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Post by kirby101 on Apr 11, 2022 15:58:18 GMT -5
Everything now isn't as good as when I was young. Especially the knees! Boy! you ain't kidding!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 16:51:20 GMT -5
except for the significant amount of independent creators who draw customers (and thus income) to their independently made and distributed content who will either have to now pay for marketing (thus making it much harder to operate independently) or lose access to the market unless another viable free marketing via social media tool arises in its place. There's a lot of bad with twitter (and social media in general) to be sure, but it's a matter of how its used and thus the character of the people using it that defines how good or bad it is. Even if twitter brings out the worst in people, it was already in the people to be brought out, and any outlet that allowed it to come forward would net the same result because the fault is in the people using it not the medium itself. Social media is like a mirror. If you don't like what you see in it, it's not what's in the mirror that's the problem, it's what's looking into the mirror. -M Not to disagree with your larger point that it's the user and not the tool, but I don't think the analogy of social media and Twitter specifically as a mirror is accurate. Yes, it can do that, but it also makes it famously easy to spread misinformation and to whip people up into a frenzy. It's not just reflecting what is there, but it is also poisoning the well in the process and making it worse. Or least, that is also possible and is also happening a lot. It's not necessarily mandatory. It's also easy to use to spread real and accurate information and disseminate that real and accurate information faster and farther than other means available. But again, Twitter is not full of false information because it is Twitter. It is full of false information because the users fill it with false information. Users also fill it with accurate information. Again it's not the mediums fault, it's how its used and the people using it. To your analogy Twitter is the well. It is not the poison. The people using it are putting the poison in. -M
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Post by impulse on Apr 11, 2022 16:59:30 GMT -5
Makes for a less useful well, though, doesn't it, without someone guarding the well to keep the poisoners away?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 17:57:45 GMT -5
Makes for a less useful well, though, doesn't it, without someone guarding the well to keep the poisoners away? Communities have lived in fear of wells being poisoned for time immemorial. Demonizing those they fear as plotting to poison the well is just as old (large portions of historic anti-Semitism involves screeds that the Jews were plotting to poison the wells of the communities they emigrated to). It's never been the well's fault. It's always about the hatred and suspicion held in the hearts of some of the community that uses the well. -M
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Post by badwolf on Apr 11, 2022 18:10:42 GMT -5
I think it's the very nature of the Twitter medium that brings out the nastiness in people. A well isn't a very good comparison IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 18:39:06 GMT -5
I think it's the very nature of the Twitter medium that brings out the nastiness in people. A well isn't a very good comparison IMO. How is the nastiness of Twitter worse than the nastiness on FB or youtube comments, or forums or any other social media where people can speak their mind with a feeling of anonymity or lack of consequence? It's what's in their mind and their belief there will be no consequence to their words or actions that is the issue/ That's not unique to Twitter. It happens whenever those two things become available to any kind of "mob" throughout the history of humanity. Sure Twitter makes it easier, but the behavior pattern existed before Twitter and will continue to exist long after Twitter has passed out of living memory. Blaming Twitter for people's behavior is simply buck-passing and giving the people who are the problem a pass. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 11, 2022 18:55:59 GMT -5
No one will miss Twitter. Do people really use Twitter for anything besides watching train wrecks though? (I'm really asking, this forum and Goodreads are the closest I come to social media). I hear what MRP is saying, I've looked up creators of indy books before and ended up at their twitter pages, but there's also stuff like Deviant art, and many have their own sites anyway. Also, It's not going anywhere until the next craze appears to replace it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 19:08:55 GMT -5
Twitter, like a lot of other social media, is easily addictive, and addictions often get out of control fast. It's not the inherent capabilities that are bad, it's the moral hazard they present to many a person who cannot exercise restraint. You can postulate all you want that people "should" be able to, but our human chemistry simply isn't up to the task en masse. There are some frailties of human existence, whether we try to deny them or not. And because in this case many continue to feed that addiction in the moment without much real concern of consequences, it often falls into unabated rage and discord.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 11, 2022 19:27:12 GMT -5
I don’t know if its the same as it was at its inception but when a site minimizes a poster character count to such a low amount than that just encourages non thought out knee jerk $hitpost reactions which stirs the pot and the ensuing drama which is sure to attract attention and produce traffic; which is what twitter wants to make revenue.
It seems that’s the only distinction, to me, from any other social media platform. Otherwise I agree with MRP; its the constituents not the platform in of itself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 4:56:17 GMT -5
For me, Twitter is about the visual aspects. I love seeing the pics that are shared by the likes of MLB Europe, my local fire brigade, a volcanologist I follow, museums, etc. That’s all I care about. I don’t follow any politicians, not any news sites. And I have a locked account because I’ve come across too many farts who think it’s their God-given right to insult you if you dare to have a different opinion on a comic, sport, etc.
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Post by impulse on Apr 12, 2022 9:58:24 GMT -5
In the general sense, of course individual responsibility is paramount, but it's inaccurate to handwave the way social media at least to an extent has some inherently toxicity. There are studies out there showing the link between too much social media and anxiety and depression. Doom scrolling is a thing. The dopamine hit and outrage/scandal "news" cycle loop is a doozy with the algorithms bombarding people with more and more. I'm not saying people can't help being the way they are, but social media isn't as neutral as some folks may want it to be.
I agree, the well analogy isn't great. Let's use the postal service. A more analog communication system. The post office is neutral, sure, but they still don't let people mail poison to other people. Some amount of protection of the system is necessary because humans gonna human.
The scale and ease of connection via social media and Twitter has many positives. If only they could keep out the sludge.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 10:43:34 GMT -5
In the general sense, of course individual responsibility is paramount, but it's inaccurate to handwave the way social media at least to an extent has some inherently toxicity. There are studies out there showing the link between too much social media and anxiety and depression. Doom scrolling is a thing. The dopamine hit and outrage/scandal "news" cycle loop is a doozy with the algorithms bombarding people with more and more. I'm not saying people can't help being the way they are, but social media isn't as neutral as some folks may want it to be. I agree, the well analogy isn't great. Let's use the postal service. A more analog communication system. The post office is neutral, sure, but they still don't let people mail poison to other people. Some amount of protection of the system is necessary because humans gonna human. The scale and ease of connection via social media and Twitter has many positives. If only they could keep out the sludge. I won't deny that things like Twitter enable bad behavior. But they are not the cause of it and eliminating them and regulating them won't eliminate the bad behavior. Things like cancel culture (the Hollywood Black list) and promoting fear and hysteria against imagined threats (the Red Scare of the 20s and 50s) existed in our culture long before the advent of social media. Social media can act as an amplifier for sure, but what i amplifies in entirely the responsibility of the people feeding things into the amplifier. So if the behavior existed before Twitter and social media, and it happens without Twitter and social media (and is likely to continue long after Twitter and social media are no longer part of the equation) how exactly are Twitter and Social media to blame for such behavior? It's a craftsmen blaming his tools for shoddy work and bad habits. So yes, Twitter may amplify already existing bad behaviors, but such behaviors are not Twitter's fault. Such behaviors existed on a mass scale before the amplifier as well. But if we are going to blame tools and eliminate them because people use them poorly, let's get rid of all technology as well then. The internet has hug potential for good but it's filled with porn, scams, misinformation, and pet videos. I mean people could have used it to learn about the Red Scare and how people act when certain bad actors sew misinformation and sew distrust by blaming a particular group as a scapegoat for everything that ails society in an age before social media, or about pogroms and directed programs of harassment, bullying, and violence against certain groups. But they didn't, so it must be the internets fault. Of course they could have used books to do the same, but they didn't, so it must be books fault for not making them behave properly when using it. And the books should have had protections built in so people don't misuse them because they have the potential to be misused. Film, television, radio, the telephone, all had potential to do great good but also to be misused, which they were to spread false information, lies, fraud, etc. So they are all at fault as well and should disappear right? No. See there's one common factor in all of those things. The people using the tools. People are going to do what they want to do whether it is good or bad. And one of the most amazing things about people, the thing that separates them form just about every other species on earth, is that they are amazing tool makers. It's what has driven society since its inception. And if they want to do something they will make a tool to do it. And if you take away one tool trying to stop them, they will develop another, and another, and another. You cannot change behavior by taking tools away. You have to find a way to get the actual people to change. And that's hard. But blaming tools, that's easy. And ultimately completely ineffectual and a waste of time. -M
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 11:02:23 GMT -5
I agree, the well analogy isn't great. Let's use the postal service. A more analog communication system. The post office is neutral, sure, but they still don't let people mail poison to other people. Some amount of protection of the system is necessary because humans gonna human. I know what you mean. I’ve had vermin trash try to berate me on social media. One person called me a disabled slur because I had the ‘audacity’ to express a view on boxing’s world championships. I’ve seen the worst trash on social media. The Mos Easley Cantina is a paradise compared to Twitter and Facebook. Now I have a locked account, and I just enjoy tweets/pics from volcanologists, fire brigades, artists, etc. With the postal service, in the pre-internet age, such a hive of scum and villainy would have had to make the effort, presuming they had a brain, to write a nasty letter, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and find a post box. I suspect most nasty dolts didn’t bother, but today it’s so easy to just log on to Twitter - a platform known for allowing certain bad behaviour to go unanswered - and just send a nasty message.
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Post by impulse on Apr 12, 2022 11:04:36 GMT -5
But we regulate and restrict access to and what can and can't be done on other tools ALL the time. Collectively throwing our hands up in the air and going "Oh well, it's those damn individuals, nothing we can do" is ridiculous. It's up to individuals not to get drunk and drive their cars, but it's still illegal. There are systems in place to stop people doing this, pull them over, get them off the road, and if they keep acting that way, they lose the right to drive.
And social medial is not just an amplifier. It can increase what is there and make it worse. It really is like poison in that way, or like a cancer. No one here is saying to literally shut down Twitter and it's silly to imply anyone is, but it would be a lot better if there was a way to keep the poison out so the tool can be used properly.
One thing the entirety of human history has shown without fail is that humans need enough rules and enforcement to keep themselves honest, and social media is no different.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2022 11:20:42 GMT -5
But we regulate and restrict access to and what can and can't be done on other tools ALL the time. Collectively throwing our hands up in the air and going "Oh well, it's those damn individuals, nothing we can do" is ridiculous. It's up to individuals not to get drunk and drive their cars, but it's still illegal. There are systems in place to stop people doing this, pull them over, get them off the road, and if they keep acting that way, they lose the right to drive. And social medial is not just an amplifier. It can increase what is there and make it worse. It really is like poison in that way, or like a cancer. No one here is saying to literally shut down Twitter and it's silly to imply anyone is, but it would be a lot better if there was a way to keep the poison out so the tool can be used properly. One thing the entirety of human history has shown without fail is that humans need enough rules and enforcement to keep themselves honest, and social media is no different. There are laws that do regulate social media. Fraud, slander/libel laws all apply. You have legal recourse to what is said on social media, if you have the money and can afford to pursue it. And a lot of the regulations for other tools only lead to fined and financial penalties. And if that is the only deterrent, that means even though there are laws and regulations against them, they are essentially legal for a price. As long as you are willing and able to pay the fines and penalties, you are free to commit those behaviors. So those regulations are not really a deterrent that is going to prevent those who want to do something and can afford to do so from continuing to do it. And if someone loses the right to drive but has the money to pay a driver so it doesn't impact their ability to get where they want to go, it's only a deterrent to those who cannot afford to do so, or who cannot afford the fines that come with driving without a license. And the fact there are people with multiple DUI convictions indicate it is not much of a deterrent anyways. I am not throwing my hands up and saying we should do nothing. I am saying blaming the tools and trying to change behavior by taking the tools away is the wrong thing to do. It serves no purpose but to punish those who do not have the means to circumvent the consequences and does nothing to change the behavior. If you want to change the behavior, you need to find different methods of trying to accomplish that. If you are trying to effect change, and keep doing the same thing and keep getting the same output that doesn't effect the change, it's either insanity or stupidity to keep doing that thing. Try something different. Find a way that actually accomplishes something. But that means taking the hard route instead of the easy way of scapegoating something ineffectual simply so you can feel better about yourself that at least you tired something (even when it accomplishes nothing, especially when it accomplished nothing). Effecting change is hard. It requires long term effort, dedication and sacrifice. Things people don't want to do. It's much easier to point fingers at something and blame it instead. -M
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