fan of Swan's depiction of Superman, either. Well, fair enough, but I don't believe you stated that opinion earlier in this thread, did you? If you did, I must've missed it. Also, citing the disagreement of "many knowledgeable experts" (published or otherwise) with an opinion is basically a form of argument from authority. Except it isn't. It would only be a form of that particular logical fallacy if I said "...and therefore you're wrong." What I actually said was that, with so many knowledgable people disagreeing with Tarkintino's verdict of Swan's version of Batman, that should tell us something: that it's clearly a rather niche opinion. That seems to me to be pretty self-evident.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 3, 2018 17:39:35 GMT -5
Sometimes, arguments from authority aren't fallacies.
Do we listen to 98% of the world's Climate Scientist, or corporate shills and GOP idiots in Congress?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 17:54:22 GMT -5
My Favorite Curt Swan Superman Picture of all TimeI even use it as a wallpaper for my PC from time to time.
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