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Post by The Captain on Apr 5, 2022 12:50:05 GMT -5
Basically, Marvel since the 2000's... scramble up characters' powers, identities, etc. OR just outright kill them. Or both. At any rate, just make sure that when someone accidentally stumbles into the comics store, looking for the characters they sorta know, it's as confusing as possible. It's not confusing at all, if you've actually been reading comics since the 2000's. I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 5, 2022 12:56:37 GMT -5
It's not confusing at all, if you've actually been reading comics since the 2000's. I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. Maybe. But maybe it's not. I would need to hear from a good cross-section of "new fans" to determine if it's actually a problem or if it's just a perceived problem that isn't really a problem. I heard a LOT that people couldn't understand DC's multiple Earths, but I've never come across an actual person who was confused (except maybe a few DC writers). We're also presuming that people who watch the movies actually have an interest in reading the comics and history tends to lead to the conclusion that mostly they don't. The corollary to this would be Marvel making the comics more like the movies at which point you can guarantee the attack of the "real fans" that don't want things changed to reflect what is happening on screen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2022 14:44:52 GMT -5
It's not confusing at all, if you've actually been reading comics since the 2000's. I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. To be fair, a fan of the MCU who went to buy comics and got a lot of Silver or Bronze Age storylines (or trades of that stuff now) would be confused too. Who's Mike Murdoch? Why is there two Spider-Mans running around, one is a clone wha? Why are there 4 people claiming to be Superman and none of them are Clark Kent? Why is Batman wearing armor and not Bruce Wayne? Why is someone besides Steve Rogers Captain America and who is The Captain? Or Nomad? Why is Tony Stark a teen-ager? Why is some guy that looks like a goat wielding Mjolnir? Why is the Hulk gray and calling himself Joe? etc. etc. There's the weird nonsense you are used to because it happened on "your watch" and you accept without issue, then there's the weird nonsense that you are not used to because it happened on "someone else's watch that people criticize. But an objective observer would level the same criticisms to the stuff you are used to and liked. But bias, nostalgia lenses, and neophobia being what they are, no one ever wants to see it that way. -M
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Post by tonebone on Apr 5, 2022 15:14:06 GMT -5
Basically, Marvel since the 2000's... scramble up characters' powers, identities, etc. OR just outright kill them. Or both. At any rate, just make sure that when someone accidentally stumbles into the comics store, looking for the characters they sorta know, it's as confusing as possible. It's not confusing at all, if you've actually been reading comics since the 2000's. But I would imagine very confusing if you only know the characters from the greater pop culture world, such as movies, tv, licensing, etc. If you were a fan of the Iron Man movies, you go into the comics store, and find Ri Ri Williams, Tony Stark is dead, etc. These kinds of stunts are littered throughout the history of comics, but it seems that in the past 2 decades, it's ALL stunts, and the characters are, at best, secondary to the quest for the temporary boost in sales. It's a major reason why there ARE NO new readers. Jim Shooter's adage that "Every issue is someone's first issue" has been thrown out the window. And, if there ARE new readers, they are not gained at a pace that is keeping up with losing readers.
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Post by tonebone on Apr 5, 2022 15:22:05 GMT -5
It's not confusing at all, if you've actually been reading comics since the 2000's. I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. Exactly... As I said, I've been reading comics for 50 years, and I HATE going into my local comics shop. I just see a wall of something I no longer understand. I no longer recognize the characters, and I couldn't possibly keep up with the numbering restarting every 3 weeks. I read classic comics every day, and buy collections all the time, but it makes me sad that I have no interest in anything on that wall of new releases, and haven't had an interest for at least a decade. AND I WISH I DID. That being said, I keep up with comics news, and I "know what's going on", generally, but still am still out of the loop. Imagine how a normie feels.
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 5, 2022 16:23:41 GMT -5
It's not confusing at all, if you've actually been reading comics since the 2000's. I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. So you think comics should limit the kinds of stories they tell in order to be new reader friendly? To appeal to moviegoers? I don't. That sounds to me like a surefire way of killing innovative storytelling. And that's what I care about, it's what's kept me reading. I also think you're underestimating newer readers.
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 5, 2022 16:32:45 GMT -5
I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. To be fair, a fan of the MCU who went to buy comics and got a lot of Silver or Bronze Age storylines (or trades of that stuff now) would be confused too. Who's Mike Murdoch? Why is there two Spider-Mans running around, one is a clone wha? Why are there 4 people claiming to be Superman and none of them are Clark Kent? Why is Batman wearing armor and not Bruce Wayne? Why is someone besides Steve Rogers Captain America and who is The Captain? Or Nomad? Why is Tony Stark a teen-ager? Why is some guy that looks like a goat wielding Mjolnir? Why is the Hulk gray and calling himself Joe? etc. etc. There's the weird nonsense you are used to because it happened on "your watch" and you accept without issue, then there's the weird nonsense that you are not used to because it happened on "someone else's watch that people criticize. But an objective observer would level the same criticisms to the stuff you are used to and liked. But bias, nostalgia lenses, and neophobia being what they are, no one ever wants to see it that way. -M Absolutely right! I see this attitude all the time, from older fans. Particularly those who don't actually read new comics (it's particularly prevalent on Facebook). The same "fans" who'll gush nostalgiacally about how great it was when Marvel were coming up with stuff like the Living Eraser or the Impossible Man fifty-odd years ago scowl and snarl "ridiculous garbage" at far less silly notions today. It's infuriating. In the mid seventies, we had three different versions of Reed Richards running around; "our" Reed, a Reed who was the Thing from another universe, and an evil Reed from Counter Earth. Nobody was confused. Why are two or three Captain America's somehow worse?
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 5, 2022 16:36:37 GMT -5
I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. Exactly... As I said, I've been reading comics for 50 years, and I HATE going into my local comics shop. I just see a wall of something I no longer understand. I no longer recognize the characters, and I couldn't possibly keep up with the numbering restarting every 3 weeks. I read classic comics every day, and buy collections all the time, but it makes me sad that I have no interest in anything on that wall of new releases, and haven't had an interest for at least a decade. AND I WISH I DID. That being said, I keep up with comics news, and I "know what's going on", generally, but still am still out of the loop. Imagine how a normie feels. I've been reading comics for close to fifty years. I still buy, read and enjoy upwards of forty new titles per month. I understand them perfectly and have no trouble keeping up. I also have no trouble recognising the characters. Maybe the problem isn't the comics but your preconceived notions of what they should be like.
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Post by berkley on Apr 5, 2022 17:08:00 GMT -5
Just have to get this off my chest... Keith Pollard is criminally underrated. He nails that classic Bronze Age smooth heroic illustration for me and had great runs on some of my favorite titles as a kid. And he constantly gets ignored or "he was OK but.." I will take his art over at least 95% of what was to come later. There, I said it. As a kid, he was my favorite bronze age Fantastic Four artist... I really thought he would have been a household name, but he never was. Super underrated.
I think he was one of those guys whose style and individuality only really came out when he inked himself, as seen on many of his covers compared to the interior work in some of those same comics. When inked by others, it could look a little generic at times - but then, so could John Buscema.
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Post by berkley on Apr 5, 2022 17:11:26 GMT -5
Some homage (virgin) covers are just that good...shout out to Hulk 181....
I'd like it more if the Hulk was scaled down to around where he was on that Hulk #181 cover. I didn't look it up to make sure, but my memory is that the Hulk and Wolverine were closer in size, though the Hulk was still much bigger.
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Post by commond on Apr 5, 2022 17:37:14 GMT -5
I didn't mean to start any arguments. I haven't read the Clone Saga, so I didn't know Osborn returned in the 90s. The first part of Brubaker's Captain America run is somewhat self-contained, with the same core group of characters, but now that Bucky is part of the Avengers, it's opened the story up to the wider Marvel Universe. Hence, my confusion.
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Post by tonebone on Apr 5, 2022 18:42:44 GMT -5
Exactly... As I said, I've been reading comics for 50 years, and I HATE going into my local comics shop. I just see a wall of something I no longer understand. I no longer recognize the characters, and I couldn't possibly keep up with the numbering restarting every 3 weeks. I read classic comics every day, and buy collections all the time, but it makes me sad that I have no interest in anything on that wall of new releases, and haven't had an interest for at least a decade. AND I WISH I DID. That being said, I keep up with comics news, and I "know what's going on", generally, but still am still out of the loop. Imagine how a normie feels. I've been reading comics for close to fifty years. I still buy, read and enjoy upwards of forty new titles per month. I understand them perfectly and have no trouble keeping up. I also have no trouble recognising the characters. Maybe the problem isn't the comics but your preconceived notions of what they should be like. You mean "good"? I wouldn't even pirate what DC and Marvel publish these days. But hey, that's just me. If you enjoy them, I envy you. I wish I wanted to drop hundreds per month on them. I really do.
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Post by tonebone on Apr 5, 2022 18:44:54 GMT -5
I just started Captain America: Reborn, and there's something called the Dark Avengers. Norman Osborn is alive again and wearing some sort of Iron Man outfit. Bullseye is wearing Hawkeye's costume. Hank Pym is the Wasp. My head is reeling. Uh, Norman Osborn has been alive again since about 1995... Ha Ha... "alive again"... a concept only found in the funnybooks!
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Post by Trevor on Apr 5, 2022 18:50:35 GMT -5
I’ve been reading and loving comics since 1971ish. And was buying and loving the 40s-60s stuff as soon as I discovered it. Still love the old and read it near daily.
But the new stuff is much better imho. Well, except in the cost/time of reading equations….
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Post by tonebone on Apr 5, 2022 19:20:08 GMT -5
I think that is his point. IF you’ve been reading comics for 20+ years, it isn’t confusing, but for someone who came to comics later, maybe due to liking the MCU, it isn’t quite as easy. Take Iron Man, for example. You had Tony as a person, Tony as an AI, Riri Williams, and now Tony as a person again, all serving as that character. What about Cap? Is it good Steve before “dying”, Bucky, good Steve again, evil Hydra Steve, good Steve again, Sam, or Steve and Sam at the same time? For you and me, probably not an issue to keep up, but if I were a new fan coming into this monumental fudge-up, I’d walk out of the comic shop and go find something easier to follow. So you think comics should limit the kinds of stories they tell in order to be new reader friendly? To appeal to moviegoers? I don't. That sounds to me like a surefire way of killing innovative storytelling. And that's what I care about, it's what's kept me reading. I also think you're underestimating newer readers. Yes. They should limit the kinds of stories they tell. Good ones. No more staring down a deadline and the only things you can think of are ruining the character. He's dead! He's evil! He's gone! He's replaced! He's unmasked! Yes, they have been doing this stuff forever, but now it's ALL they do. Marvel and DC jump from one character-breaking event to another, just for a short sales bump, and expect people to still care about them. I don't. Look at people like Kurt Busiek... look how many good, really good, Astro City stories he's told without resorting to any of these character-breaking stunts. Look at his Untold Tales of Spider-Man. I mean, the man wrote stories BETWEEN Stan and Steve's stories and they are STILL good. Look at Wolfman and Perez's original run on Teen Titans... complex, rich, exciting stories, that didn't break characters, but built them up until you knew them. They built a whole new world of characters and situations. Are they dated? Well, yeah, 40 years on, they are a little... but still good. Tom King's Batman will not only be dated 40 years from now, but will be terrible to boot. Should they appeal to moviegoers? HELL YES. They should be AT THE VERY LEAST accessible and recognizable to movie goers. When I went to see X-Men 2, everyone in line got an X-men comic. It was the worst piece of crap I had ever seen... It only featured Wolverine, not in costume, and was part 2 of a 3 or more part story. It made no sense, and had absolutely zero resemblance or relationship to the movie. The trash cans were stuffed with them. Marvel does no better capitalizing on their movies, now, even though the Marvel movies are the most valuable IP in the world. It is estimated that 54 percent of all adults in America, 18-34, have seen one or more of the Avengers-related movies. 54 percent!!! Why would you NOT want to take advantage of that? You LITERALLY could not buy that kind of PR. But you sure can squander it.
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