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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 24, 2023 10:23:59 GMT -5
The Eisners were announced at the SDCC. The winner of the best Writer/Artist was Kate Beaton, Ducks: Two Years in the Oil Sands. Now I have not read this book, so I don't know how well written it is, but to win Writer/Artist, shouldn't the person be able to draw beyong a 5th grade level? Has the Eisners jumped the shark? Because this is just bad art. I'm not even sure what is going on here. The characters are dressed the same. Do they work together? Is this a training session? Well, that is what happens when you take things our of context. Kind of my point, in regards to the art, as you really need to see the entire work to judge it. One panel or one page is not enough when you are talking sequential art for a larger work. If it were just a single page strip, that would be different. I could pull out an individual page of Kirby, or Toth or Moebius and what is happening may be unclear, because it has been isolated from the whole work. The whole discussion here really gets into subjectivity of art. What makes it good or bad is the response, or lack thereof, that it invokes in you. Even if you want to argue technique you are more often than not reducing things to personal taste. Is it lacking because it doesn't have enough fine detail or because you don't care for this style? Is Normal Rockwell a better painter than Monet, because he captured everything or is Monet superior because he could evoke an emotion with just the impression of the thing? There is no right or wrong in that, just your response vs another's. That is why art criticism is little more than I like this or I don't or I want to try to convince you to like this (and pay an outrageous price for it, in a gallery) or I want you to avoid it. I tend to more realistic and illustrative art; but, my responses to more abstract stuff has changed, over time. Everything I have seen here says Beaton is a damned fine storyteller and that is the point of her art, not to look pretty or detailed. Your mileage may vary, which is the way it should be. Everything I have read in this discussion boils down to personal taste.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 24, 2023 10:26:23 GMT -5
I haven't read the book, but I don't think its crude. It's effective cartooning, with clear actions and expressions (see panel 8). Also, the perspectives in panels 5, 6, and 7 are well done and not easy to pull off. I agree with the validity of this kind of art, as a means of storytelling. I mean, Cynicalman is one of my favorite comics, and some really creative storytelling. However, I think Matt Feazell would tell you, when it comes to an award FOR ART specifically, he would not be in the running. It's really absurd that the art shown above won over some other truly incredible artists. I think what you are seeing is politics at work. The Eisners have been overtly political in its nominations and winners for a decade, now. Awards for art, as a concept, are ridiculous. How can you judge two different images or stories against each other? It all boils down to subjective response which makes an award for Best of ridiculous. All it means is that group of people had a stronger response to it...or, as you say, an agenda to promote one thing over another. Awards, quite often, are little more than marketing tools.
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Post by MDG on Jul 24, 2023 12:08:35 GMT -5
I'm not even sure what is going on here. The characters are dressed the same. Do they work together? Is this a training session? Well, that is what happens when you take things our of context. Kind of my point, in regards to the art, as you really need to see the entire work to judge it. One panel or one page is not enough when you are talking sequential art for a larger work. If it were just a single page strip, that would be different. I could pull out an individual page of Kirby, or Toth or Moebius and what is happening may be unclear, because it has been isolated from the whole work. .... I tend to more realistic and illustrative art; but, my responses to more abstract stuff has changed, over time. Everything I have seen here says Beaton is a damned fine storyteller and that is the point of her art, not to look pretty or detailed. Your mileage may vary, which is the way it should be. Everything I have read in this discussion boils down to personal taste. I don't know why the category is "Best writer/artist" and not "best cartoonist," which implies a single individual handling all parts of the story. Even better, "best book by a cartoonist" or something, which would be evaluating the book as a whole.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 24, 2023 13:38:24 GMT -5
Liking or disliking is personal taste, but I think we can be a little objective about the skill and talent of artists. Would anyone really say that Beaton is as good or better an artist than last years winner, Barry Smith? And we are talking just about the art, not her skill as a story teller. We can say that Rob Leifeld is not as good an artist as John Buscema or Neal Adams. We can say that Walt Kelly was a better artist that Cathy Guisewite. It's not just personal taste, and proper criticism can delineate why something is better art. I don't think people interested in art would compare Rockwell and Monet. Monet with Renoir, maybe? Rockwell with Wyeth, sure? But I think the comparison isn't apt.
I just don't go in for post-modernist, nothing is objective, thinking.
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 24, 2023 14:09:22 GMT -5
I haven't read the book, but I don't think its crude. It's effective cartooning, with clear actions and expressions (see panel 8). Also, the perspectives in panels 5, 6, and 7 are well done and not easy to pull off. It's really absurd that the art shown above won over some other truly incredible artists. I think what you are seeing is politics at work. The Eisners have been overtly political in its nominations and winners for a decade, now. That's sort of what I was getting at in my first reply to kirby101 on this topic; yes, artistic value is subjective, but I have noticed some comic book journalists going overboard labeling what some might consider "crude" or "simple" art as "great", especially if the art is rough / crude and the story has some sort of sociopolitical message (as if that kind of art is the best for that sub-genre of storytelling).
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Post by commond on Jul 24, 2023 18:20:50 GMT -5
Liking or disliking is personal taste, but I think we can be a little objective about the skill and talent of artists. Would anyone really say that Beaton is as good or better an artist than last years winner, Barry Smith? And we are talking just about the art, not her skill as a story teller. We can say that Rob Leifeld is not as good an artist as John Buscema or Neal Adams. We can say that Walt Kelly was a better artist that Cathy Guisewite. It's not just personal taste, and proper criticism can delineate why something is better art. I don't think people interested in art would compare Rockwell and Monet. Monet with Renoir, maybe? Rockwell with Wyeth, sure? But I think the comparison isn't apt.
I just don't go in for post-modernist, nothing is objective, thinking.
She wasn't up against Barry Smith, so I don't see how that's relevant. She was up against Sarah Anderson, whose art you'd find even worse than Beaton, French artist, Espé, whose style I'm unfamiliar with, famed Japanese mangaka, Junji Ito, and Zoe Thorogood, who is a cartoonist along the same lines as Beaton. It's important to remember that the Eisners have a different nominating panel each year and that often creates trends in the nominations. Looking at the nominations, it appears that graphic novels by cartoonists caught the attention of the judges and that there was a conscious, or unconscious, push for female representation amongst the nominees. It's also worth noting that the Eisners have separate categories for art, including a best Penciller/Inker section that tends to focus on more traditional comic book penciling. When the Writer/Artist category first began, it was often focused on co-creators such as Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, but they scrapped the award in '97 and when they brought it back in 2009 it was largely centered around graphic novelists such as Chris Ware. There have been past winners with similar styles to Beaton such as Raina Telgemeier and even David Mazzucchelli. I began reading Ducks last night, and so far I'm enjoying it. I don't have a problem with the art in the larger context of the novel. The page you originally showed is from a training sequence at the mine and works better with the setup and payoff included. I don't personally have a problem Beaton winning based on what I've read so far, and I don't think the art is bad in the context of the work Beaton does. It would be odd to have it done in a different style from the author. The tone wouldn't feel right if it were done in a more realistic fashion despite the fact that it deals with some serious matters. Therefore, it's hard to argue that the art and story aren't working hand-in-hand to create the piece.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 24, 2023 18:21:29 GMT -5
Liking or disliking is personal taste, but I think we can be a little objective about the skill and talent of artists. Would anyone really say that Beaton is as good or better an artist than last years winner, Barry Smith? And we are talking just about the art, not her skill as a story teller. We can say that Rob Leifeld is not as good an artist as John Buscema or Neal Adams. We can say that Walt Kelly was a better artist that Cathy Guisewite. It's not just personal taste, and proper criticism can delineate why something is better art. I don't think people interested in art would compare Rockwell and Monet. Monet with Renoir, maybe? Rockwell with Wyeth, sure? But I think the comparison isn't apt.
I just don't go in for post-modernist, nothing is objective, thinking.
I'm not sure how you start with opinion at the top and then end with what you said at the end. You make what is essentially a "Rockwell to Monet is an apples to oranges comparison" at the end but do the same thing by comparing Beaton to Smith as both a radically different styles.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 25, 2023 7:18:47 GMT -5
I am stepping out of this discussion now. I already said that the other pages showed me her work was better than what was on those first pages. But we have gone into tangential debates and things I said about one thing are being referred to in another context. I think this is common on the intrawebs, but I just don't want to get into a whole "No, I said that about this, not that" series of posts. See you in the funny papers.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 25, 2023 8:15:46 GMT -5
I am stepping out of this discussion now. I already said that the other pages showed me her work was better than what was on those first pages. But we have gone into tangential debates and things I said about one thing are being referred to in another context. I think this is common on the intrawebs, but I just don't want to get into a whole "No, I said that about this, not that" series of posts. See you in the funny papers. Your opinion is valid. Just as my admiration for Liefeld is valid.
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Post by badwolf on Jul 25, 2023 8:35:10 GMT -5
Sarah's Scribbles are funny but no way would I put her on any kind of best artist list.
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Post by impulse on Jul 25, 2023 9:54:04 GMT -5
My general take is art is mostly subjective, but an objective line exists somewhere, but hell if I know where to put it. I don't think "simple" necessarily means worse/less-skilled. Some of those landscapes and vehicles driving scenes by Beaton were beautiful IMO. They are like a modern pencil and ink comic-flavored impressionist-esque thing, and it really captured the scene and emotion with "simple" linework. I was pretty impressed, nearly as much as I was unimpressed by those talking head scenes. So yeah, agreed, art is subjective. Oh, I know where the line is! It's on a Liefeld drawing above the ankles.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Jul 25, 2023 12:11:00 GMT -5
If a later writer or story comes along and fixes an earlier bad story or uses that bad story as a springboard to a good story, that does not excuse the original bad story.
It's bizarre how people defend certain stories by citing other stories written decades later. If I say 'making Madelyn Prior into the Goblin Queen in 1988 was a case of victim blaming in order to get Cyclops off the hook for becoming a deadbeat husband and father,' I'll get the response that 'Maddie was always evil, look at what she did to Cyclops in this book that came out in 2008' as if that later story has any bearing on the decision to make her a villain to salvage Cyclops' character 20 years earlier. And if I complain about the effects of bringing Jen Grey back in the 80s, I'll get some nonsensical response about how it's part of some grand arc to explore exactly how she and the Phoenix are connected and 1 and the same as if retcons from 20 years later have any bearing on the original decision or as if writers in the 80s had the same plan as the writers of the last 20 years despite all the interviews they've given about what they actually intended and wanted. And it's not like those later stories are good either.
War Games is a horrible story that character assassinates many characters, most notably Stephanie Brown and Leslie Thompkins. The retcons fixing Steph's death being Leslie's fault to Leslie faking her death to protect her and Brian Miller's use of the story as a springboard for a great series and redemption arc when he wrote Batgirl doesn't excuse anything about War Games.
I hate the New Mutants parts of Inferno for what a terrible ending it was for my favorite character and how it cheated her out of a proper conclusion to her arc. The failures of Inferno allowed for her resurrection and subsequent character development to be so well handled. If her character arc had been wrapped up with the neat bow the way it should have been in Inferno, there would have been no point to bringing her back and, modern comics being modern comics, she probably would have been brought back at some point despite there being no point. And then there would have been nowhere to go since her story was completed, just like how there's been nowhere for her brother Colossus to go in the 20 years since his resurrection. There was story left to tell since the story was left incomplete to begin with. So in the long run, Inferno's failures led to the character's current successes and if Inferno had been the story it should have been if Simonson and her editors had done their jobs then the character would be in a worse place nowadays. And even that doesn't excuse how bad Inferno was or the 2 decades it took for its problems to start to be fixed.
Good writing can come from bad writing, but that does not excuse the original bad writing. 'There. I said it.'
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 25, 2023 15:05:31 GMT -5
I am stepping out of this discussion now. I already said that the other pages showed me her work was better than what was on those first pages. But we have gone into tangential debates and things I said about one thing are being referred to in another context. I think this is common on the intrawebs, but I just don't want to get into a whole "No, I said that about this, not that" series of posts. See you in the funny papers. Your opinion is valid. Just as my admiration for Liefeld is valid. Oh, my opinion is more than valid. I just realized I was debating multiple fronts that intertwined in a confusing way.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 25, 2023 15:52:42 GMT -5
Your opinion is valid. Just as my admiration for Liefeld is valid. Oh, my opinion is more than valid. I just realized I was debating multiple fronts that intertwined in a confusing way. The way you were responding, I thought someone said that Jack Kirby sucked.
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Post by commond on Jul 27, 2023 19:02:00 GMT -5
Remember that time the Punisher fought Doc Doom? Mike Baron's Punisher run is so random, and he lasted on the book for an insanely long time as well. In fact, it's kind of weird to me that he wasn't turfed like some of the other writers at the time. I guess none of the big name artists wanted to draw the Punisher, which seems strange given his reputation as a big seller. The character wound up having three monthly titles and yet couldn't attract a hot artist.
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