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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 19, 2023 13:45:29 GMT -5
I read that when Gerber was negotiating to come back to Howard the Duck , we wanted to discredit the previous stories , but Shooter told him he couldn’t. He chose not to come back. Same with Byrne, he was asked to come to the FF but he wanted to ignore all the stories that happened since he had left. They chose to have Defalco do the book instead. Lots of people that don’t play well with each other in this industry as well as other entertainment industries. Gerber was right to want to do that. Anything done with Howard after Gerber left the book was garbage. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 19, 2023 16:15:11 GMT -5
Companies are made of people. People can be petty if not checked by someone in charge. Which is never going to happen if some of that pettiness is coming from the people in charge. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 19, 2023 16:32:56 GMT -5
I had never made the connection, but you're right... there is a definite trend, there. Do you know if it was deliberate, or was it just because the fashion back then was to kill/maim/write off every character possible, and Marv wasn't there to defend his babies? It sure felt deliberate, especially considering what they did to Harold H. Harold, who was clearly Marv's self-created comic book counterpart, in Howard the Duck (the magazine) #5.
Cei-U! I summon the low blow!
I've never regretted my decision to stop following Marvel comics back in the early 1980s and hearing stuff like this just reinforces that feeling. Not that there aren't one or two things I might go back and look at one of these days - e.g. the last part of the Miller DD run, which I quit around half-way through, perhaps some of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers - but they're few and far between and I feel only mild curiosity even about those few.
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 19, 2023 17:05:38 GMT -5
I read that when Gerber was negotiating to come back to Howard the Duck , we wanted to discredit the previous stories , but Shooter told him he couldn’t. He chose not to come back. Same with Byrne, he was asked to come to the FF but he wanted to ignore all the stories that happened since he had left. They chose to have Defalco do the book instead. Lots of people that don’t play well with each other in this industry as well as other entertainment industries. Gerber and Byrne should have realized that nothing short of a hard reboot of a title was going to disregard any part of a comic's run. There was no COIE-style event which would have opened the door to consider their demands. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 19, 2023 17:22:51 GMT -5
I read that when Gerber was negotiating to come back to Howard the Duck , we wanted to discredit the previous stories , but Shooter told him he couldn’t. He chose not to come back. Same with Byrne, he was asked to come to the FF but he wanted to ignore all the stories that happened since he had left. They chose to have Defalco do the book instead. Lots of people that don’t play well with each other in this industry as well as other entertainment industries. Gerber and Byrne should have realized that nothing short of a hard reboot of a title was going to disregard any part of a comic's run. There was no COIE-style event which would have opened the door to consider their demands. Paging Mr. Pocket Universe... |
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Post by Batflunkie on Sept 19, 2023 17:24:45 GMT -5
I read that when Gerber was negotiating to come back to Howard the Duck , we wanted to discredit the previous stories , but Shooter told him he couldn’t. He chose not to come back. What made him want to come back and do the HTD MAX series I wonder? But yeah, I don't mind the other contributions to Howard, but they just feel inauthentic when compared to Gerber. |
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Post by commond on Sept 19, 2023 17:29:50 GMT -5
I read that when Gerber was negotiating to come back to Howard the Duck , we wanted to discredit the previous stories , but Shooter told him he couldn’t. He chose not to come back. Same with Byrne, he was asked to come to the FF but he wanted to ignore all the stories that happened since he had left. They chose to have Defalco do the book instead. Lots of people that don’t play well with each other in this industry as well as other entertainment industries. Gerber and Byrne should have realized that nothing short of a hard reboot of a title was going to disregard any part of a comic's run. There was no COIE-style event which would have opened the door to consider their demands. I thought Bill Mantlo's Howard the Duck run was fine for what it was, but he made significant changes to the status quo. I don't see how it's out of the question for Gerber to reverse, or simply ignore, those changes. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 19, 2023 19:04:25 GMT -5
It sure felt deliberate, especially considering what they did to Harold H. Harold, who was clearly Marv's self-created comic book counterpart, in Howard the Duck (the magazine) #5.
Cei-U! I summon the low blow!
I've never regretted my decision to stop following Marvel comics back in the early 1980s and hearing stuff like this just reinforces that feeling. Not that there aren't one or two things I might go back and look at one of these days - e.g. the last part of the Miller DD run, which I quit around half-way through, perhaps some of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers - but they're few and far between and I feel only mild curiosity even about those few.
My reading petered out by 1983, with only sporadic dips into Marvel's books (usually mini-series or one-shots, with the odd series). The more Shooter became iron-fisted about what he wanted in a story and the more the people I liked left, the less I had a reason to read their wares. Some of that, though, is finding more alternatives in the independents, like Jon Sable and American Flagg, and Maze Agency, Grendel, and Scout; as well as DC opening up the creative flow in 1986. The irony is that Marvel dipped into the Direct Market earlier; but I found myself moving further and further away from them, the more I experienced that market. Age was a certain factor, too. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 19, 2023 19:19:48 GMT -5
I've never regretted my decision to stop following Marvel comics back in the early 1980s and hearing stuff like this just reinforces that feeling. Not that there aren't one or two things I might go back and look at one of these days - e.g. the last part of the Miller DD run, which I quit around half-way through, perhaps some of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers - but they're few and far between and I feel only mild curiosity even about those few.
My reading petered out by 1983, with only sporadic dips into Marvel's books (usually mini-series or one-shots, with the odd series). The more Shooter became iron-fisted about what he wanted in a story and the more the people I liked left, the less I had a reason to read their wares. Some of that, though, is finding more alternatives in the independents, like Jon Sable and American Flagg, and Maze Agency, Grendel, and Scout; as well as DC opening up the creative flow in 1986. The irony is that Marvel dipped into the Direct Market earlier; but I found myself moving further and further away from them, the more I experienced that market. Age was a certain factor, too. People have a lot of reasons to stop reading comics. Lack of quality is a poor one because I can name 20 titles that were great after the 80's. In 2023, you might abandon the big two because they lost their passion to make good comics and they exist only to keep the IP going. There are other publishers and creators making good books. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 19, 2023 19:43:10 GMT -5
My reading petered out by 1983, with only sporadic dips into Marvel's books (usually mini-series or one-shots, with the odd series). The more Shooter became iron-fisted about what he wanted in a story and the more the people I liked left, the less I had a reason to read their wares. Some of that, though, is finding more alternatives in the independents, like Jon Sable and American Flagg, and Maze Agency, Grendel, and Scout; as well as DC opening up the creative flow in 1986. The irony is that Marvel dipped into the Direct Market earlier; but I found myself moving further and further away from them, the more I experienced that market. Age was a certain factor, too. People have a lot of reasons to stop reading comics. Lack of quality is a poor one because I can name 20 titles that were great after the 80's. In 2023, you might abandon the big two because they lost their passion to make good comics and they exist only to keep the IP going. There are other publishers and creators making good books. My experience was that the overall quality of Marvel, that I perceived, had dipped precipitously low and they offered little or nothing for my interests. The best artists had abandoned them, with the notable exception of Walt Simonson and I was never a big Thor fan. I did not really look at his work there until much later. By contrast, DC hard a sharp upturn in quality and freedom to create that was really palpable and resulted in a ton of regular series for me and more special projects. That started to wear out by the early 90s, as that initial burst wore out and they settled into the same old thing. My reading was always more than just superheroes and Marvel, in the 80s and beyond, didn't offer a whole lot to satisfy that. I discovered the Nam, later, largely because I never cared much for Marvel's attempts at war comics, including a lot of Sgt Fury. I had runs of Fury; but more specific eras of it, including Gary Friedrich and Dick Ayers and John Severin. DC outdid them on that front and even when I had discovered The Nam, Don Lomax's Vietnam Journal was better and had no editorial interference. Meanwhile, Dark Horse was feeding my interests quite well, for a long time, with superheroes, spies, sci-fi, horror, humor, adventure and other genres, with quality packaging and fewer palace intrigues. Eclipse was a favorite for a long time, before internal strife and Mother Nature destroyed them. First got a lot of my dollars, before editorial changes and bad business decisions ended their run. Valiant captured my interest for a year or two. Marvel was the most static through that period. Lack of quality is the perfect reason to not read a companies product, when you see that lack of quality across the broad spectrum of their line. That doesn't mean I didn't read a Marvel comic; just a very select few, for a very long time, before some changes at the top brought changes in the material. With DC, I never quite had the same experience, until the Didio regime and I found fewer things I liked; though, again, occasionally, something grabbed my interest. By the late 90s and early 00s, I read few superhero comics because most felt like, "Been there, read that!" I still read a select few, though, though more from other companies or from specific creators who brought something new or more interesting to the table. You may be able to name 20 titles from the 80s that you thought were great; but, that is your subjective experience. It doesn't represent mine. Neither experience is an absolute truth because there is no absolute when it comes to story and art, except that it appeals to you or it doesn't. Art is a thoroughly subjective experience. Meanwhile, I loved war comics growing up; but, my sense on this board is that I am in a very small minority, with that genre, apart from some specific titles or features. Is it then so surprising that I might also hold a minority opinion on 80s Marvel? I'm a strange and opinionated cat! |
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Post by impulse on Sept 20, 2023 9:38:32 GMT -5
she ended up in another book, where we learned that she had a bad romance, broke up, tried to reconstruct herself, and then fell under the spell of a villain ("body and soul", of course!) until she died a pointless death. I'll let you guess who wrote that. Let's see... so prior characterization was ignored, pointless romance plots, and her will was dominated by someone... without being familiar with the character I'd have to guess Claremont.  (I also saw below she died in an X-Men annual which was a major clue). |
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Post by tonebone on Sept 21, 2023 15:28:14 GMT -5
I've never regretted my decision to stop following Marvel comics back in the early 1980s and hearing stuff like this just reinforces that feeling. Not that there aren't one or two things I might go back and look at one of these days - e.g. the last part of the Miller DD run, which I quit around half-way through, perhaps some of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers - but they're few and far between and I feel only mild curiosity even about those few.
My reading petered out by 1983, with only sporadic dips into Marvel's books (usually mini-series or one-shots, with the odd series). The more Shooter became iron-fisted about what he wanted in a story and the more the people I liked left, the less I had a reason to read their wares. Some of that, though, is finding more alternatives in the independents, like Jon Sable and American Flagg, and Maze Agency, Grendel, and Scout; as well as DC opening up the creative flow in 1986. The irony is that Marvel dipped into the Direct Market earlier; but I found myself moving further and further away from them, the more I experienced that market. Age was a certain factor, too. I stopped buying comics regularly in 1986 when I started college. I had no more disposable income, discovered girls, and sold my collection to pay for trips, etc. I bought two or three comics during the 5 years of college... and after graduation, after getting a job and out on my own, I became more interested in what was out there... and was really really turned off by what was now being produced... but was very attracted to collected editions, TPBs, etc. Haven't bought floppies, since, save for the odd back issue, etc. My wife would buy me stacks of TPBs on ebay for holidays, and now I have a big collection of about 700+ books (and a wife who now understands she created a monster). |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 21, 2023 21:17:09 GMT -5
My reading petered out by 1983, with only sporadic dips into Marvel's books (usually mini-series or one-shots, with the odd series). The more Shooter became iron-fisted about what he wanted in a story and the more the people I liked left, the less I had a reason to read their wares. Some of that, though, is finding more alternatives in the independents, like Jon Sable and American Flagg, and Maze Agency, Grendel, and Scout; as well as DC opening up the creative flow in 1986. The irony is that Marvel dipped into the Direct Market earlier; but I found myself moving further and further away from them, the more I experienced that market. Age was a certain factor, too. I stopped buying comics regularly in 1986 when I started college. I had no more disposable income, discovered girls, and sold my collection to pay for trips, etc. I bought two or three comics during the 5 years of college... and after graduation, after getting a job and out on my own, I became more interested in what was out there... and was really really turned off by what was now being produced... but was very attracted to collected editions, TPBs, etc. Haven't bought floppies, since, save for the odd back issue, etc. My wife would buy me stacks of TPBs on ebay for holidays, and now I have a big collection of about 700+ books (and a wife who now understands she created a monster). My reading slowly petered out in the 80s, in high school; but, college was where I discovered my first comic store. My freshman year (1984-85) I picked up some cheap back issues; but not much else. The following year, there was a store up near campus and that changed things. Summer of 1986 is where I started picking up new stuff, and digging more into the indies. Not huge buying, but steady. Luckily, my scholarship covered everything but room and board. I had a part time job and that covered comics and discretionary spending, plus I received active duty pay while on midshipman training cruises, over the summer. When I graduated in 1988, I got my stuff via mail order, until I was at a permanent duty station and set up a subscription. If you look at the 30 and 40 years ago threads, you can see my comic buying build to a peak, then start to decline, after I got out of the military, in 1992. It took a few years; but, by 1996, it is decreasing rapidly. |
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Post by tonebone on Sept 22, 2023 7:43:23 GMT -5
I stopped buying comics regularly in 1986 when I started college. I had no more disposable income, discovered girls, and sold my collection to pay for trips, etc. I bought two or three comics during the 5 years of college... and after graduation, after getting a job and out on my own, I became more interested in what was out there... and was really really turned off by what was now being produced... but was very attracted to collected editions, TPBs, etc. Haven't bought floppies, since, save for the odd back issue, etc. My wife would buy me stacks of TPBs on ebay for holidays, and now I have a big collection of about 700+ books (and a wife who now understands she created a monster). My reading slowly petered out in the 80s, in high school; but, college was where I discovered my first comic store. My freshman year (1984-85) I picked up some cheap back issues; but not much else. The following year, there was a store up near campus and that changed things. Summer of 1986 is where I started picking up new stuff, and digging more into the indies. Not huge buying, but steady. Luckily, my scholarship covered everything but room and board. I had a part time job and that covered comics and discretionary spending, plus I received active duty pay while on midshipman training cruises, over the summer. When I graduated in 1988, I got my stuff via mail order, until I was at a permanent duty station and set up a subscription. If you look at the 30 and 40 years ago threads, you can see my comic buying build to a peak, then start to decline, after I got out of the military, in 1992. It took a few years; but, by 1996, it is decreasing rapidly. Ha. I, too, saw my first comics store while in college. It was not impressive. It was in the crummiest part of town, it was dark, musty, cramped, and the owner/employee was always mad/grumpy. It was a textbook for OSHA violations. It was so small and cramped, that there was literally no room for two people to pass each other. The parking was in the back alley behind a pawn shop and BINGO parlor, strewn with trash and broken palettes. I was 50 before I ever saw a clean, well-lit store. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 22, 2023 11:19:36 GMT -5
My reading slowly petered out in the 80s, in high school; but, college was where I discovered my first comic store. My freshman year (1984-85) I picked up some cheap back issues; but not much else. The following year, there was a store up near campus and that changed things. Summer of 1986 is where I started picking up new stuff, and digging more into the indies. Not huge buying, but steady. Luckily, my scholarship covered everything but room and board. I had a part time job and that covered comics and discretionary spending, plus I received active duty pay while on midshipman training cruises, over the summer. When I graduated in 1988, I got my stuff via mail order, until I was at a permanent duty station and set up a subscription. If you look at the 30 and 40 years ago threads, you can see my comic buying build to a peak, then start to decline, after I got out of the military, in 1992. It took a few years; but, by 1996, it is decreasing rapidly. Ha. I, too, saw my first comics store while in college. It was not impressive. It was in the crummiest part of town, it was dark, musty, cramped, and the owner/employee was always mad/grumpy. It was a textbook for OSHA violations. It was so small and cramped, that there was literally no room for two people to pass each other. The parking was in the back alley behind a pawn shop and BINGO parlor, strewn with trash and broken palettes. I was 50 before I ever saw a clean, well-lit store. My first one was a used bookstore and comic shop, also sold lottery tickets. Located downtown, near the main post office; had seen better days and the neighborhood not too far beyond was sketchy. Unemployment office just up the street a couple of blocks, military surplus store about a block or two the other direction. The store owner was a major part of the local Doctor Who fan club and would appear with them, during pledge drives, on the university's PBS station, as they manned phones and the station aired special Doctor Who episodes (this was the end of the Baker years and start of Davison, plus the 25th Anniversary). The following year, a much better store opened just off campus, above a music store, with a wider selection of back issues and a newsstand that included a lot of the indies. That summer, I had bought the early issues of Man of Steel and Dark Knight, plus a bunch of stuff, in St Louis, after I came back from cruise. I was able to pick C was launching their post-Crisis new series, like the Mike Baron Flash, the regular Superman titles and so on. Plus, I discovered Scout and Miracleman there, plus Airboy and a few other Eclipse books. Also was able to catch up on Watchmen pretty quickly. |
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