|
Post by impulse on Dec 21, 2021 9:54:46 GMT -5
I did Fable in TPB. The first half of the series is an amazing and beautifully crafted work of art. The second half is someone keeping something going far beyond it's expiration date and milking it. You can pinpoint the moment they ran out of ideas, and the work would be better if they had just stopped halfway through. There I said it. I've been re-reading it recently (up to issue 19) and with current awareness of Willingham's political proclivities you can see where they come through in this work. I was not aware of his political views being known. I might look those up and reread it with that in mind to see if I interpret the story differently. I did Fable in TPB. The first half of the series is an amazing and beautifully crafted work of art. The second half is someone keeping something going far beyond it's expiration date and milking it. You can pinpoint the moment they ran out of ideas, and the work would be better if they had just stopped halfway through. There I said it. I wouldn't say the 2nd half is all milking it... The Good Prince is a decent followup, and 'Cubs in Toyland' is pretty awesome. I agree the Mr. Dark storyline is terrible, and alot of the other stuff was medicore, but it's not all bad. Perhaps I overstated. I don't necessarily think Willingham was cynically trying to wring pennies out of it's dry husk, but to me, it felt obvious he wanted to try and keep it going but just didn't have enough ideas left to do it in a satisfying way. The first half you can tell was painstakingly and crafted and thought out and planned and executed with tremendous attention to detail. The second half felt like mostly treading water and aimless meandering waiting for an idea to jump out and bite him. I wouldn't say it's all terrible, but nothing that came after the first half in my opinion touched the overall quality of the first half, and even the good bits don't outweigh the dreck. I still personally feel the overall Fables story and world and what have you is worse off for having the second half of the series. The sum total of Mr. Dark and beyond was a net negative IMO. Possible spoilers in case anyone hasn't read it, but I also found it needlessly depressing. It seemed he killed off characters for the sake of it, almost out of frustration for not knowing what else to do. That's just me interpreting, I know, and I don't need everything to have a rainbows and sunshine happy ending all the time, but it just felt spiteful to me.
Overall, it lessened my enjoyment of the series. I'd have rather he focused on the one-off side tales he did which were often breathtaking. I wouldn't say the 2nd half is all milking it... The Good Prince is a decent followup, and 'Cubs in Toyland' is pretty awesome. I agree the Mr. Dark storyline is terrible, and alot of the other stuff was medicore, but it's not all bad. Then, there's the tangentially related Jack of Fables series... which, aside from the often brilliant Bolland cover art, is very hit-or-miss.
Yeah, that series seemed to from good to absolutely horrible with no in-between. If I remember right, Great Fables Crossover was one of the most disappointing stories I've read in a long time.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 21, 2021 10:04:31 GMT -5
I never really warmed up to Jack.... It was fun having some of the American fables there, but I think it was mostly a miss.
I don't recall being annoying by any of the deaths... also keeping in mind they can't REALLY die.
I had no idea about Willingham's political views until they were mentioned here, and I took a look at his Twitter and there was very little there, so I still don't know much other then some 8-10 year articles. I can less about that sort of thing if it says out of his writing and he doesn't use his fame as a platform, which seems to be the case. (I didn't look TOO close, but nothing too obvious at least).
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 21, 2021 10:24:22 GMT -5
I've been re-reading it recently (up to issue 19) and with current awareness of Willingham's political proclivities you can see where they come through in this work. I was not aware of his political views being known. I might look those up and reread it with that in mind to see if I interpret the story differently. Let's just say it wouldn't have been terribly surprising to see him storming the Capitol on January 6th.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Dec 21, 2021 10:46:50 GMT -5
Yeah, in the original series, Jack came off as a lovable scamp, but all of the charm seemed to get lost in his own series. He was just an unlikable awful person. I agree it was mostly a miss.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 5:12:34 GMT -5
I can’t claim to have read many Spectre tales (near-omnipotent or omnipotent characters don’t really interest me), but of the ones I have read, they featured the Spectre appearing and then exterminating all kinds of scum. No mercy, just instant death for them.
In a shared universe, it does make you wonder why he doesn’t just do that to someone like the Joker.
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Dec 22, 2021 8:34:30 GMT -5
I did Fable in TPB. The first half of the series is an amazing and beautifully crafted work of art. The second half is someone keeping something going far beyond it's expiration date and milking it. You can pinpoint the moment they ran out of ideas, and the work would be better if they had just stopped halfway through. There I said it. Every couple of years, I try to do a re-read of Fables. Plow through the first 75 issues no problem, enjoy The Good Prince and Cubs in Toyland well enough, then lose all interest and never make it to the end, usually giving up either in Snow White or Camelot.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 9:16:48 GMT -5
I can’t claim to have read many Spectre tales (near-omnipotent or omnipotent characters don’t really interest me), but of the ones I have read, they featured the Spectre appearing and then exterminating all kinds of scum. No mercy, just instant death for them. In a shared universe, it does make you wonder why he doesn’t just do that to someone like the Joker. It brings up an interesting point, as the DC world of super-heroes back in the Golden Age wasn't initially a shared universe. Up until the first meeting of the JSA in All Star Comics #3, the individual heroes had never appeared together nor were there any references to suggest they occupied the same continuity. And the Spectre was one of those early heroes who appeared before this. So whereas Batman would never cross that line with the Joker, to your point, you would think the Spectre would have taken care of him long ago if the "Spirit of Vengeance" was required to do so. I guess my favorite "self-reference" writers use at times when heroes team up against a villain..."I thought he was one of yours". Like there's an unwritten code you don't swap adversaries unless the villain initiates it! But I did find a reference of this getting specifically explored in Spectre #51 from 1997. The Spectre actually does begin to initiate vengeance on the Joker, and Batman stops him arguing essentially the Joker doesn't have the ability to tell right from wrong (the nuance being the Spectre's vengeance only applies to people who consciously make the decision to sin). There's more to the story as the Spectre then enters the Joker's mind to learn more, but again, explores the question you raise.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 9:28:01 GMT -5
Sounds like a tale I should read. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Dec 22, 2021 13:10:28 GMT -5
Dick Giordano is often praised as a great editor and inker, but he doesn't get enough recognition as a first rate artist.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 13:51:46 GMT -5
Having browsed almost all of the covers that Atlas Comics put out between 1974 and 1975, I’m convinced that Atlas were doing “John Byrne before Byrne was Byrne”.
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Dec 22, 2021 14:53:57 GMT -5
Dick Giordano is often praised as a great editor and inker, but he doesn't get enough recognition as a first rate artist. He did great work since the 50s, usually in other genres besides superheroes.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 15:07:51 GMT -5
Dick Giordano is often praised as a great editor and inker, but he doesn't get enough recognition as a first rate artist. I remember as a kid thinking inkers must have the easiest jobs and just had to trace pencils. And then I eventually read how the good ones were often great pencilers as well, and I remember still thinking, why are they wasting their talents on inking then. And then I finally started to make the connection of finished art to pencils and now obviously have a whole different perspective. But still nice to see examples like this of the overall talent of Mr. Giordano in this case, I feel much the same when I see Bob Layton do pencils in addition to his normally outstanding inking.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 15:11:53 GMT -5
As a kid, I thought the same, supercat. I also imagined that comics was a factory-like environment where writers and artists sat together at tables, working at the same time, with an editor standing over them like a foreman.
|
|
|
Post by berkley2 on Dec 22, 2021 15:31:36 GMT -5
Dick Giordano is often praised as a great editor and inker, but he doesn't get enough recognition as a first rate artist. I remember as a kid thinking inkers must have the easiest jobs and just had to trace pencils. And then I eventually read how the good ones were often great pencilers as well, and I remember still thinking, why are they wasting their talents on inking then. And then I finally started to make the connection of finished art to pencils and now obviously have a whole different perspective. But still nice to see examples like this of the overall talent of Mr. Giordano in this case, I feel much the same when I see Bob Layton do pencils in addition to his normally outstanding inking. Dan Adkins is one of my favourite inkers but I would much rather have seen more pencil work from him. Same with Pablo Marcos and others. And don't get mestarted on Al Williamson and the years he wasted (from my fanperspective) inking tbe pencils of lesser artists (no disrespect intended - pretty much everyone else is alesser artist to my eyes).
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Dec 22, 2021 15:58:44 GMT -5
I remember as a kid thinking inkers must have the easiest jobs and just had to trace pencils. And then I eventually read how the good ones were often great pencilers as well, and I remember still thinking, why are they wasting their talents on inking then. And then I finally started to make the connection of finished art to pencils and now obviously have a whole different perspective. But still nice to see examples like this of the overall talent of Mr. Giordano in this case, I feel much the same when I see Bob Layton do pencils in addition to his normally outstanding inking. Dan Adkins is one of my favourite inkers but I would much rather have seen more pencil work from him. Same with Pablo Marcos and others. And don't get mestarted on Al Williamson and the years he wasted (from my fanperspective) inking tbe pencils of lesser artists (no disrespect intended - pretty much everyone else is alesser artist to my eyes). I think by the 80s, coming off of Secret Agent Corrigan, Williamson wanted to take it easy a bit, but when asked to autograph those original pages, he always signed them "Inks by Al Williamson." He could still hit it out of the park on his own projects, though like the Flash Gordon he did for Marvel.
I like Adkins as an inker too; as a penciller, he has a notorious rep as a swiper.
The inker's job was pretty challenging--last in line in the process, so if things are already late, they had to make up the time. Depending on the penciller, a hundred decisions to make on every page. A lot harder to correct mistakes. Knowing how to use the tools is just the first step.
Also, the inker's work is what reader's actually see.
|
|