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Post by berkley on Jul 1, 2020 16:34:11 GMT -5
My top Avengers artists: John Buscema, especially with George Klein inking Yes. Beautiful, powerful work. I do wonder how the book would have turned out if Perez remained on the Avengers after he "thinned out" the way he illustrated figures. At the time of their publication, I thought Windsor-Smith's work was a "different lane" taken, but over time, I found there was something appealing about it. Funny thing is, I knows some fans who cannot stand his work on the title.
Yeah, BWS, once he stopped trying to imitate Kirby, had a very unique look to his art and he didn't really compromise it for this Avengers story. It wasn't a traditional superhero look but I thought it worked really well, especially given the mythological angle to the story, with the Olympian gods (though I find the second part of the story itself annoying, with the Olympians predictably defeated, and rather easily at that, by the superheroes) . I would love to have seen BWS do some more Avengers, though - especially with my favourite Avengers writer, Englehart, whose run started not too long after this story, I believe.
I don't like the "thnned out" figures of Perez's 80s period so I wouldn't have enjoyed seeing him draw the Avengers during that time. I think he and also Jim Starlin each took a similar wrong turn in their artistic development sometime around the early 80s: the way I see it, the strength of their earlier style was that it was not trying too hard to be realistic. They were more in the tradition of stylised cartoonists like Ditko or Kirby, who created a visual world that work on its own terms.
But it seems to me that they each decided they wanted to be more like Neal Adams, leaner figures, more detailedbackgrounds, more individualised faces and expressions, generally more realistic. All that sounds great, and it is - for some artists. Not, IMO for Perez or Starlin, though.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 1, 2020 16:46:13 GMT -5
I mean, if we are talking about Buscema/Klein...
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 3, 2020 14:54:27 GMT -5
I mean, if we are talking about Buscema/Klein... Stunning as always.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 3, 2020 16:00:26 GMT -5
I mean, if we are talking about Buscema/Klein... Now THAT's inking!
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Post by berkley on Jul 3, 2020 22:07:52 GMT -5
I mean, if we are talking about Buscema/Klein... Now THAT's inking!
Perfect for the Avengers. I think I would likely still take Buscema/Chan at their peak for Conan, though, and certainly in the black and white mag Buscema/Alcala.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 3, 2020 22:10:51 GMT -5
I never liked Chan on John Buscema. I thought his inking fought against Big John's pencils. Loved those Buscema Alcala SSOC, even if John hated them.
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Post by berkley on Jul 4, 2020 0:47:38 GMT -5
I never liked Chan on John Buscema. I thought his inking fought against Big John's pencils. Loved those Buscema Alcala SSOC, even if John hated them. Agree about Alcala, though I can see why Buscema himself felt diffferently.
Would like to hear more detail about your feelings towards the Buscema/Chan combination: do you dislike all of it equally, or do you see differences over time - the early period, for example, when he was credited as Ernie Chua, looks much different to me to what I think is their peak, around the #70s. Also, who would you like to have seen instead? I thought Tom Palmer did some great work in his few issues - somewhat to my surprise, since I wouldn't necessarily have thought his style was a good match for Conan, much as I liked it elsewhere.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 4, 2020 5:13:10 GMT -5
It didn't appear the John Buscema was a trouble maker , he didn't call for Alcala to be fired or anything like that. Ot maybe the " hate" he expressed was after the fact, maybe something he said in interviews.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 4, 2020 6:31:15 GMT -5
I never liked Chan on John Buscema. I thought his inking fought against Big John's pencils. Perfectly put. It was if Chan was constricting the suppleness of Buscema’s graceful pencils.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 4, 2020 8:28:25 GMT -5
On Buscema/Alcala, it's pretty common knowledge he didn't like it, but I don't think he ever asked that Alcala not ink him on SSOC. Roy put that team together because he wanted the kind of finely rendered work Barry Smith did on Red Nails. The fans loved it and John was not one to complain. On Chan, Roy put Chan on Conan because he thought his more ornate style would "gingerbread" it up. Some "rococo flair" that would remind fans of Smith. I think Roy missed it here. Chan had a rougher style, and I think Buscema needs a smoother line. More little ink marks doesn't make it more ornate, in fact it can make it clunky. As Chan did with Buscema. I liked the first Buscema issue inked by his brother (a team I always liked, that some others don't). Buscema's work is very fluid, and Chan just made it feel less so. I can't find the last page of Conan#25 online, but the image is the same as the first page of #26. Too me it exemplifies the differences. Chan's work just loos overworked and stiffer. Now I don't want to make it sound like I just dislike Chan. I just didn't think his inks worked with Buscema on Conan. Best inker for Buscema on Conan? John Buscema
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jul 4, 2020 9:02:20 GMT -5
My top Avengers artists: John Buscema, especially with George Klein inking George Perez, mainly for that first run, from the #130s to the #160s or #170s Barry Windsor-Smith, for that 2-part story in #99-#100; only two issues but they're so good I can't leave him off my list. #141 was the first issue by Perez. The BWS story was a three-parter in #98-100.
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 4, 2020 9:39:24 GMT -5
I'm a Chan fan and agree with you about liking other inker's work his Big John's pencils, but I'm not seeing the grind of Chan's inks but eye of the beholder and all that.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 4, 2020 9:49:00 GMT -5
Absolutely a matter of taste.
And strangely, I kind of liked him on Sal.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 4, 2020 9:54:59 GMT -5
When we are done with this, I'd like to talk about Sal being a "hack". (I disagree strongly)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 4, 2020 9:56:15 GMT -5
Best inker for Buscema on Conan? John Buscema I agree, although I think a good case could also be made (on Conan, at least) for Neal Adams. He inked just a few issues, but they were really arresting.
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