Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2018 14:20:54 GMT -5
You're right again in that if I'd been around to read these stories when they were first published, I might've come away with a different understanding of them. But I didn't. I read them in the 2000s, a decade where you could pick up a mainstream superhero comic and find Black Adam tearing people in two or the Blob eating the Wasp or Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny. When I read these stories of Moore's, all I see is the template lesser writers used to turn the DC & Marvel Universes into slaughter/charnel houses.I don't disagree, but that's hardly Moore's fault. Oops, I see Prince Hal got there before me. That'll teach me to read to the end of the thread before I reply.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 9, 2018 14:31:48 GMT -5
You're right again in that if I'd been around to read these stories when they were first published, I might've come away with a different understanding of them. But I didn't. I read them in the 2000s, a decade where you could pick up a mainstream superhero comic and find Black Adam tearing people in two or the Blob eating the Wasp or Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny. When I read these stories of Moore's, all I see is the template lesser writers used to turn the DC & Marvel Universes into slaughter/charnel houses.I don't disagree, but that's hardly Moore's fault. Oops, I see Prince Hal got there before me. That'll teach me to read to the end of the thread before I reply. I agree with Confessor! Welcome aboard!
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 9, 2018 17:42:09 GMT -5
I suppose you're all right. My general disdain for deconstruction aside, I shouldn't blame Moore for the bad imitators.
I'll still say the treatment of Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke" is completely distasteful, though.
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Post by rberman on Jul 9, 2018 18:25:38 GMT -5
I'll still say the treatment of Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke" is completely distasteful, though. It was shocking. But it also opened up new directions for her character rather than "Robin, but female."
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2018 19:13:07 GMT -5
I'll still say the treatment of Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke" is completely distasteful, though. It was shocking. But it also opened up new directions for her character rather than "Robin, but female." Yeah, this is the thing for me: I think what happened to Barbara Gorden in the Killing Joke was incredibly shocking...and that's exactly as it was intended to be! Personally, I never felt any annoyance or took any offence at what had been done to her because I really didn't care for Batgirl anyway. Likewise, I have never read a comic with Oracle in it, but from what I know about the character, she was a really positive example of a disabled hero in mainstream comics, wasn't she? Oracle always sounded like a pretty awesome character and a great role model for young disabled readers to me ...especially disabled women. And, in fact, wasn't there a load of outcry when they did away with Oracle and made Barbara able to walk again with the New52 reboot thing? I dunno, maybe it'd be different if I'd been a huge Batgirl fan, but as far as I'm concerned, what happened to Barbara Gorden was worth it, insofar as it was a vital part of the recipe that made The Killing Joke such an excellent and groundbreaking comic.
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Post by Cheswick on Jul 9, 2018 19:43:32 GMT -5
I'll still say the treatment of Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke" is completely distasteful, though. It was shocking. But it also opened up new directions for her character rather than "Robin, but female." But, that wasn't Moore's intent. It's Ostrander and his collaborators on Suicide Squad who deserve the credit for Barbara Gordon's initial, post-Killing Joke character development and, of course, other writers like Dixon and Simone, who worked with the character later. I realize you weren't crediting Moore with that, but some people do try to make that argument. It's like thanking someone for setting fire to your kitchen because you got a nice remodel afterward.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 9, 2018 20:47:42 GMT -5
It was shocking. But it also opened up new directions for her character rather than "Robin, but female." But, that wasn't Moore's intent. It's Ostrander and his collaborators on Suicide Squad who deserve the credit for Barbara Gordon's initial, post-Killing Joke character development and, of course, other writers like Dixon and Simone, who worked with the character later. I realize you weren't crediting Moore with that, but some people do try to make that argument. It's like thanking someone for setting fire to your kitchen because you got a nice remodel afterward.
Every indication is that The Killing Joke was never meant to be in continuity. So again...not Moore’s fault but that of the execs who decided to make it part of DC continuity.
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Post by Cheswick on Jul 9, 2018 21:38:29 GMT -5
But, that wasn't Moore's intent. It's Ostrander and his collaborators on Suicide Squad who deserve the credit for Barbara Gordon's initial, post-Killing Joke character development and, of course, other writers like Dixon and Simone, who worked with the character later. I realize you weren't crediting Moore with that, but some people do try to make that argument. It's like thanking someone for setting fire to your kitchen because you got a nice remodel afterward.
Every indication is that T he Killing Joke was never meant to be in continuity. So again...not Moore’s fault but that of the execs who decided to make it part of DC continuity. That is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that I have come across a few Moore fans who like to act like he was consciously doing the character a favor by crippling her.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 9, 2018 22:00:18 GMT -5
At no point in the Killing Joke does any character state that Barbara was raped. Shot, yes. Unclothed and photographed, yes. Tortured? Probably, given expressions in the panels where James Gordon is taken through the funhouse and sees the photos. Rape? It's possible but never deliberately stated. That has been inferred by readers. I'm not talking about the animated adaptation, as that wasn't Moore and deviates heavily from the source and provides more implication that Joker may have raped her. Still, leaving that aside, the violence in the Killing Joke was shocking; but, fit within the context of the story, that Joker had gone beyond his past MO, in his attempt to drive Gordon mad and turn Batman into a killer. Thing is, a lot of that is implied, as in Psycho and the end result is left more to the reader. As is the nature of comics (and other media) success breeds imitators and most have neither the talent or thought that Moore gives his work. Just as Dark Knight was followed by grimmer vigilantes and "heroes" killing, Killing Joke led to others pushing the boundaries of psychological horror. That is the fault of the publishers who put out the material, and outright encouraged it, and those who bought it, not Moore (as is amply covered by others).
I find Identity Crisis more egregious, as it retroactively rapes Sue Dibny, then brutally murders her, when she is pregnant, all purely for shock value. Her murder serves no purpose. A failed attack on a loved one of a JLA member could have just as easily set the story in motion: but, Brad Meltzer wanted to push things further and Dan Didio just lapped it up. Graphic violence within DC Comics rose as a result, with more gore and shock; but little craft.
Getting back to the original point, I don't think either "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" or "The Killing Joke" are the end-all, be-all of comics. I do think they are well crafted and tell more rounded stories than the norm, of the period. The Superman tale is very Silver Age, until the ante is upped and Superman faces a choice. It does what is intended, by bringing that concept of Superman to a close, by making him face reality beyond what had been the status quo. It was hardly original, as it shares many plot elements as the novel Superfolks, by Robert Meyer. They diverge, greatly; but, the basic premise is mostly the same, that the all powerful hero faces his greatest threat from an enemy who was treated as a comic nuisance and proves far more deadly than any other foe.
Killing Joke, for me, is far more effective in its use of the Joer than Dark Knight. Moore tries to bring you inside the head of a psychopath, while Miller mostly just awakens him and sets him loose, for one last go.. He did a better job with Harvey Dent, if you ask me.
Praise for Oracle belongs, mostly, with Kim Yale. She was the one who was most unhappy with the treatment of Barbara and she set out to make something good come out of it, collaborating with husband John Ostrander. She tends to get lost in discussions of their work; but, John is always forthright in crediting her for both the ideas and for her writing talent, which he felt blew his away. Far too often she was seen in his shadow, yet, she was a brilliant writer in her own right, and one heck of a person. I met her once and she was a ball of energetic fun and you couldn't feel down if she was around. John has told stories of her fight with cancer and they are heartbreaking; but, they are also inspiring, as she wouldn't let the cancer take her spirit. She infused that into Barbara Gordon, turning a negative into something far more positive. If only more people in comics imitated that.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 9, 2018 22:55:40 GMT -5
It was one thing to have that kind of extreme content in a super powered characters format with Watchmen, luckily not actually using the Charlton characters as originally intended, but to have gone even more explicit on Batgirl? "I really didn't care for Batgirl anyway." What the...? Really? That's your reaction? Or you mean looking back not at the time maybe? I don't have the book, I've heard a lot about it, maybe too much, but Dark Knight originally was supposed to be an unofficial future and marked for sale to adults only... (adult Batman, ooookay) what about Killing Joke? Was it at least not shown or sold to kids? Frank Miller might say oh no, throwing kids up again... well, these characters were created for kids originally, so get real. I've avoided ever seeing this stuff when I can avoid it, was it the one where Batgirl is pregnant in a wheelchair and shot graphically in the womb? I saw a splash page in a Comic Buyer's Guide like that once (reproduced fairly small) and it really made me shake my head and think who would want to be associated with that? Somewhere Wonder Woman ripping the cheetah's real tail/spine out of her body and beating her to death was mentioned... I don't know how to tell if any of this was 'real'. If it was even close I might be glad I quite buying comics much around 1986. Now I really admired Moore's Swamp Thing for a long run, and I am okay with Watchmen as the kind of most real you can maybe get with the super characters concept, I even think 1963 was a lot of fun... but Batgirl? You need to do a bunch of extreme things to Batgirl? For a bunch of sad collectors to file away as 'historically important' perhaps? Talk about breaking all your toys there little boys... and then they find out they want or have to bring them back over and over anyway. Look at Phoenix who kicked off the craze for killing or brutalizing superheroines (followed by what happened to Ms.Marvel in Avengers, Elektra, and Spider-Woman who I really liked when she was a San Francisco based detective with a Hawaiian boyfriend and a persian cat)... you couldn't get away from all the ways they exploited Phoenix in the first half of the '80s.
Just sad and lame sounding, maybe you can make me feel better about it but it sounds like the putting Supergirl's dead body on more than one DC covers in 1985 times about three. The combination of Batgirl and the things described, even sans rape, sounds really stupid.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 10, 2018 1:20:56 GMT -5
"Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and "The Killing Joke" are both grossly overrated pieces of schlock. Though I think "schlock" better describes Killing Joke than it does "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" both are pretty lousy stories. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Moore had written The Killing Joke for some other project, was offered a Batman Annual, and just renamed his characters 'Batman' and 'Joker' for the job. Since when is The Joker so maudlin, introspective, and boring? The same criminal genius whose schemes previously involved such tools as Joker Fish, Giant Birthday Cakes with his victims serving as the candles, Joker Utility Belts, his face carved into a mountain, has suddenly been reduced to knocking on peoples doors and shooting them in the spine? "Batman had a bad day and became Batman, therefore so too must The Joker have had a bad day and become The Joker" is supposed to be, what? Deep? Insightful? The Joker is supposed to represent evil in its purest form - he's an individual who takes pure unadulterated joy in harming others - where did Moore ever get the idea that he was a lost, little puppy crying out to be understood/to make a point? Again, cliched tripe. Oh, and "Insane = Evil" isn't deep or profound either, it's just, well, schlock. Artwork wise it's beautiful - Bolland did a magnificent job, but well drawn crap is still crap. "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" does have some nice moments - Moore's opening is an genuinely affecting piece of writing, for instance, as is "Supergirl… Supergirl is in the past, Kara" but Superman's rejection (in the form of Lois Lane's husband at the end) of who he was ("Aw, Superman was just a big headed egotist who thought da woild couldn't get ahead wit'out 'im") was a meanspirited way to bring The Silver/Bronze Age era to a close. And again, it's just bloodshed followed by more bloodshed - Bizarro killing innocent people ("They am scream with delight"), The Toyman and Prankster torturing and killing Pete Ross, the slaughter at The Fortress, Mxyzptlk's "true" form - is Moore actually capable of writing villains whose plans extend beyond 'Serial Killing 101: How to Kill Everyone in Sight'?
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 10, 2018 5:14:34 GMT -5
It was one thing to have that kind of extreme content in a super powered characters format with Watchmen, luckily not actually using the Charlton characters as originally intended, but to have gone even more explicit on Batgirl? "I really didn't care for Batgirl anyway." What the...? Really? That's your reaction? Or you mean looking back not at the time maybe? Well yes, of course that's my reaction -- both back in 1987 and now. I was never invested in the character of Batgirl, so I wasn't gonna get all out of bed about the crippling of a fictional character that I had no interest in. What happened to Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke worked in the context of the story and achieved its goal of showing us that the Joker was going further than he ever had before. And why shouldn't mainstream superhero comics be able to support more complex and adult themes? Arguably, they contained more adult subject matter back in the pre-code Golden Age than they did in the '60s and '70s. So, in some ways, the tendency towards more explicit violence and more adult themes that we saw in the late '80s and beyond was bringing the medium back closer to its Golden Age roots. Although, yes, many comics went far beyond Golden Age levels of graphic content, but you get my point. I don't have the book, I've heard a lot about it, maybe too much, but Dark Knight originally was supposed to be an unofficial future and marked for sale to adults only... (adult Batman, ooookay) what about Killing Joke? Was it at least not shown or sold to kids? The trade adverts for The Killing Joke that appeared in other DC comics at the time made it clear that it was for mature readers. I don't think there was anything stating that on the book cover itself, but I may be wrong about that. And yes, it was on sale in regular comic shops, but not on the newsstands, I don't believe. It was a prestige format book though, with heavy card cover and glossy pages inside. I've avoided ever seeing this stuff when I can avoid it, was it the one where Batgirl is pregnant in a wheelchair and shot graphically in the womb? I saw a splash page in a Comic Buyer's Guide like that once (reproduced fairly small) and it really made me shake my head and think who would want to be associated with that? No, that's completely wrong. Barbara Gordon was able-bodied at the time she was shot. She was hit in the mid-section and the bullet severed her spine, causing her to be paralysed. The Joker then undressed her and took photos of her naked, wounded body to use later as a mental torture device for Commisioner Gordon -- who he had abducted. There was nothing about her being shot in the womb, or being raped in the original story. Some readers took that inference, but none of that was explicit in Alan Moore's writing. Without wanting to sound facetious, if you've never read The Killing Joke, you maybe shouldn't opine so strongly about its shortcomings. It's one of those books that causes a lot of readers to exaggerate what happened in it and to made impassioned, but inaccurate statements about it. So, what you might hear about it online or in comic shops might not necessarily be very accurate. You really should read it. It's an excellently written comic and Brian Bolland's artwork is stunning.
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Post by rberman on Jul 10, 2018 5:44:15 GMT -5
"Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and "The Killing Joke" are both grossly overrated pieces of schlock. is Moore actually capable of writing villains whose plans extend beyond 'Serial Killing 101: How to Kill Everyone in Sight'? I trust you've read "V for Vendetta" and "Watchmen." See also Top Ten, being discussed here. Is Swamp Thing full of serial killers? Not that Moore doesn't frequently write vicious characters like Rorshach and "Killing Joker." But his range does extend beyond that.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 10, 2018 5:50:17 GMT -5
Yes, The Killing joke took things to another level in violence. Before that , comic fans were used to fake violence where people assault each other and there's no marks or real injuries. As for the Joker, he probably has the highest body count for a non powered person ever written in comics. Who said he never just shot people before this story ? They did a lot with this story and made Barbara a more interesting character that spun off into her own Birds of Prey series which lasted 127 issues plus the initial minis series. As Batgirl she never came close to having the type of popularity that she had then.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 10, 2018 9:16:49 GMT -5
Yes, The Killing joke took things to another level in violence. Before that , comic fans were used to fake violence where people assault each other and there's no marks or real injuries. As for the Joker, he probably has the highest body count for a non powered person ever written in comics. Who said he never just shot people before this story ? They did a lot with this story and made Barbara a more interesting character that spun off into her own Birds of Prey series which lasted 127 issues plus the initial minis series. As Batgirl she never came close to having the type of popularity that she had then. Any success Barbara Gordon had following Killing Joke was in spite of Alan Moore and not because of it. Later writers who came along and said "Wow, Barbara Gordon was treated horribly in Killing Joke so I think I'll try to save her" shouldn't mean Alan Moore gets credit for their work. "I'm going to make her a computer genius who helps people through her brains" is something which can arguably make her "a more interesting character". "I'm going to make her cannon fodder for The Joker since I need someone expendable" doesn't. Not sure what you mean about "fake violence" - The Joker killed a lot prior to this story, but in a unique manner. He also shot people, but during the midst of some wider plan. Killing Joke was just a sadist going around being a sadist and nothing more. If the high point of a story is how later writers came in and cleaned up your mess, then I don't your story is all that great.
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