Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 14, 2016 23:41:34 GMT -5
Mantis is the biggest Mary Sue in comics. I just can't with that.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 15, 2016 11:45:35 GMT -5
This one concedes other one's point. But this one still thinks that one's dialogue is the fault of one who wrote stories. This one is confused by that one, not to mention the one down the street.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 15, 2016 12:02:54 GMT -5
Can I just say that I absolutely despise the term "Mary Sue." It appears to have no set meaning beyond..."I don't like this character."
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 15, 2016 13:45:07 GMT -5
Can I just say that I absolutely despise the term "Mary Sue." It appears to have no set meaning beyond..."I don't like this character." I thought that it meant an idealized stand-in for the author. I don't think Steve Englehart sees himself as a Vietnamese whore but, y'know, I could be wrong. Scott knows more about the Avengers than I do.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 15, 2016 13:54:04 GMT -5
Can I just say that I absolutely despise the term "Mary Sue." It appears to have no set meaning beyond..."I don't like this character." I thought that it meant an idealized stand-in for the author. I don't think Steve Englehart sees himself as a Vietnamese whore but, y'know, I could be wrong. Scott knows more about the Avengers than I do. That's one of many ways it's used. But it's used in at least a half dozen different ways. Mostly it just means "I don't like this character."
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 15, 2016 14:02:42 GMT -5
Can I just say that I absolutely despise the term "Mary Sue." It appears to have no set meaning beyond..."I don't like this character." I thought that it meant an idealized stand-in for the author. I don't think Steve Englehart sees himself as a Vietnamese whore but, y'know, I could be wrong. Scott knows more about the Avengers than I do. He doesn't, but I certainly do! I don't want to derail the thread any further, but, uh, I guess I'm going to. I think Mantis is an absolutely textbook Mary Sue in the original sense of the term. Here's a 1976 definition, as cited by wikipedia, referring to its origins in Star Trek fanfic: "Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three, if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship." Mary Sues were originally these pet characters, usually young women - often but not always seen as wish fulfillment stand-ins for the author - who would swoop in, become the object of everyone's affection and the center of attention, and save everybody by being so incredibly awesome, in the process becoming the focal point of the story at the expense of the other, usually more established and popular, characters. That's Mantis all over. Her introduction to the team in Avengers #114 is a textbook case, where she defeats the entire team, including Thor, using kung-fu. They all agree she's so great they have to let her join. Then, she immediately becomes the object of romantic attention, not just from her supposed paramour Swordsman, but from Vision and maybe others (thank god, I am finally starting to forget some of the details of this crap). The whole series revolves around her from the point of her introduction, first in terms of character stuff with the romantic quadrangle subplot, and then also in terms of plot beginning with #123 and continuing through the Celestial Madonna storyline. That story was a classic and almost justified her Mary Sue-ness, but then Englehart took things to incredible, unprecedented levels by dragging her with him to every single comic he wrote for the next three decades. To me, she's the symbol of the insufferable egotism of creators in the 70's, the worst of Bronze Age excess. Even worse than those damn Rutland stories - one of which, of course, she also appears in. And I actually like Englehart!
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 15, 2016 14:35:21 GMT -5
That's not completely right though and you're missing a lot of shades of grey. She basically threw herself at the Vision, who was tempted but then rebuffed her for his One True Love. I'd rate the Vision as more important to Englehart's Avengers run than Mantis - he was there for the whole thing, gets a 14 part origin story (I slightly exaggerate) and his relationship with Wanda was the emotional spine of Englehart's whole run, while Mantis isn't depicted as being capable of adult, romantic love (at least until her last couple issues.)
She beat the Avengers in her first appearance based on element of surprise, but was pretty much inconsequentialal against Doctor Strange in the Avengers/Defenders war.
She does end up being the Celestial Madonna, but (A) she doesn't actually DO much during the whole story-arc - If I remember right she spends most of her time captured with Agatha Harkness and Wanda, and (B) alongside her promotion to Madonna-hood comes a lot of self-realization about what a terrible person she was.
I might be a little biased - Steve Englehart's '70s Marvel stuff is my absolute favorite superhero writing that doesn't involve the original creators, and I thought his Avengers stuff hit a level of depth and complexity in his character work that was really unknown in American mainstream comics 'till that point. The second half of his Avengers run - as Tell Don't Show-y as it is, for issues on end - is still my favorite work on the title. And I think Mantis evolution and development, and the way it used flashbacks to define a still-changing character, was brilliantly handled.
And her appearance in Justice League was cute.
Haven't really read any of her late appearances, except for a couple of (bad) issues of the Silver Surfer.
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Post by MDG on Jan 15, 2016 15:48:52 GMT -5
And I actually like Englehart! Ever read this? He also had a couple of prose stories in Byron Priess's Weird Heroes anthologies.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 15, 2016 15:52:48 GMT -5
And I actually like Englehart! Ever read this? He also had a couple of prose stories in Byron Priess's Weird Heroes anthologies. I have it (or at least had, I haven't seen it for years). Don't recall much about it, but I remember liking it. Wasn't the main character a radio DJ that used the name Barnaby Wilde (as in the song "Born to be Wild")? And something about magic through sex?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 15:57:58 GMT -5
And I actually like Englehart! Ever read this? He also had a couple of prose stories in Byron Priess's Weird Heroes anthologies. He's since written several sequels to the Point Man (The Long Man, The Plain Man, The Arena Man) beginning around 2010. -M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 15, 2016 16:49:33 GMT -5
Can I just say that I absolutely despise the term "Mary Sue." It appears to have no set meaning beyond..."I don't like this character." When I say "Mary Sue," "Marty Stu," or "Gary Stu" I mean a character who naively enters the story and is somehow accidentally perfect in every way through no effort of their own and is acknowledged as being amazing by everyone around them, gaining validation from the greats that is entirely undeserved. It's cheap fantasy empowerment either to serve the author's own personal whim or to shamelessly pander to the audience's most simplistic fantasies while simultaneously insulting their intelligence. Star Wars Episode I Anakin Skywalker is a classic example of a Mary Sue. Mary Sues are often confused with Neutral Masks. Both are attempts to involve the reader more directly in the story via a character written to be just like you or me, but a Neutral Mask character (Luke Skywalker or Rey, for example) ultimately has to earn their victories, whereas a Mary Sue can do no wrong. A GREAT video explaining The Neutral Mask (NSFW):
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 15, 2016 17:16:58 GMT -5
And I actually like Englehart! Ever read this? He also had a couple of prose stories in Byron Priess's Weird Heroes anthologies. I have a copy somewhere but haven't actually read it.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 16, 2016 21:15:18 GMT -5
Millennium #1 "Over" writer: Steve Englehart layouts: Joe Staton finishes: Ian Gibson letters: Bob Lappan colors: Carl Gafford editor: Andy Helfer I'm going to resist the temptation to comment on Millennium itself (both the ambitious concept and the already clearly flawed execution), and instead keep my focus on this being an important appearance of the Justice League. Really, the significance of this issue is just that it sets up Justice League International #9 (which, I suspect, will be easy to figure out even without having read this), but there are also a few minor tidbits worth noting. For one, I'm frankly impressed at how seemlessly Englehart moves the team into this story, clearly acknowledging the move from JLA to JLI, depicting Guy with his reversed personality: presenting Rocket Red and Captain Atom as the newbies: and even tying up a few loose ends for the team, including reminding us that there are still members from the previous Justice League team out there, feeling jaded over the whole business: and even FINALLY acknowledging that Batman has membership in two different superhero teams at the same time: And yet, even with Andy Helfer editing, there are two errors in the panels above. First off, why is Doctor Fate still acting like a member of the team throughout much of this issue when he quit without even telling anyone at the end of Justice League #7, and why does Batman seem primarily affiliated with the Justice League (he arrives with them, not the Outsiders) when he backed off of full-time duty at the end of Justice League #7 as well? There are ways to explain away both issues, but it sure seems like someone didn't get the message somewhere. Also worth noting is that the team is shown having at least one adventure as the JLI previous to this story. In their own title, we've not yet seen them take on a mission as Justice League International. And where is Rocket Red in that panel? And who's on the lower right?? But, of course, the big moment for The JLI comes on the last page, where we get the setup for JLI #9: Rocket Red was the infiltrator?? Who knew? It certainly wasn't given away in the solicit in the back of JLI #8 or anything. And I hope they'll explain that one. Some of the other sleeper agents made sense, but how could The Manhunters have possibly known Rocket Red 7, specifically, would end up on The Justice League at this point? Their leader even acknowledges he had no idea when or why he'd activate the sleeper agents when the program was first initiated. And why is it that every time they add a foreign superhero to the team, he/she ends up getting ejected after only a few issues? Dr. Light never even got to suit up, and now Rocket Red 7 is tapped as a sleeper agent for the bad guys before he even gets a chance to take off his helmet. Anyway, not much to this one. We'll see if the rest of the Millennium storyline is any more worth reading for the sake of these reviews. Plot synopsis:
All you really need to know is that The Manhunters, the original failed soldiers for the Oans, have sleeper agents all over Earth, and they are being activated to stop one Guardian and his mate from creating a new race of immortals on Earth to replace the current Guardians. Rocket Red 7 is one of these sleeper agents.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 0:14:09 GMT -5
I think the character in the lower right next to Mr. Miracle in that panel you asked about is supposed to be Oberon, but not positive.
-M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 17, 2016 0:42:05 GMT -5
I think the character in the lower right next to Mr. Miracle in that panel you asked about is supposed to be Oberon, but not positive. -M That was my first thought, too. It could be his head. But the body is too large and appears to be wearing armor(?)
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