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Post by EdoBosnar on May 29, 2022 5:08:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to agree about Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme series: I think it's a really outstanding story, and mostly underrated. Personally, I still think Watchmen is better for any number of reasons, but I do like Squadron better than DKR (of which I've always had a slightly lower opinion and think is overrated given the frequency of its appearance on 'best-ever Batman stories' lists). There are, though, a number of people who share your opinion about how it stacks up against the two big, 'must-read' series of the 1980s ( here's a recentish example). And I've noticed that you can find any number of posts from the last ten or so years at least that provide thoughtful and well-reasoned comparisons (again, here's a fairly recent example from 13th Dimension blog). And the relative merits of the two tend to get debated - on and off and with greater or lesser levels of thoughtfulness and acrimony - at forums similar to this one. I think the one at Byrne Robotics from 2009 is example of the worse kind, in which the various contributors soon begin insulting various creators or each other (and then eventually stray off the main subject). I'm sure you can find more intelligent discussions at the Comics Round Table.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 29, 2022 6:50:07 GMT -5
I agree about the Squadron Supreme series. The only thing maybe preventing it from the acclaim that iit deserves is the artist changes and maybe the lesser known characters.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 6:54:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to agree about Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme series: I think it's a really outstanding story, and mostly underrated. Personally, I still think Watchmen is better for any number of reasons, but I do like Squadron better than DKR (of which I've always had a slightly lower opinion and think is overrated given the frequency of its appearance on 'best-ever Batman stories' lists). There are, though, a number of people who share your opinion about how it stacks up against the two big, 'must-read' series of the 1980s ( here's a recentish example). And I've noticed that you can find any number of posts from the last ten or so years at least that provide thoughtful and well-reasoned comparisons (again, here's a fairly recent example from 13th Dimension blog). And the relative merits of the two tend to get debated - on and off and with greater or lesser levels of thoughtfulness and acrimony - at forums similar to this one. I think the one at Byrne Robotics from 2009 is example of the worse kind, in which the various contributors soon begin insulting various creators or each other (and then eventually stray off the main subject). I'm sure you can find more intelligent discussions at the Comics Round Table. Thank you for highlighting some prior discussions on this...I'm exceedingly late to the party on this observation and look forward to reading these! Another thing that really jumped out to me reading this series here in 2022...it feels as relevant as ever and many times I found myself reflecting on how much I could connect current society issues with it. Watchmen (which I too consider much better than DKR) is still a masterpiece to me, but it also feels somewhat like a product of its times. Which is not a bad thing, but I've pondered at times if the Cold War, Vietnam, etc. elements resonate as strongly after all these years (though sadly in recent months given the global events in the news one could argue these are becoming renewed themes). From a pure storytelling standpoint though, I have to say Moore was of course a genius and I'd still have to give Watchmen the nod in terms of things like the classic Adrian line at the end.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 6:57:18 GMT -5
I agree about the Squadron Supreme series. The only thing maybe preventing it from the acclaim that iit deserves is the artist changes and maybe the lesser known characters. I agree on the art, I actually wish John Buscema had done the whole series instead of the one issue.
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Post by Cei-U! on May 29, 2022 8:30:01 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting. I thought Squadron Supreme was mediocre at best. Comparing it to Watchman is like comparing an episode of Lost in Space to 2001 A Space Odyssey (in my opinion, natch). But differing viewpoints is what makes this place so much fun, right?
Cei-U! I summon the fresh perspective!
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Post by Icctrombone on May 29, 2022 8:57:58 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting. I thought Squadron Supreme was mediocre at best. Comparing it to Watchman is like comparing an episode of Lost in Space to 2001 A Space Odyssey (in my opinion, natch). But differing viewpoints is what makes this place so much fun, right? Cei-U! I summon the fresh perspective! There’s no comparison but it has many of the same themes of super people abusing their power.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 9:21:45 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting. I thought Squadron Supreme was mediocre at best. Comparing it to Watchman is like comparing an episode of Lost in Space to 2001 A Space Odyssey (in my opinion, natch). But differing viewpoints is what makes this place so much fun, right? Cei-U! I summon the fresh perspective! Absolutely agree on differing viewpoints, so comment fully appreciated in that context! But no, I was emotionally "invested" in the story yesterday like at a Watchmen level (and was not expecting that going into it!) Profound questions on self-will, the state of humandkind, control of weapons, betrayals, unexpected alliances...with none of the "window dressing" of supposedly mature/edgy comics. Deaths and other tragedies that actually had some gravity as well. Think about what happens to Nuke, to his parents, ultimately to himself. Think about what happens to Lady Lark and the ethical repercussions, and the dissent in the ranks that follow. Think about some of the "redeemed" Institute of Evil members who actually ended up liking what happened despite the ethical circumstances. And on and on. Felt a little heavier than Lost in Space to me, but likewise, "in my opinion" of course! It's an emotional ride, and NOT conveniently all wrapped up at the end. Stuff has consequences. Dang, I sound like a fired up fanboy! What can I say, I absolutely loved it!!
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Post by Cei-U! on May 29, 2022 9:31:06 GMT -5
Well, 'cat, since I also own the TPB, I can't have had *too* negative an impression of it.
Cei-U! I send the mixed signals!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 9:37:38 GMT -5
Well, 'cat, since I also own the TPB, I can't have had *too* negative an impression of it. Cei-U! I send the mixed signals! All good man! Like you said, the differing viewpoints make this place fun Cei-U! - edit to my original post, I wanted to mention I actually had to smile when you mentioned Lost in Space. By coincidence, I just picked up the complete series on DVD a week ago and have been binge watching (hadn't watched it since I was a kid). While on one hand I had responded I thought Squadron Supreme had more substance than that, on the other hand I have to admit with several classic episodes fresh on my mind, the comparison was not entirely lost on me (no pun intended)!
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Post by Batflunkie on May 29, 2022 9:59:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to agree about Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme series: I think it's a really outstanding story, and mostly underrated. Personally, I still think Watchmen is better for any number of reasons, but I do like Squadron better than DKR (of which I've always had a slightly lower opinion and think is overrated given the frequency of its appearance on 'best-ever Batman stories' lists). There are, though, a number of people who share your opinion about how it stacks up against the two big, 'must-read' series of the 1980s ( here's a recentish example). And I've noticed that you can find any number of posts from the last ten or so years at least that provide thoughtful and well-reasoned comparisons (again, here's a fairly recent example from 13th Dimension blog). And the relative merits of the two tend to get debated - on and off and with greater or lesser levels of thoughtfulness and acrimony - at forums similar to this one. I think the one at Byrne Robotics from 2009 is example of the worse kind, in which the various contributors soon begin insulting various creators or each other (and then eventually stray off the main subject). I'm sure you can find more intelligent discussions at the Comics Round Table. IDK, I'm more partial to Rick Veitch's The One than I am Watchmen
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Post by codystarbuck on May 29, 2022 10:30:37 GMT -5
Well, I did a whole review thread on Squadron Supreme; but, I still feel that the concept behind the maxi-series was better than the overall execution. I thought it got pretty shaky in sections and a bit melodramatic at times. I do think it had far more depth than most of what Marvel was doing, at the time. Straczynski's later Supreme Power started out well and then just ground to a halt, both from JMS being distracted by Hollywood work and I got the feeling that he had written himself into a corner and didn't know where to go with it. He had telegraphed a few things; but, I'm not sure he had linked the ideas completely, in his planning. It was a mistake to continue without him and it ended up taken in a rather muddled detour.
With the Watchman and Dark Knight, I felt there was a more mature approach to it, while Gruenwald was a bit trapped in traditional comic book writing.
Veitch is one where the more "underground" nature of his art tends to work against his narrative, for me. I had all of the King Hell Heroica; but, I'd rather read Watchmen or even Marshal Law or New Statesmen. Bratpack was the one I felt was the strongest, until the muddled ending and I still didn't think he nailed it when he dumped the surprise ending for the more logical. Maximortal I was intrigued by, at first, until I grew tired of the whole scatalogical fixation. Really, the backup piece about Siegel & Shuster (thinly disguised) was more interesting than the main story. The One just never fully clicked with me; different perspectives, mostly.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 10:56:25 GMT -5
With the Watchman and Dark Knight, I felt there was a more mature approach to it, while Gruenwald was a bit trapped in traditional comic book writing. Yes, while I have some pretty strong exuberance in my comments for Squadron Supreme this morning, I actually agree with you. And I'll qualify my comments a little more based on that, my personal tastes run a bit more "family friendly" than some (probably many in fact!), but I mean that in no way as a criticism of what others enjoy. More just to add perspective that a Watchmen is brilliant to me in spite of some edgier content levels thrown in than I would not normally enjoy. For others, Squadron Supreme may be a little too "kiddish" in comparison. But I also think sometimes a Watchmen type comic gets some "extra points" because it throws in some subversiveness, some language, some adult content as it were. I don't quite believe the actual underlying "gravity" of either story is widely far off. And don't get me wrong, Moore was brilliant way beyond those elements. Killer story overall, and yes, really good execution. Though I'll do another "there I said it". If Squadron Supreme had John Buscema on the whole series instead of just #7, I feel like it would have been superior in art. I hate to criticize Mr. Gibbons, but I was never a huge fan of the art on Watchmen and I always dreamt of what if say George Perez had drawn it instead.
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Post by arfetto on May 29, 2022 11:29:20 GMT -5
The fact that the Squadron Supreme maxi-series was more of a traditional superhero comic in style is why I like it so much. To me it had "maturity" in the sense that it was without fuss. It was almost a typical monthly superhero team comic, right down to the melodrama and artist fill-ins. The writing was taking itself "seriously" in forming this straightforward superhero tale mixed with a couple grim realities, but still playing within "the rules". Even though it was taking place in another universe, it was still in continuity (as the Squadron interacted with the main Marvel universe before, during with the Captain America issue, and after this tale) and had weight. But I am biased, because Gruenwald's Quasar is my favorite superhero comic and I enjoyed following the Squadron into Quasar and often wonder what Gruenwald had planned for the group later on (Gruenwald's wife mentioned in one of the tpbs that he had ideas for another Squadron Supreme story but she was never able to find any of his drafts). And I re-read it recently so have it fresh on my mind.
I also understand the "family friendly" aspect mentioned. I can give a good example of that perhaps. I was probably 10 years old when I read Watchmen for example (in tpb form), and I remember feeling sick to my stomach at certain points (mostly stuff involving The Comedian). I also read Squadron Supreme around this time, and I definitely enjoyed it a lot more haha, but it still gave me a lot of things to think about. A superhero comic does not need to be family friendly, but I have a respect for creators going that route.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 12:15:16 GMT -5
The fact that the Squadron Supreme maxi-series was more of a traditional superhero comic in style is why I like it so much. To me it had "maturity" in the sense that it was without fuss. It was almost a typical monthly superhero team comic, right down to the melodrama and artist fill-ins. The writing was taking itself "seriously" in forming this straightforward superhero tale mixed with a couple grim realities, but still playing within "the rules". Even though it was taking place in another universe, it was still in continuity (as the Squadron interacted with the main Marvel universe before, during with the Captain America issue, and after this tale) and had weight. But I am biased, because Gruenwald's Quasar is my favorite superhero comic and I enjoyed following the Squadron into Quasar and often wonder what Gruenwald had planned for the group later on (Gruenwald's wife mentioned in one of the tpbs that he had ideas for another Squadron Supreme story but she was never able to find any of his drafts). And I re-read it recently so have it fresh on my mind. I also understand the "family friendly" aspect mentioned. I can give a good example of that perhaps. I was probably 10 years old when I read Watchmen for example (in tpb form), and I remember feeling sick to my stomach at certain points (mostly stuff involving The Comedian). I also read Squadron Supreme around this time, and I definitely enjoyed it a lot more haha, but it still gave me a lot of things to think about. A superhero comic does not need to be family friendly, but I have a respect for creators going that route. I really like the way you articulated this, and puts nice perspective on where different people might be coming from. In my enthusiasm I jumped right to a somewhat bold comparison, but this better frames the context for me as well.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 15:36:40 GMT -5
Bronze-age Spire Christian comics must be the most 'handled' line of comics ever...hard to find these in high-grade.
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